sebring
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EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:00 am

The EMB-170 is operational and has lots of orders (though the US Airways situation has to be a concern for Embraer). The EMB-190 isn't supposed to be operational until 2005, and has a few big orders (JetBlue, Air Canada together have over 200 firm orders and options). However, as of June 30, Embraer had only one order (Crossair) for a dozen or so EMB-195s (for delivery, presumably, after the 190 enters commercial service) and no orders for the EMB-175. Does anyone know if that's changed - the EMB website doesn't talk about post June 30 orders - and does anyone know how soon the EMB-175 could be in commercial service when someone does order the plane.

 
NWDC10
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:49 pm

Give this time. I'm sure the EMB's are very good a/c to compete against the CRJ's. Robert NWDC10
 
Alessandro
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:58 pm

I think Jet airways of India was launch customer for the E175 but pulled out because lack of funds?
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Cubsrule
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:41 am

Embraer certainly has the advantage in the 70-110 seat market in that they were the first to get a completely new a/c to market and thus have a product superior to what I term "first generation" RJs, or those based on props or business jets. Given the fairly positive response to the E170s from pax and US (and, I would imagine, from LO as well), it would seem logical that Embraer would get more orders for all a/c in this series. Look at the second generation 737s compared to the A32x series. Though most would argue that Airbus' product is superior, Boeing got to the market first and was thus able to gain a huge advantage before the first A320 was even delivered.
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richierich
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:35 am

There are a lot of airlines in the red right now, so ordering new equipment is still a ways off.
When the airlines that don't fold decide they need new short-haul equipment, they'll come knocking to Embraer. No worries.
None shall pass!!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:07 am

. Though most would argue that Airbus' product is superior, Boeing got to the market first and was thus able to gain a huge advantage before the first A320 was even delivered.

Huh? The A320 predicates the 737NG by almost 10 years..... the second generation 737 was an MD-80 competitor and was designed far before the A320 was even concieved. The 733/734/735 breifly coexisted, but in the early 90s, customers were leaving the 737-G2 for the A320 in mass.

Also, aircraft that are later to the market tend to slaughter their oponent. Look at the 777 versus A340 and MD-11. The 777 was the *last* 300-seat widebody on the market, but it has sold better than the A340 and MD-11 combine.

Just wait for the RRJ
 
roseflyer
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:23 am

I find it quite strange how Embraer decided to develop 4 planes in the 70-110 seat market. I'm not sure airlines really need planes in 10 seat increments. the E170 and E190 would probably be enough, and they are enough of a family.

Families of planes definitely do better because they offer a customer more choice, however it gets to a certain point. Airbus and Boeing seem to have it down. I highly doubt a carrier like B6 or UA would want to have fleets of all 4 planes. It would make scheduling a nightmare and aircraft swaps would be difficult, because one plane might have 10 less seats than another (proportionally it might be a significant number, but in practicality, it isn't). Maybe Emberaer is on to something, but I think the planes are too close in size for a big order. One airline might order 2 of the series, but would be unlikely to order more. (Are any carriers supposed to get different types now?)

The ERJ 135,140 and 145 are the same way. I don't really see a place for the 140, and its sales have been slim. But Embraer is a good company, so I am sure they know what they are doing.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
yul332LX
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:28 am

Simple answer: The 175 and 195 have restricted range compared to the 170 and 190. For airlines like AC, which plans to use the 190 on long thin routes, it makes the 175/195 less attractive.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Cubsrule
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:28 am

DFWRevolution- I'm considering the 2nd generation 737s, the airbii, and the 737NGs as 3 distinct families of a/c. The point is this: When UA, US, and others were looking for narrowbodies in the early and mid-80s, they couldn't wait around for the airbii to come online. Boeing made a killing for 8 years or so on carriers who needed frames then. Once the airbii came along, a readjustment was necessary and from that the 737NG was born.

Similarly, a carrier looking for a 90 seater now (or, let's say, in 2 years when the bigger Embraers are online) is going to have a fairly easy choice as the E190 series is far superior to the CR9. When the RRJ or the new CRJ (will that be a BRJ?) comes online, things may be change, but Embraer has the market cornered for now. For as long as it takes competitors to develop their new a/c, that means profit for Embraer. After that, who knows?

After all, the rule which you present as hard and fast is not by any means. Your comment about 300 seat widebodies works for that family, but few can argue that the Lockheed benefited from Douglas' 1 year head start in DC-10 production. In fact, I've seen arguments on this board and elsewhere indicating that this delay was a big reason for the DC-10's greater market success despite some obvious bad press (AA 191 et al).
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sebring
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:46 am

Simple answer: The 175 and 195 have restricted range compared to the 170 and 190. For airlines like AC, which plans to use the 190 on long thin routes, it makes the 175/195 less attractive.


True, but with a 3334 km range vs 3700 for the 170, the 175 can reach any North American destination from Toronto except the West Coast. And I can't see AC flying a 65-seater from Toronto to LAX, SFO, SEA and YVR. For the rest of NA, the 175 would have a better seat mile cost than the 170 and a load profile different from Jazz's CRJ-705s. I presume you can adopt a similar rationale in the US or Western European markets, perhaps even more so.

 
yul332LX
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:53 am

Actually, the difference between the 190 and 195/175 is 400nm (AC ordered the 190). Also, there’s always a difference between the advertised range and actual operating range So, the actual range for the 195/175 is below 1700nm.

A 195 could not fly YYZ-SAN or YUL-LAS non-stop while a 190 can. Hence, the advantage of the 190 over the 195 is clear for AC in that case.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
sebring
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:18 am

I agree on the 195. But the 175 is basically a smaller capacity DC-9 rangewise, so AC has made good use of aircraft that can do up to four hours.
 
SNATH
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:31 am

RoseFlyer,

Hi again.

I don't really see a place for the 140, and its sales have been slim.

Wasn't it the case that the 140 was tailored-made for American Eagle for some
reason related to the number of flight attendants they could have on board, i.e.
they can fly the 140 with one attendant, whereas, given the extra number of
passangers in the 145, they would have to have two, and they really wanted
one attendant per plane?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
SNATH
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:39 am

Hey DfwRevolution,

Also, aircraft that are later to the market tend to slaughter their oponent.

I assume this is because when you design last, you know what your opponent's
weaknesses and performance is and you improve on them. Wouldn't you agree?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Cazito
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:20 am

I read somewhere on the net that the E190 undisclosed customer is COPA and that an official announcement will me made later next month. Any confirmation of that?
 
roseflyer
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RE: EMB 175, 195 Sales - Not Taking Off?

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:35 am

Snath

The ERJ 140 was only sold to American I believe, and less than 100 have been built. However I don't think it was because of FA staffing because almost every single carrier that operates the 145 has 50 seats on board, which is the maximum number of passengers for one FA operations. However I could be wrong. Maybe AA just had some need for a 44 seat regional plane with 100nm more range to complement their 37 and 50 seaters.

Embraer seems content to build many versions. Their costs must be low with such simple stretches and shrinks.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!