LAXintl
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Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:20 am

Following todays lifting of trade sanctions against Libya, the U.S. State Department has given consent for Boeing to provide Libyan Arab Airlines with 22 new aircraft, as part of a formal order to be made public shortly.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
burnsie28
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:21 am

If this is true, I am very shocked, seeing how their government does not like the US government!
 
leviticus
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:25 am

How about having Libyan Airlines as the launch customer for the 7E7  Laugh out loud
 
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solnabo
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:32 am

Sounds like cow manure to me  Insane

Micke
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cloudy
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:34 am

If this is true, I am very shocked, seeing how their government does not like the US government!
-----

Libya has stopped supporting terrorism, has given up all weapons of mass destruction, and is compensating victims of previous terrorist actions (particularily Pan Am 103). They have also satisfied the US and its Allies that they are sincere by showing us a lot of stuff we didn't previously know about(like their nuclear program), and by cooperating with inspections. As a result of these actions, US-Libyan relations have greatly improved. That is why the sanctions were just lifted. Ordering Boeing aircraft is a good sign becuase it shows that Libya does not expect this new situation to change for a very long time - you don't order new aircraft if you don't expect to be able to get parts and support in the future.
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:40 am


At one time your government did not theirs either.

Times change.

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing.

Welcome to the dirty world of politics.

It would be interesting know what they buy.

My guess is B737NG to replace the F28/B727 and probably B767 to replace the B707/A310.

Given their age, I suspect that most will not fly again.

Fokker F28 1978
Boeing B727 1975 to 1978
Airbus A310 1984
Boeing B707 1967 to 1976

The B707/B727 and F28 are not CAT 3 compliant. Although I saw B727/F28 flying in 2002.

The A310 may be converted to cargo, but is more likely to be sold if they are going all Boeing.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:44 am

They have also satisfied the US and its Allies that they are sincere by showing us a lot of stuff we didn't previously know about(like their nuclear program), and by cooperating with inspections. As a result of these actions, US-Libyan relations have greatly improved. That is why the sanctions were just lifted

As frustrating as the U.S. sanctions may be to some people, Libya and Vietnam have shown that it really doesn't take much to improve relations with the U.S. If the U.S. can fight a war causing hundreds of thousands of casualties with Vietnam, then 20 years later be selling aircraft and discussing passenger freedom rights, then diplomacy is possible with just about anyone.

Maybe some concessions on both sides are necessary for oh say.... Iran  Wow!

How about having Libyan Airlines as the launch customer for the 7E7

Yeah if you can't get AA to sign on, why not eh ?  Big grin

I think these are likely to be a mix of 767-300ER and 737NG. Or maybe 777s and 737NGs? Does Libya have the traffic for an aircraft larger than the 763ER?

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing. Welcome to the dirty world of politics.

Yeah... all of 22 aircraft means the U.S. would immediatly lift a export ban  Insane

If Boeing had that much influence, the 100 frame tanker order would have zipped through congress in the Express Lane without anyone blinking an eye. 22 aircraft are modest, but this isn't a mega-order that would give the aerospace lobby a reason to drastically reverse U.S. foreign policy.

[Edited 2004-09-21 03:49:46]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:55 am

Yeah... all of 22 aircraft means the U.S. would immediatly lift a export ban

No, but an order of 22 airframes from a U.S. company could have been the difference between immediately lifting the ban and waiting six months or so to lift it.

Besides, 22 aircraft from Boeing means that's 22 less aircraft that Airbus can sell.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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afay1
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:23 am

This comes as cold comfort to the PanAm 103 and UTA victims. However, as hard as it is (and if it proves to be true in the long run), I guess it just shows that people, and countries, can change.
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:37 am


Actually what I meant is that Gadaffi got a list of things that he had to do, and that buying Boeing was just one part of it.

Given that there is a gap between the end of B767 orders and the B7E7, then the sale might be fairly important to the White House at present.

Also another order could bridge the gap between the currently ordered B767 and the KC767. Unless they get some orders soon there is going to be a production gap on the B767.

Finally it means putting one over Airbus.

Seems like an order well worth having.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:55 am

I'm sure Airbus will be crying about arrangement in the near future.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:09 pm

If I was very cynical, I might wonder if sanctions were lifted on condition that they bought Boeing.

We had no choice but to lift sanctions. If you tell a country "you do these things and we'll lift sanctions" and then they do all those things, you can't then go and say "well, we didn't really mean it, we're keeping the sanctions anyway". Because then every country in the world knows you don't keep your word, and no country has any reason for making a deal with you anymore because they know you'll just break it.

You can be as cynical as you want, but honor and honesty actually do play a part in politics too. We may not have wanted to lift sanctions (in fact Bush's foot-dragging suggests we didn't), but the reality is if we ever want sanctions to actually work, we have to honor our agreements to countries that meet our demands under them.

And as much as I personally dislike Bush, I agree with whoever above wrote about how this is an example of how easy we really are to get along with. Countries that don't get along with us don't get along with us because they choose not to get along with us. If we can do business with Vietnam and Libya, not to mention Russia and all of its former republics, China, Japan, Germany, etc., then we can do business with anybody. We have a long history in this country of turning enemies into allies. All we asked Libya to do was to stop supporting terrorism, give up their WMD program and compensate their past victims. And to their credit, they did. End of story. I doubt we'll ever be "friends" with Libya but we can and we have to at least treat them like a normal country now.

I don't think it's so surprising that Libya would want Boeing jets. Libya's wanted to do business with us for a long time; Khadafi's still something of a nutcase but he realizes that being able to deal with us would only help his economy. He's been trying to get those sanctions lifted for years and has now finally managed to do it. Buying Boeing would be a pretty powerful symbol for him, if nothing else; it's showing his people that he can be a benevolent dictator (able to forgive and forget), and showing the rest of the world that he is not bound by politics in making business decisions. Who knows what the real reason is, but I'm not surprised by it, whatever it is.
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behramjee
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:10 pm

Doesnt Libya's national airline already operate a small number of A 320s???

I expect Airbus to get the narrow body order if they already have A 320s and BOEING to get a B 763ER / B 7E7 order...Libya's airline does not need the extra range and capacity offered by a B 777-200ER.

However one mustne doubt that maybe and just maybe if Libya's national airline has leased in A 320s...they may return it back to the lessor and order indeed a full range of B 737NGs + B 763s + B 7E7s all brand new from BOEING.

But since FRANCE also has a big say with Libyan politics with regards to that UTA plane bombing...expect some serious talk for A 320s for narrow body fleet whilst widebody can be BOEING.
 
sxmarbury33
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:22 pm

My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?
 
BN747
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:42 pm

There are no more sanctions.. it was annouced that Bush lifted them today.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is true. Tripoli-JFK-IAH is just around the corner... oil ticket sales.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
warren747sp
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:43 pm

Of course, they are going to order Boeing jets.
They had to pay France twice for the UTA victims after Libya had already settled with France many years ago. There must be a bitter taste left somewhere.
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777ER
Crew
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:02 pm

Way to go Boeing Big thumbs up

Does anyone have any idea on how many frames will be ordered per model?
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N1120A
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:34 pm

Then again, it takes a US destroyer shooting down an A300 with 290 people on board to get a few new planes into Iran.
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TW741
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:19 pm

Bennet123
The B707/B727 and F28 are not CAT 3 compliant. Although I saw B727/F28 flying in 2002


F28 and B727 are still in regular use like into Malta.


Behramjee
Doesnt Libya's national airline already operate a small number of A 320s???

The LN flights into VIE are shown with A320.
Maybe they still have this aircraft in use, don't know:

View Large View Medium

Photo © Peter Tonna





Also, why shouldn´t they order Boeing Jets? Just because of the past?
I wonder if any discussion or posting with carriers from Arab countries involved really must get a poltical discussion ??

=TW741=

[Edited 2004-09-21 09:22:29]
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mrniji
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:38 pm

Libya has stopped supporting terrorism, has given up all weapons of mass destruction, and is compensating victims of previous terrorist actions (particularily Pan Am 103).

I am still waiting for a valid proof from the STate Department for all these allegations. .. Maybe Colin Powell can call for another interesting PPT-Presentation in front of the UN and show us prooves, as he did before the Iraq war

This entire move is surprising in my eyes. Wondering why they did not go with Airbus after being - probably unjustified - sanctioned by the US  Confused
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
behramjee
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:00 pm

Instead of JFK...EWR and IAH would be a better option as both cities are huge CO hubs and CO can feed Libyan's flights from these two hubs to TRIP.

For EWR...flights should be either nonstop or via a European city.

For IAH flights...flights should be via LOS...but the B 763ER cant do that however the B 7E7-800/900 can  Big grin

European destinations which are important for oil $$$ into TRIPOLI are AMS-LHR-CDG-FRA-MXP and MAD. LHR and CDG could do with the widebodies whilst the rest can have A 320s/B 737NGs.

Yes it would be a very sensible option for Libyan to approach a struggling US airline like DL to buy some of its used B 738s and B 763ERs...JP MORGAN advised DL to sell all their 21 B 764s...so is there a chance?

Libyan could also think about UALs stored B 777-200ERs in the desert but I dont think so they need the extra capacity of the B 772ER but the range of this aircraft would come in handy on nonstop EWR and IAH routes from TRIP for sure.
 
malb777
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:18 pm

What a great world it would be if countries could order what they like from who ever and not have all this" political bulls*&t " trying to work out why and how and was it a condition of sanction lifting etc. Libya wants to buy Boeing then let them get on with it.
In light of this thread , if Iraq does not buy Boeing at the end of the current conflicts will there will be a thread saying Iraq has turned its back on its
savior's ( for want of a better word) and gone with a country that offered no help, and this was political decision. come on guys its a big world out there with people who know what they are doing .
After all I cant see to many people in here with foreign Affairs , business Management or similar positions in there profiles
thank god i was not born a bird. this type of flying is much better
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:07 pm


Due to the geographic position of Tripoli and Benghazi, all the key destinations wanted to be served by LN could be reached by a 73NG or an 32S. As far as Boeing is concerned, i think that the B738 could be suitable for the airline, but what to do with the experience they get with the A320s ?! It is the role of the politicians here !!!

For long-hauls, a 764 could be suitable for the Lybian fleet.
 
beechnut
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:47 pm

I think you guys are leaving out a very good possibility in the order, an aircraft that would be perfect for a country the size of Libya with mostly short/medium routes: the MD95...oops sorry, the B717. Surely this would be a good opportunity to inject a little life into that moribund production line.

It's sort of midway between the F28 and 727. The order could very well include a mix of 737NG (as direct 727 replacements), B717 (as F28 replacements but not necessarily on a 1:1 basis), and 767 as the (gasp!) 707/A310 replacement.

Is Libya REALLY still flying the 707 in pax service??? S**t, might be time to head out there before this order is filled if they do, for a ride. I've flown on Viscounts and DC-8s before, but never the 707 (too bad I missed the VC10 too, maybe I'll have to sub an IL62m instead).

Mike
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:31 pm

If they are smart, they would pick up the cancelled/deferred DL 777 & 737-800 planes for a song.
One Nation Under God
 
miamix707
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:42 pm

Sad to see how screwed up my own country is...

c'mon lets be more mature here. Just because they didn't order Airbuses is your cuntry screwed up? It has been screwed up for a long time. Credits to Qadhafi for having some common sense. you might not like the US but it's better to be friends with the Americans than to be their enemy. That's a no brainer, unfortunately a few countries don't want to accept reality and sink their people deeper. Again hats off to Qadhafi, he finally realized his country would be better off. Sad to see how some ppl are this fannatical. Their country takes a big step forward and improve relations with another but now that's screwed up! You hate the US but you like to live here.. very nice.

Funny how the US drops sanctions against a proven terrorist state (Libya) despite all the actions undertaken by the Libyan government against US and other foreign nationals (Lockerbie, UTA etc), yet can't see it's way to drop sanctions against Cuba, which has never undertaken terrorist actions against the US. Can you guess what the difference is ?

Although the embargo hasn't really worked against Cuba, the difference is that Fidel Castro is a hard-headed crazy old man who by now doesn't give a damn about his people. He has too much pride to make any changes with his defiant attitude while his country crumbles. Lucky for him he now has Chavez.

back on topic

Beechnut I think the 707 is used as presidential/VIP transport. Now that's an aircraft I'd pay just to see.

Imagine a 747 in Lybian Arab colors flying the transatlantic route, what a beauty that would be!
 
NYC777
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:59 pm

Any word on type of Boeings that might be ordered? It looks like that they're only starting discussions...I'm sure the Libyans will also be talking to Airbus.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DIA
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:12 am

I can't speak for any of the opinions here. . .but I do have a Libyan-American friend who travels between the U.S. and Libya quite often. Therefore, I feel I should share his sentiments with you all. . .

He has told me how 95%+ of all Libyians love American "everything" from jeans, cars, movies, way-of-life, fashion, etc. . .you get the point. Before all the tension of the recent past, the U.S. had military bases in Libya and got along with the locals very well. The Americans pumped a lot of money into the local economy and offered many employment opportunities to the locals. He has told me that it pretty much was just like the past U.S./Havana, Cuba scene before that went sour. It was the place to go, or visit, especially if you were in the U.S. Military. Before I launch into my love of historical occurances. . .I'll move on. . .

In any case, he always reminds me that it was the Libyan government who made things bad over there, when they decided to be on the "radical" side of things. But now, he tells me things have drastically changed. . .and the mass population wants to build strong relations with the U.S.

Anyhow, that's what I know. By the way, my freind is about 60 y.o. and has raised his family here in the U.S. because he, "...wanted to give his children opportunities they would not have had in Libya." One of his three children currently has one more year of medical schooling to go (CU-Denver Medical Student). His plans of becoming a pediatrician in Libya are on schedule.



So, in my opinion on the main topic, no, it certainly does not surprise me one bit that Libyan is looking at purchasing Boeing a/c.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:33 am

BeechNut

If you want to get a ride on a VC10, why don't you contact the Public Relations Officer at Brize.

www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton

These planes may be tankers, but they do have seats.

If you don't ask, you don't get.
 
AA717driver
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:38 am

spacecadet--Outstanding post!

Libya has come around and they should be rewarded for that.

Mrnji--You need proof that Libya WAS a terrorist state? What planet have you been living on? There are satellite pics of terrorist training camps from the 1970's on where the IRA, various European and Islamic terror groups were trained. Do some research. Insane

To suggest that they might be buying Boeings as part of a larger agreement elicits only one response from me: Who cares? Some of the dirty little secrets from the Airbus sales department are starting to leak out so the game is on. This is a high stakes game these companies are involved in. Both will try to stack the deck. As long as everyone realizes that the rules are that there are no rules, everything will work out.TC
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LHMark
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:12 am

Hey, Boeing builds good jets. They may be just what LAA needs to put an effective airline again. THe whys of the order are immeterial. In international sales, there aren't really many rules.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
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N328KF
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:16 am

N1120a:

It was a cruiser. And the Airbus was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The pilot situation is very tense...shit happens in warfare. People die. Get over it.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:53 am

N328KF

Firstly, the ship was stationed within 5 miles of the centre of airway A59, which the A300 should have followed. Given this point, there was every possibility that an airliner would fly over.

Secondly they saw an A300 and thought that it was an F14. Based on an incorrect reading of their radar they also thougt that the plane was descending when it was in fact climbing.

Thirdly, the radar display on the cruiser registered a Mode III transponder code, (which suggested a civilian aircraft).

The USS Vincennes was an AEGIS cruiser, which is designed for AA use, if this is the best that they can do, what about a ship not designed for this role.

Quite how you can conclude that Shit happens in war is somewhat baffling.

I suggest you read Aviation Disasters ISBN 1 85260 602 9, particularly the section relating to the comments by the Captain of the USS John Sides.

If an Iranian cruiser had shot down a US airliner, would you view be different.
 
jasepl
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:55 am

Hmmm... So that's why the sanctions were lifted!  Big grin
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:07 am

From today's Houston Chronicle, an excerpt
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2806523

Continental files for Libya service:
Continental filed Monday for permission to offer service to Libya, which could be done through a joint marketing agreement with its partner KLM Royal Dutch Airlines.................The filing was done the same day the United States removed a ban on commercial air service to Libya......
.......If approved, travelers from Houston seeking to go to oil-rich Libya could use Continental's regular Houston-Amsterdam flight, then connect to a KLM flight.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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ltbewr
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:12 am

Let us not forget that Lybia is significant oil producer, and probably one of the largest in North Africa. By the substantial reduction in sanctions, it will open up the US market and US companies to buy Lybian oil, rather than to selling it to China and European companies, making more money for the US companies and maybe moderating or even slightly reducing the price of oil. Yes, Lybia has made substantial concessions to have access to the US Markets again. I agree that no amount of money can ever really compensate for the terrorism Lybia supported over the last 30 years but we do believe that they are trying to reform to deal with a country with a fast growing population and then need to change from past policies so Quadaffi can retain his power. That he is considering the purchase of Boeing a/c may be thought of a bribe, but as oil is traded worldwide in US Dollars, at least we in the US get some jobs and profits out of it. Maybe Lybia could buy and give to an US airline and Air France/UTA each a new a/c from his order.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:23 am

"My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?"

If you have the cash to buy new equipment why buy someone elses dirty underwear?

Libya is a member of OPEC, that means they have oil, which means they have cash out the ying yang.

With used airplanes you have to piece together a fleet out of the desert somewhere finding engines and avionics that all match, then get all the maintenance up to date. Also, used airplanes have little to no depreciation left, which doesn't really matter to a government.

With new airplanes you can say what engines you want, what avionics you want, what switches you want where and you also have warranty.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:24 am

"My question is why dont they pick up some second hand planes from the US market which is being flooded by them?"

If you have the cash to buy new equipment why buy someone elses dirty underwear?

Libya is a member of OPEC, that means they have oil, which means they have cash out the ying yang.

With used airplanes you have to piece together a fleet out of the desert somewhere finding engines and avionics that all match, then get all the maintenance up to date. Also, used airplanes have little to no depreciation left, which doesn't really matter to a government.

With new airplanes you can say what engines you want, what avionics you want, what switches you want where and you also have warranty.


All true, but buying new planes from Boeing is also very much a political gesture.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Imonti
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:34 am

I think I can grasp this concept.

Us lift ban, we buy their planes, we put out our hands for AID and donations and financial help, US says they were nice guys and bought Boeings lets add another 0 on the cheque.

Quite simple.

Win situation for Libya.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:48 am

, but what to do with the experience they get with the A320s ?! It is the role of the politicians here !!!

Eh... pleanty of carriers have swapped the types... EasyJet, ANA, ect, ect... if it is a sweet deal, then take it.

All true, but buying new planes from Boeing is also very much a political gesture.

If Libya said, let's buy some Boeings to ease things over with the State Department, I really have no problem. But if the State Department said, lets force Libya to buy some Boeings or those restrictions stay, then I have a big problem.

If Libya wants Boeings on their own accord, more power to them

Quite how you can conclude that Shit happens in war is somewhat baffling.

Yeah the AEGIS is probably the most advanced battle system that can float... but when 19 year-old seamen (teehee), who dropped out of high school, is sitting behind the controls, they can get a little trigger happy when they are nervous. S** really does happen

The order could very well include a mix of 737NG (as direct 727 replacements), B717 (as F28 replacements but not necessarily on a 1:1 basis), and 767 as the (gasp!) 707/A310 replacement.

Yeah that might make Boeing jump for joy, but unless they opperate significant regional opps, using a 737 on shoter runs might prove to be more flexible in the long run.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:12 am

"All true, but buying new planes from Boeing is also very much a political gesture"

No shit.. It has been going on for generations and it will go on for many generations to come.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
srbmod
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:44 am

I wonder if they'll want those 8 C-130s they ordered back in the 1970s that are parked up @ MGE?
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:09 am

DfwRevolution

What is the point of buying expensive kit, and then giving it to a 19 year old kid. If he can't tell an A300 climbing from an F14 diving, then either the equipment or the operators are useless.

If you sit under under an airlane, you can hardly be surprised if airliners fly over. Would'nt it have been helpful to broadcast a warning on the civil band.

I repeat, would then US regard this as acceptable the other way round.

Please don't have any accidents in my direction.
 
Ant72LBA
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:42 am

RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:12 am

Congrats to Spacecadet on a well reasoned post that appears to have set the tone for an unusually balanced topic.

If Libya is free of sanctions then they are free to choose whichever planes suit their needs the best; maybe they should be considered a barometer of which way current demand is going - I can see strong arguments for them both choosing and ignoring Boeing. If they have had so long to study their needs who are we to argue with their choice?
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:21 am

What is the point of buying expensive kit, and then giving it to a 19 year old kid. If he can't tell an A300 climbing from an F14 diving, then either the equipment or the operators are useless.

Well now that you are catching on to the ways of the world, perhaps you now understand why civilians are gunned down left and right in places like Iraq or Israel. Give someone a weapon and make them nervous, and every single shred of rational thought evaporates.

Notice the parallels with KAL-007? Military spooked into thinking a 747 was a spy plane? A simple visual confirmation would have prevented this, but those simple steps are forgotten in the fog of war.

I repeat, would then US regard this as acceptable the other way round.

Well how did we react to PanAm 103? What does it matter if its a missile or a bomb? You know the answer  Insane
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1422
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:22 am

Ant72LBA Wrote:

"who are we to argue with their choice?"


ROFLMAO!!! Hello! You are posting on A.net. What do you expect?
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Ant72LBA
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:42 am

RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:29 am

maybe should have added  Big grin at the end of that!
 
bennett123
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RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:31 am

DfwRevolution

So unless you are suggesting tranquilisers or disarming the military, you
are saying that wherever the US military goes they should take plenty of bodybags.

I find it amazing that you are so casual about this.

I do not recall anyone saying Shit happens over PanAm103. I seem to remember that the US was not especially understanding about KAL007.

Problem was that if you had hit the USSR, they might have hit you back.
 
afay1
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:14 am

There was a visual confirmation on KAL007, and the pilot of the fighter that shot it down is proud of it to this day. In his, and his government's eyes, it didn't matter that it was a PAX aircraft because spying is spying, with civilians being a secondary matter. Doesn't make it right. What does this have anything to do with Libya? South Korea has an excellent relationship w/ Russia at the moment BTW...
 
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N328KF
Posts: 5807
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Libya To Order Boeing Jets

Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:22 am

BENNETT123:

I have read what is available to me to read on the incident. Like I said, shit happens...people make mistakes. The difference is that if it were an Iranian cruiser shooting down a US airliner, that Iranian cruiser would have ended the day at the bottom of the Persian Gulf.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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