PlaneFan
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:35 am

AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:47 am

I know that AA is phasing out the F100 on all routes. Does anyone know the minimum runway length a 738 needs for takeoff/landing? I saw a 738 at HPN recently and was pleasantly surprised. I know that the main runway used for jets at HPN is 6548 ft.

I presumed that with the AA F100 phase-out, it would be all regionals there from ORD (as United has already moved to from 733's/735's) but was very happy to see some 738 service as well as regionals from AA.

Anyone on the runway length?

 
MAH4546
Posts: 24523
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:58 am

AA kept the 738 on two of the six daily HPN-ORD flights because of high F class demand. The original plan was to have 4 daily M80s and 2 daily 738s, but because of aircraft allocation issues, they had to put CRJ-700s instead of the M80s. There are rumours that a daily MIA-HPN 738 flight may be started in the future...
a.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:05 am

Is the 738 the largest airliner to serve HPN?

I think that an HPN-MIA flight would be a winner....people in Westchester would certainly pay premium fares to fly out of convenient HPN, and most have the money to do it. Didn't Air Florida fly from HPN to Florida at one point....its surprising that no carrier is now flying between HPN and Florida destinations as there certainly is demand. I realize that HPN is a difficult airport (or should I say, the neighboring communities are difficult), but HPN-Florida service seems like a given.
 
LY4XELD
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:10 am

I used to live across the Hudson River in the flight path for HPN. I'm sure noise issues are a major factor in choosing a/c that fly into the area. Greenwich residents and those in the expensive areas around HPN have a large influence on what goes in and out of HPN.

I saw many F100's flying overhead, but not the 738s...but now I live in DFW and can see all the AA jets I want  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
That's why we're here.
 
CV990A
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:04 am

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:13 am

The runway at HPN is in the area of 6500 ft (I can't remember the exact length- kinda pathetic as I flew out of there for 8-odd years) but I have seen Trump's 721 there as well as numerous BBJs, so I would presume it is long enough- especially for a flight to ORD.
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Cubsrule
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:22 am

I'm not sure about power plant differences, but TZ's 738s, which ought to weigh more than AA's due to winglets and the faily tight all-coach configuration, routinely use the 6422 foot 4R-22L at MDW.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Big777jet
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:57 am

DutchJet-

Wow!!! I totally forgot about Air Florida flew to HPN many years ago. You were right! God, I can't remember where they fly from HPN to Florida nonstop. I think maybe TPA or MCO. I'm not sure. I have a lot old timetables any airline in my basement I still don't know if I have there. I'll look for it this weekend.

Big777jet


 
John
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:08 am

LGA is only 500 feet longer and they handle widebodies and as mentioned, MDW's runways are 6400' and they handle 738s and 753s on a regular basis. AND how about SNA (5700 feet)! 757s and 73G galore from that runway...no problem! AND many long haul flights, too!
 
ckfred
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:27 am

After Air Florida folded, the original Midway (ML) bought the assets (737s, gate space, etc.). For what ever reason, HPN didn't want Midway serving the airport. I think it wound up in court as part of the bankruptcy proceedings, and I seem to recall that the judge slammed the airport authority. So ML wound up flying the 737-200s to Florida, as well as MDW.
 
jetstar
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:35 am

"There are rumors that a daily MIA-HPN 738 flight may be started in the future..."

I doubt AA or any airline will fly nonstop to Florida from HPN because there is a 900 mile perimeter rule. ORD is just over this mileage and is allowed.

This rule was part of the agreement with Westchester County and the NIMBY’s who live in the adjacent towns when the airlines fought to operate from HPN. This was to prevent airlines from flying trans cons from HPN.

The Air Florida flights to FLL were not non-stops. I was on a couple of these flights in the early 1980’s and they stopped in DCA and JAX,

 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:43 am

doubt AA or any airline will fly nonstop to Florida from HPN because there is a 900 mile perimeter rule. ORD is just over this mileage and is allowed.


There is a perimeter rule, but if AA presented a case, then it could be bypassed, just like it is for O'Hare. I don't think MIA-HPN is on AA's priority list, but it's a big market from HPN (the O&D numbers don't show because most travelers perfer to take a non-stop from LGA or JFK), and would do very well for them.

If AA came out with a serious proposal to fly a daily HPN-MIA 738 service, I can see them being able to get around the perimeter rule if they were to present a good proposal to the community. I fly between MIA/FLL and HPN often, and I'm not the only one that would love to see such a service.
a.
 
lat41
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am

I am not familiar with the perimeter rule in place, but whomever imposed it or devised it knew exactly what they wanted to fit inside and outside the circle for sure.
As far as the runway goes at White Plains, as long as it's not too hot and humid, the aircraft is not carrying too much freight and mail and fuel in addition to its passenger load, 6450' is plenty for that aircraft and many others even a 757 to travel 900 miles. It's amazing to look at some of the long segments that are operated by different carriers from BUR and SNA for instance with 6500' and 5700' runways, albeit with some weight management, I'm sure.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:50 am

Anybody want to check the Great Circle Mapper? According to that, HPN-ORD comes in at a grand total of (ironically) 738 miles, and yes, I checked statue miles...
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AAR90
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:08 am

Does anyone know the minimum runway length a 738 needs for takeoff/landing?

Depending upon weight... not very much length at all. HPN is a "no brainer" for 738 drivers.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
jetstar
Posts: 1366
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RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:55 am

AA will not get their way if they wanted to fly HPN-MIA nonstop. The perimeter rule is a county law, and another law has a maximum of 240 passengers per half hour for airline arrivals, that’s not actual passenger count, but the number of seats on the airplanes. At present all the arrival quotas are taken for larger aircraft but with NW and UA replacing mainline jets with RJ’s there is probably room for a couple more RJ flights during the day.

HPN abuts some very wealthy communities, including Greenwich CT, one of the most affluent towns in the US. The NIMBY’s around HPN have a very powerful voice, are well funded and have made life miserable for HPN operations. There has been a movement for over 30 years by some NIMBY’s and local politicians to close HPN completely and turn it into a park.

While the present county executive is not pro airport, he is no Chicago Mayor Daly either and realizes how important HPN is to Westchester County’s economy, but he is on record for not allowing any more airline flights or physical expansion of the airport. Some NIMBY’s fear that if the airlines had their way, HPN would become another LGA

On the other hand some of the largest corporations in the US base their corporate jets at HPN and have told the county that the only reason their headquarters are in the area is because of their easy access to HPN, with about half the corporations based just over the border in Connecticut from Greenwich to Stamford and Norwalk. So there is economic pressure from the corporations to keep HPN open. GE, because of the NIMBY’s was not allowed to build a new hangar for their BBJ’s and moved their operations to a new hangar at Stewart Intl. Airport, but they still kept and use their old hangar at HPN.

There are no flight restrictions on corporate aircraft flight operations other than a nighttime curfew and they routinely fly from HPN to the west coast and Europe nonstop from HPN.

It took the county almost 20 years to be able to replace the old World War 2 Quonset hut that was the airline terminal with a new terminal. The NIMBY’s held up construction with numerous lawsuits and the county was forced to reduce the size of the terminal and the aircraft gate area which limits the size of the aircraft the airlines can operate into HPN before they got approval. Another part of the agreement limits the gates to 4, and not all have jetways

The NIMBY’s also prevented the airport from cutting down tall trees that were just off the end of runway 29, the small runway. The trees are on private property in Greenwich CT and the airport is in New York so the property owner turned to the Connecticut courts to successfully block the airport from cutting the trees on his property, totally disregarding the fact that the FAA recommended the trees be cut down in the name of safety. Because of this Runway 29 now has a displaced threshold limiting its landing operations to small airplanes.
 
lat41
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:39 pm

HPN sounds like Providence! The NIMBYS hope to bleed it or impede it any way they can and blame any host of social and mental and physical ills they can on the airport. Politicians love the lightening rod they get from an airport in their midst and pander to this crowd.
 
tcttx
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 1999 11:40 am

RE: AA 738's At HPN

Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:56 pm

Is the perimeter rule really 900mi b/c HPN-MSP is over 1000mi IIRC.

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