Guest

The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 2:50 am

I know this has been debated in the forum in the past, but one thing is not very clear to me - when is Qantas really expected to make its final decision on whether to order the A340NG or the 777X? It's been studying the options so far, I believe, and is looking to order a/c with a capacity halfway between that of a 747 and a 767 in the near future.
 
CX747
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 4:16 am

Everything points towards the 777-200LR and 777-300ER. Qantas operates an entire Boeing fleet and from what I have heard no one in the company wants Airbus.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 8:06 am

I'd agree with CX747 100% - Qantas has been a Boeing customer for God knows how long. You see, Qantas didn't keep those A300s in service very long after they were acquired during the takeover of Australian Airlines! This tells me one thing - Qantas doesn't want Airbuses in its fleet! I saw them at Brisbane International Airport once during a plane change on the way to Sydney. The A300s looked a bit strange in Qantas colors - I prefer seeing the 767s in Qantas colors. The 777X would be a very nice addition to Qantas' all-Boeing fleet! I hope the decision will be made sometimes this year.
 
dalecary
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 02, 2000 1:01 pm

Qantas will make a decision on whether to purchase a 300 seat aircraft around May this year. They have been thru the process twice before and decided against a new aircraft type and this could happen again, but is becoming less and less likely. I dont know about the 777-300ER but I suspect there will be an order for 200ERs and 200LRs. QF is very interested in the 767-400 as well. It is possible they will order more 744s and 767-400s as the new aircraft type.
Airbus is not entirely out of the picture
 
Guest

RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Sun Mar 05, 2000 3:38 pm

This was the situation 2 weeks ago!

WEST AUSTRALIAN NEWSPAPER

Qantas has an engineering team in the Us and France evaluating new models of the 300-seat Airbus A340 and the Boeing 777 that will fly from London to Perth and Perth to Hawaii non-stop.

The airline made requests last month to Boeing and Airbus for Ultra long range planes that could make Australia almost non stop to the world.

Airbus is considered the frontrunner with its 300-seat A340-500 powered by Rolls-Royce engines. Its first plane will fly next year and enter service with Singapore Airlines in 2002.

Boeing is late out of the blocks but claimsits 777-200LR will fly faster, higher and farther than the Airbus and be delivered in 2003.

British Airways, Singapore Airlines and Malaysia Airlines are thought to be among the launch customers. The Airbuss A340-500 is favoured among Qantas management pilots because of its four engines but Boeing claims the reliability of engines today is unprecedented.

The Boeing 777-200LR would slash 3 hours off the flying time from Perth-London route, tracking north-west over the southern tip of India, across the Middle East and Southern Europe, avoiding severe weather over Indonesia, the Bay of Bengal and North India.

The route is far less congested than those over north India, enabling pilots greater freedom to select altitudes for a smoother ride.

Qantas' evaluation team is due back in Australia this week and will make recommendations to the board.
 
pandora
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PerthWA

Sun Mar 05, 2000 4:41 pm

PerthWA:

QANTAS is likely to buy Boeing 777LRs and ERs and -300ERs and a mix of
767-400.

according to surf.to/orders commerical airliners website, QANTAS is
likely to buy the 737NG.
 
v jet
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Sun Mar 05, 2000 6:27 pm

Qantas is not really likely to buy the 737NG just yet as the oldest 733 is only 14 years old this year.
 
Guest

RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Sun Mar 05, 2000 7:56 pm

Ah, but V-Jet, you forget that the 737NG has better range(means better fuel efficiency!) than the 737 Classics(- 300/400/500) that Qantas already has! That's why the Canadian discount carrier WestJet wanted the 737-600 and the -700s! Like my country, yours is pretty big! (Western Canada does have a similar population density to NSW, QLD and VIC. Except for two inland cities rapidly approaching a million in population each - Edmonton and Calgary!)

In short, the 737NG could do Perth to Sydney - that's a similar distance from Vancouver to Toronto or Montreal.
 
v jet
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RE: Boeing 777

Sun Mar 05, 2000 8:48 pm

Ah, but Boeing 777 I'm well aware of the improvement of the 737NG compared
to previous models however the 737-400 does Perth to Sydney every day
with full loads!! So the 737NG really still has no great advantage to QF
at this time. These words come not from me but from the CEO who gave
a presentation to staff at which I was present a couple of weeks ago .
 
TSV
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Sun Mar 05, 2000 9:08 pm

Hi People :

I don't know how this will affect Qantas' procurement of new (international and domestic) aircraft but keep in mind people that it is certain that QF are getting at least six of the ex-BA RR powered 767-300s. Which means that they will be operating 767s with P&W (-200s), GE (-300s), and RR (-300) engines which must be pretty unique.

Ravi stated in this forum so time ago that he knew what Qantas' preference was to procure for the 300 seat long range aircraft but didn't give the game away. Ravi any hints now?

With respect to Pandora's comments I fail to see how Qantas would buy multiple types of an aircraft at this point in time. Perhaps eventually they may end up with multiple types of the same aircraft in this seat / range combination but to make that sort of a procurement first up just doesn't sound like something Qantas would do.

Whatever they do you can bet it will be a careful (dare I say conservative?) technically and economically justified decision.

Also with regards to the ex-TAA ex-Australian A300s that Qantas inherited they only got rid of them within the last two years or so after the merger in the early nineties and they came into service in the early eighties so they were pretty well utilised. I don't believe they looked strange in Qantas livery but they did definitely look much better in their Australian livery.

Regards

Rob
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
Guest

RE: To V-Jet

Mon Mar 06, 2000 7:09 am

Oh yeah, I forgot - I now do remember seeing 737-400s in Qantas' online schedules from SYD to Perth!

Hmmm..I should've checked your user profile sooner, eh? It's not a bad thing at all to talk with someone who has inside info because they work for their airline company!

Thanks for the insight.
 
Mason
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Don't Underestimate Airbus!

Mon Mar 06, 2000 8:09 am

I am a Boeing fan, but be aware that Airbus has and will do just about anything to enter into an all-Boeing fleet. Look at United (A320s) and BA (A320s). Previously, these were all-Boeing fleets (counting UA's DC-10s), but Airbus made them an offer they could not refuse. Airbus has a very aggressive selling stratagy, and depending on how desperate it is, could offer the A340s at a discounted price to win the order. Only time will tell.
 
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ravi
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Mon Mar 06, 2000 8:34 am

I agree wholeheartedly that Airbus should not be underestimated for the Qantas competition. They have put forward an excellent deal.

TSV, yes I am aware of the selection that Qantas will make. This is not the forum to make that known, however. The result is obvious, though. An announcement will probably be made in April.
 
v jet
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RE: Ravi

Mon Mar 06, 2000 10:30 am

How do you seem to have so much info re an airlines
preference for its future fleet plans.
Do you work for QF in the states??
Just curious.
Regards
 
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ravi
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To: V Jet

Mon Mar 06, 2000 11:05 am

Sir, I am not an American.

I have *some* access to *some* relevant information regarding the fleet plans of Qantas. How I obtain or arrive at this information is irrelevant - although it does entail a good strategy and lots of hard work. I am not in any way in a decision-making capacity at this airline or at any airline with regard to aircraft selection. I am also not employed by Airbus or Boeing. But my information is verifiable and usually 9/10s correct. I don't post non-verifiable information as a rule.

Nice handle, BTW. If only QF would re-live the V Jet era...
 
dalecary
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Mon Mar 06, 2000 1:31 pm

C'mon Ravi, if you know what QF is going to order then tell us!!! It has been reported on the egroups triple 7 message board today that QF will be a launch customer for the 777-200LR with an LOI for 18 aircraft, although the initial order will be for 4-6 units. Can you confirm this? A decision will be announced probably in April. There will probably be an LOI for around 12 777-200ERs as well.
 
v jet
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RE: To:Ravi

Mon Mar 06, 2000 2:11 pm

Ravi,
Sorry but I dont think i said you were an American but your profile location syas United States!!
Just your info contradicts what I know.. ..who knows all will be revealed by June I guess.
As for going back to the V Jet days. Good God no. QF was then a very small airline by todays standards and its not good to live in the past. These are exciting times we are in which is why I'm pleased to be part of QF right now
looking forward to expansion with Airbus or Boeing>
regards
 
TSV
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Mon Mar 06, 2000 9:33 pm

Aw gee Ravi all I asked for was a hint?

But then again I suppose it's pretty hard to give away any hints when it's only a two horse race! You are right of course here is not the forum to give the game away. I suspect that Mr Strong would be very upset, the lips would close tightly, the voice would carefully modulate, and that Bow Tie would start rotating round and round more than if Jim Thorn was interviewing him or telling him how to run Qantas!

Thanks for the response. BTW did you ever see my question about your post on the GE90 twin engined IL96?

Also BTW I believe you said in a previous post that you were (are) an Aussie? Is this correct?

Has there ever been a "who are we" type thread on this board or is that suppose to be catered for in the user info?

Regards

Rob
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
Louis
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Ravi

Tue Mar 07, 2000 2:03 pm

I think it's great that you're privy to all this "valuable" information regarding airlines' secret plans. But don't taunt us by bragging about how much you know and not having anything to show for it. If you know the info, that's fantastic. If you want to say it on the forum, then go ahead. If you don't, that's fine too. Just don't tell us that you know, but say "I won't say anything." It just isn't right.
 
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ravi
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To: Louis

Tue Mar 07, 2000 2:55 pm

Nice form, pity about the entry, Louis.

I am not bragging. I am not trying to hold anything above someone else's head. If someone says that Qantas is going to do one thing or another because of X reason and that reason is incorrect, then I will say so. For instance, Qantas will not fail to consider the 777 because of ETOPS. Qantas is one airline of the world that openly embraces ETOPS. Also, Qantas will not disregard the A340 because it is an Airbus and the airline operates an all-Boeing fleet. These sorts of arguments are flawed, for which I hope that you will agree.

I was also answering a question of where I get my information from -- V Jet wanted to know how I obtained and verified my information and I told him. I also explained how I feel that this is not the forum to release such information, be it right or wrong.

Now, if you would kindly stop hassling me and actually view what I say in context it would be much appreciated. I'm sick of being hassled out of context.
 
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ravi
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Re: 777 Or A330/340?

Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:14 pm

Ok, in answer to some of you guys before Louis stepped in for his say.

Some history. Qantas is not only looking at 777s and A340s, but also A330s. Therefore the airline has to be able to economically justify adding not only Airbusses to an all-Boeing fleet, but also 1.5 Airbus types at the same time. The 777 family is one airplane with one type rating - and a type rating that is very similar to the 747-400, of which it has 24. Airbus has been preparing an A330/340 assault at QF since 1987, so they are well prepared to offset the operational difficulties with other arguments and incentives.

Airbus has dropped the price of A330/340s, and it also touting its A32X series as a means of justifying the new widebody type. Not to be ordered now, but in future as QF 737-300/400s need replacing. An extremely good concept, QF loves commonality. Airbus has come to the party with an offer of A330-300s and A340-500s for the current RFP.

QF would also like a future like-size replacement for 747s, including the A340-600 and 777-300ER. Airbus and Boeing have both outlined plans whereby options to these models can be easily swapped from A330/340 to the -600 and 777 to the -300ER. This time around QF will choose a 300 seat airplane.

It must be capable of flying Australia to North America, South America, South Africa non-stop, and one-stop to Europe, whilst maintaining full passenger payload. It must also offer an economical 'fit' to the current fleet. The aircraft must also deliver lower operating costs and be flexible over short routes of 400nm up to 8,000nm. The airplane must be able to contribute to profit margin, of which QF aims at a 10% margin. It must have easy transition to a new type for crews and ground personnel. And the airplane must also be able to meet passengers' expectations and fit current schedules for 767 and 747 sectors.

Both Airbus and Boeing proposals more or less fit these criterion. Both Airbus and Boeing have offered very similar prices (though I don't know what they are, obviously). Whilst I'm not prepared to say which airplane will win on technical merit, I believe that you guys are smart enough to figure out the issues above to arrive at your own conclusions. The decision isn't unanimous, but it is pretty obvious in my book.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:24 pm

Lay off of Ravi for a bit. If Ravi tells you what type of plane QF is going with, it would be a very BOrEING announcement to us when QF makes their choice.  

FLY777UAL
 
v jet
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Tue Mar 07, 2000 5:23 pm

Gee Ravi dont be so sensitive. All anyone did was ask you a legitimite
question because you said you had *some* access to *some* relevant
info regarding the choice of acft. If you are going to say stuff like that then I think you can expect some questions. I dont think that is hassling you.
I'm sure most people here will realise that most of the stuff on this forum is
heresay rather than fact.
I will wait unitl the announcement is made from the top before the end of this financial year. So that leaves April May and June.
 
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ravi
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Tue Mar 07, 2000 9:47 pm

Obviously my information is not valid at this forum, then.

Thank you, V Jet, for pointing this out. Now I have an excuse not to post here again.
 
Guest

Ravi

Tue Mar 07, 2000 10:05 pm

Your information is relevant if you are willing, not naming names, but merely pointing out the type of position your contact holds. Why is that so difficult? V-Jet is not asking for names at all, or is this information merely your opinion?

I agree with V-Jet, in that most of the info on this forum as a whole is here-say, and that nothing is final until the airline themselves announce the order. You may be right you may be wrong...who knows (unless you are actually James Strong under a pseudonym)
 
VH-BZF
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Tue Mar 07, 2000 10:49 pm

I know there has been a lot of talk recently about what QF may or may not order. My bet is they will go with 'the devil they know' when they make an announcement. they are also talking about further cost cutting (due to higher fuel prices etc) to remain competetive. Mybe the ex BA 767's they are to start receiving mid year will tie them over for a few more years? The press also keep hounding them over their ageing fleet of classic B747-200 & 300's as well as their P&W powered B767-200's. They maintain their aircraft as well as any carrier & as some pundits in the media & industry have stated they could quite easily keep operating their classics up to 25+ years (now about 20). Qantas do need to be competetive though and that is why maybe they need new aircraft. Oneworld has effectively lost Canadian & Star is really starting to hammer QF from all sides (AN,NZ,SQ,UA,NH,TG) on routes into Australia.
I know I have deviated off the topic a little, however maybe QF will wait & see the next move in the Ansett, Air NZ saga & whether SQ will finally come on board there or not before making the costly decision to invest in a new aircraft type? after all QF have made a real thing about being a 3 type operator!
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
Louis
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Ravi, Ravi, Ravi

Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:07 pm

Look, guy, I'm not doubting your information or your sources. During my short stay on this forum, I found a lot of your posts to be quite insightful. But don't belittle us by stating that you know this information, but suggest that this forum isn't worthy of such news. I don't see why it's not. Not that I'm saying don't post here, by all means, do.

Look, I won't say anymore on the topic. Too bad you misunderstood what I had to say. But I hope next time you change the attitude you have towards the people here.

Louis
lmjacobs@ualberta.ca
 
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sammyk
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RE: Ravi, Ravi, Ravi

Wed Mar 08, 2000 12:43 pm

I didn't see any attitude. It may not even be this specific forum he doesn't want to disclose his information. It's probably that this forum is too public, and if someone got word, he may lose his contact. Who knows! If he can't tell, he can't tell. Someone asked him if he knew, he said he knows, but can't tell. Not like he came on the forum and said "Hey guess what guys! I know something you don't, nah nah nah nah :P" Get over it! He is a great contributer to this forum, so don't make him leave if he hasn't already.

Sammy
 
Guest

The Spirit Of Australia Is To Buy 2nd Hand

Wed Mar 08, 2000 1:53 pm

Well, I hope Australian won't be offended with what I said. It was really proven from the history that Qantas really have a special prefences towards 2nd hand old aircraft. They operate fleets of old aircraft, purchase old 747 from MAS, and they just like to maintain old aircraft with a mixure of different powerplant. Right now, again, it was proven with the take over of B767 from BA--Those aircrafts which was being dump and replace with NEW B777 by BA. Qantas just like to buy or use something which is old and ageing and fix it up. Even though they ave a superior engineering quality, but, do they concerned about the safety issues of the ageing aircraft. Anyway, everytime I travel out of Australia, I will never think about Qantas because I prefer the new and modern aircraft operate by others Assian carrier like SQ, MH or CX. Well, The Sirit of Australia---'We like to buy the 2nd hand and we will only do the windows shooping for the first hand.'
 
dalecary
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To Phileo

Wed Mar 08, 2000 2:10 pm

Phileo, what are you on about!!! Qantas buys most of its aircraft new and WILL be purchasing many new aircraft in the next few months. The BA 767s are LEASED and are being brought online for pre and post Olympic capacity increases. What is wrong with purchasing a few(3) 747-400s at bargain prices from Asian carriers suffering badly in a financial crisis. I would much rather fly in a well maintained older aircraft than a poorly maintained newer one. Qantas has been financially brilliant during the Asian crisis, increasing their profits and maintaining and increasing their services. They have just received 3 NEW 747-400s direct from Boeing. The classic 747s and 767-200s will not be in the fleet for much longer and a 737-300,400 replacement is not too far down the track either. Think a bit more carefully before you write such nonsense again and please check your spelling and grammar. Both are terrible.
 
Guest

RE: The Spirit Of Australia Is To Buy 2nd Hand

Wed Mar 08, 2000 2:11 pm

Firstly, you make out that the aircraft in the QF fleet are second-hand and old. This is not true in the least.

As you say, QF engineering is tops. I say it is the best in the world. Can you remember in the history of jet operations a QF jet falling out of the sky? Do you not think that safety is the number one priority for any airline? QF is not going to operate any aircraft that is not safe to fly.

For example, one only has to look at the DC-3, over 50 years old, and still flying strong. Age has nothing to do with safety.

Why buy a brand-new aircraft for $150 million when you can buy a used, perfect model for half that price? It is all about economics. And why did QF by second-hand MH aircraft? I will tell you why...because MH were up shit creek without a paddle during the Asian financial crisis with over-capacity, and needed the income to keep them from going under. As a QF shareholder, I am happy with the job that the QF board is doing in picking up good deals like the MH purchase. In all honesty, I hope that QF doesn't buy the 777 or A340. They do not particularly need those aircraft. Why not scrounge around the market for well-maintained, 'low mileage' 747-400 and 767-300s, which will save money in the long run by not having to spend millions of dollars introducing a new aircraft into the fleet, and also keeping the bottom line in order.

Who knows, in the long run QF may be better off by following this 'policy' of buying 'some' second-hand aircraft. Only time will tell I suppose
 
TSV
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Wed Mar 08, 2000 8:51 pm

Hi People :

Firstly I'd just like to apologise if anything I have posted has offended anyone in any way.

I believe it would be very sad if this forum lost Ravi as a Contributor. Certainly any of his posts that I have read have been very informative. I think everyone should remember that different people have different reasons for not being able to divulge information. The worst case scenario would be where it costs you your job and believe me I've seen examples where that has occurred.

Just my (Australian) two cents worth.

Best Regards

Rob
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
v jet
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RE: The Spirit Of Australia Is To Buy 2nd Hand

Wed Mar 08, 2000 9:11 pm

Thanks for you responses Dalecary and Brissie-lions.
I coud not have put it better my self.
And to Phileo, sorry but your post is just totally wrong!
 
TSV
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Sat Mar 11, 2000 11:49 pm

Anyone has at a guess how much QF paid for the three ugly sisters?
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
Guest

TSV

Sun Mar 12, 2000 12:54 am

Who or what do you mean by the three ugly sisters!?
 
TSV
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Wed Mar 15, 2000 9:17 pm

The three GE powered (as opposed to all of the other RR powered new buy) 747-400s that QF bought cheap were nicknamed "the three ugly sisters".

I heard a rumour that if a new 747-400 cost $200M each of these only cost about $50M or so which would have made them an absolute bargain.
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
na
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 16, 2000 2:46 am

The 3 GE-powered secondhand 747-400s of Qantas are a few years newer than 747-438 VH-OJH which is currently under repair for, as someone mentioned on this forum, the impressive and almost unbelievable amount of Onehundredandtwentymillion (!) Dollars. So it was really the bargain of the century if QF could get the Asiana and MAS planes for half of that!
And one point I want to add to the discussion. 2 of the older and sooner or later to be replaced 747-238s are Combis that are used as Combis (means they are often used as Freighters as I read in an qantas article). How will Qantas replace them? Surely not with Triple Sevens.
 
v jet
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RE: The 777X Or A340? Will Qantas Make Up Its Mind?

Thu Mar 16, 2000 3:07 am

The 742 acft that were combis were converted back to full pax some years ago now.

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