Tarantine
Topic Author
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New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:13 am

After thinking back, it seems that when an airline changes their paint scheme, soon after bankruptcy looms. Pan am, United, TWA, USAirways and now Delta just to name a few. I hope American Airlines keeps their nice old paint scheme.
I also wish Delta would just go back to the classic paint scheme too.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:18 am

I also wish Delta would just go back to the classic paint scheme too.

At this point, changing an entire fleet's worth of paint would create even *more* expenses. UA is sort of an exception, their new color scheme actually cuts cost. It is a simpler design that requires less man hours and resources of the old design.
 
squirrel83
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:24 am

, their new color scheme actually cuts cost.

Are you talking in long run? How does it cut costs?
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
kanebear
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:28 am

It's not as though UA is repainting aircraft right and left. They are only repainting aircraft that come in for heavy maintenance. The new livery is not as complex and thus costs less to paint as the aircraft would be repainted anyway.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:33 am

TARANTINE.....A perfect example of your thread is Vanguard Airlines who was painting their MD-80's with a very original scheme and one I kinda like. Then they were gone. Now ya see em, now ya don't.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:45 am

Umm, UA was in bankruptcy BEFORE they launched the new livery.
 
USAIRWAYS321
Posts: 1703
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:06 am

And US Airways introduced their new name/livery in late 1997 (implemented in 1998), and bankruptcy didn't happen until 2002.
 
DeltaAgent1
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:37 am

I didn't know Pan Am changed their livery prior to their bankruptcy.
 
EMBQA
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:41 am

Delta-

I think they are referring to the change to the 'Billboard' livery.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ILSApproach
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:45 pm

What does this mean for NWA............???

Braniff comes to mind on the paint scheme thing too.

And no AA will never change that scheme................it's too much of an icon for them, If you ran AA would you. That brightly polished fuselage .....WOW! Always liked it, always will.


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Mike
 
spacecadet
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:17 pm

And no AA will never change that scheme................it's too much of an icon for them

Yeah, AA will never change their livery! Never!!


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Their livery's too much of an icon! woohoo!

It's just a paint scheme. It'll be changed eventually like everybody else's, and like AA's has before too. Almost every large airline you could think of had a scheme that you probably considered an "icon" because that's what you grew up with. But they all change at some point, even AA's.

btw, this thread is much ado about nothing. Liveries change on average something like every eight years. So there's a pretty good chance that any airline that goes out of business will have changed their livery at some point just a few years previous. It doesn't signify anything, and it ignores the hundreds of other airlines around the world that have changed their liveries multiple times with no ill effects (including AA).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
lorm
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:06 pm

I'll slip this in, so if you miss this, you miss it... I just came back from UA's Denver Training Center...

UA's first 747-400 to be painted in the new colors will go into the paintshop on November 15th. Previously been discussed that it will be in Novemeber. But got a solid date.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

-Mike
Brick Windows
 
futureualpilot
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:38 pm

Squirrle83,

The new liveries are basically cheaper to apply than old ones, thus reducing costs.
Life is better when you surf.
 
EMBQA
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:51 pm

UAL's first 747-400 to be painted in the new colors will go into the paintshop on November 15th.

Cool.. I was in AMA several years ago and saw the final two 747-400's get painted in the 'old' gray scheme.

The new livers are basically cheaper to apply than old ones, thus reducing costs

Please explain this economic theory...?? Also, it is a big misconception on airliners.net that planes get stripped and painted after heavy checks. I have personally been involved in painting many-many aircraft, including both old and new UAL. NONE where just out of check and all where pulled right off the line, painted, and sent right back out to fly the line. In fact in the above mentioned UAL 747's the aircraft's arrival was delayed due to an APU fire in HKG. As far as the majors, only Delta has its own in house paint facility.

[Edited 2004-09-20 16:55:56]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
potomac
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:00 am

i dont know about the economics of painting old liveries vs. new ones, but from a marketing standpoint, when a company is looking to refresh its image or portray themselves as new and improved to customers, new branding is a very common and effective approach.

once again, in bankruptcy, it is not about spending money but how it is spent. UA is right on in revising and refreshing its 'product' in trems of best practices. and dont think for a 2nd that if they didn't change anything, that there wouldnt be a flood of a-netters slamming them for not doing anything different while trying to turn things at the airline around.

further, the approach to gradually repainting planes per a schedule based on heavy maintenance seems like a practical way to do so, still keeping aircraft utilization and repainting costs in check.

 
bigb
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:03 am

I guess the same can be said for CO?
ETSN Baber, USN
 
EMBQA
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 am

I guess the same can be said for CO?

Actually BigB... the current CO livery was already being applied to their aircraft when they went into their 2nd Bankruptcy. When Gordon Bethune took over he was looking at a conglomerate of different liverys from old and new CO, New York Air, PeopleExpress, Texas International and Frontier. One of the very first things he did was to order that ALL the aircraft would be painted within a year and fly under ONE livery.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
EnviroTO
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:13 am

I like the polished metal, the font, and the stripes on American's current livery but I think the AA with an eagle symbol looks dated. I notice that on a lot of materials they don't show that AA symbol as prominently as they used to... they show the nose of an aircraft and AmericanAirlines with no space between the words.
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:16 am

ILSApproach, what is brightly polished composite going to look like? The shiny metal look won't work on the new designs, esp. on the 7E7 with large portions of the fuselage being made of composites.
 
mrniji
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:30 am

UA is sort of an exception, their new color scheme actually cuts cost. It is a simpler design that requires less man hours and resources of the old design.

Interesting.. how long does it take to paint all these windows for AI?? There must be extreme input of manpower..  Confused
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
futureualpilot
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:50 am

I bet AI has a stencil for each type of a/c they fly to paint their windows.
Life is better when you surf.
 
B747-437B
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:06 am

how long does it take to paint all these windows for AI??

AI stopped PAINTING the windows almost 20 years ago. The window art is stickers!!! Big grin
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
rikkus67
Posts: 1141
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:22 am

Massey Brown....

re: composites on AA aircraft


.... think of the grey bodied ones...


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...and for an updated look...or at least a change of the logo, take a look at this:

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00000894
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
TomFoolery
Posts: 423
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:37 am

...America west, Swiss(air), etc, Blah blah. The industry as a whole makes evolutionary steps periodically, just as any other product makers. I'm sure it would have been cheeper for Ford to continue producing Mustangs in the 1981 body style, or Microsoft to just keep Windows 95, but 'Brand Marketing' is all about evolution of the company's image. Are classics nice? Yes, but you dont see any '65 Corvettes comming off the assembly line any more, so give Delta's old livery a rest already!
It just happens that the industry is going through a revolution, and part of these cycles typically comes a fresh new look. What brings on these little revolutions in the Industry? The economy! When things slow down you need to change. What else happens when things slow down? Bankruptcies. Although related, one does not cause the other. It is wnwise to assume that when you see a company updating its imageor even reinventing its immage that it is looking at chapter 11.

Tom
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
dsuairptman
Posts: 684
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:38 am

As far as I'm concerned any one who thinks DL should revive that ugly widget scheme is and idot.

You could compare the sleek new gravy scheme to that old one and you'd have to be blind not to see how that stunning white, red, and blue tail is compared to the dirty white, dark blue, turnoff scheme the widget bore.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
EMBQA
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:38 am

Rikkus67-

Early on, AA's Airbus's where not painted because of a composite issue, but due to the type of assemble procedures used. Airbus, along with most European aircraft manufactures use a process called 'Bonded Primer'. This is where the Aluminum skin stock is chemically treated with an anti corrosive material. It can not be removed or disturbed in anyway. If you have even seen a picture of an Airbus aircraft during assembly, it is the copper-gold look that you'll notice. Just recently AA established an in house Engineering Order that allowed them to remove the coating and polish the skin to match the rest of their fleet. Having not read the E/O, I would guess that due to the removal of the coating, the frequency of skin detailed inspections has been increased.

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The large yellow-greenish panel on the crown has been primed, the rest is the Bonded Primer.

The Saab 340 uses this same Bonded Primer process and after several paint shops sanded off the coating, Saab issued a Service Bulletin to inspect all aircraft that had been repainted since leaving the factory.

[Edited 2004-09-20 22:44:28]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
THAIlover
Posts: 40
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:33 am

Didin't I read somewhere that the new paint suppose to help save fuel? At least for JAL case but not sure about UAL.
Getting my feet on the rudders and hands on YOKE!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:40 am

The shiny metal look won't work on the new designs, esp. on the 7E7 with large portions of the fuselage being made of composites.

Hey... NW came up with something rather shiney-


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spacecadet
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RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:31 am

Hey... NW came up with something rather shiney-

That's actually not shiny at all - it's some sort of matte silver. Maybe somebody here knows the exact name of that color. I like it a lot, but it's not shiny, as you can see pretty clearly from that picture (compare that shot to any of AA's chromed planes in that same lighting situation).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
BOAC911
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:47 pm

RE: New Paint Scheme Then Bankruptcy

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:17 pm

At least United's fleet won't resemble a military fleet anymore. That grey was awful!!

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