B747-437B
Topic Author
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:08 pm

In case any spotters care, an Air India 744 (VT-ESN) will be parked at the airport in Dover, DE this week while Prime Minister Manmohan Singh addresses the United Nations and meets with George W. Bush among others.

The aircraft flew LHR-JFK as AI 1 on Monday with a 7pm arrival and then ferried JFK-DOV as AI 345 at 10pm. She will ferry back to JFK on Sunday morning as AI 346 before departing to GVA as AI 1.

Geneva spotters should note that she will arrive after dark, but will overnight there and will continue to Delhi with a daylight departure next Monday morning.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:03 pm

... and another 744 out of service for a week - how long will it be out of service, regarding change of configuration, security and pi pa po..? why doesn't the Indian Air Force take this duty? Is there any law/regulation preventing this?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:10 pm

Why does India not get a permanent VIP Long range Aircraft.
regds
HAWK
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:09 pm

"Why does India not get a permanent VIP Long range Aircraft."

Why does the Indian PM need a Boeing 744? Even the US President makes do with a Boeing 742.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
BandA
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:59 pm

Isn't Manmohan Singh the one that refused to use the imported fleet of BMW's that the ex pm Vajpaee was using shortly before him leaving the office(as per the suggestion from security advisors) I am not sure how much those BMW's were worth... but they were probably way less than having a dedicated Jet. So I personally dont see Manmohan Singh wanting one...

I can understand the mans point about driving around in 5 crore BMW's while there are poor people starving to death... but I do think its about time an Indian PM arrives in style... rather than a Air India jet or a same old Ambi!
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
BandA
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:00 am

Jaysit,

The AF1 maybe based on a 742 but its probably a lot better equipped than a 744.

But I am sure thats nothing you didnt already know  Wink/being sarcastic

[Edited 2004-09-21 17:02:28]
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:06 am

What interests me: why doesn't AI convert one of the 742s, which are to be retired soon, to a VVIP jet 'a la American style'?? [Or maybe one of this brilliant, shining 310 Big grin ]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:10 am

"The AF1 maybe based on a 742 but its probably a lot better equipped than a 744."

You mean AF1 has inflight phones that actually work, unlike AI's 744s?

 Acting devilish
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
BandA
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:11 am

Good point Mrniji!

that way they dont have to spend the millions buying a new plane!
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
BandA
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:15 am

You mean AF1 has inflight phones that actually work, unlike AI's 744s?

and I heard the toilets dont leak and they've got nice leather padding on the seats. Not sure if they are heated though.
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6577
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:50 am

The aircraft flew LHR-JFK as AI 1 on Monday with a 7pm arrival and then ferried JFK-DOV as AI 345 at 10pm.

I wonder what the parking fees are, JFK vs DOV?

She will ferry back to JFK on Sunday morning as AI 346 before departing to GVA as AI 1

B747-437B, Is it the same flight number from LHR-JFK and JFK-GVA?

Made from jets!
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:54 am

B747-437B, Is it the same flight number from LHR-JFK and JFK-GVA?


me not -437B, but just FYI that when the Prime Minister is on board the Flight no is always designated as AI 1 (same with the President/other VVIPs??? - do other persons apart from the aforementioned have the right to travel AI 1, as the Home Minister, National Security Advisor etc.?? - Hopefully not) - Hence, the Flight no LHR-JFK and JFK-GVA is the same


Just wondering why the flight number changes from AI 001 to the random numbers AI 345 and 346 respectively.. or is that a hint that AI will soon order the A 345 and 346 series??  Big thumbs up

[Edited 2004-09-21 18:57:19]

[Edited 2004-09-21 18:58:05]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
B747-437B
Topic Author
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:58 am

As of FY2004, the Government of India is paying AI a fixed sum equivalent to the cost of leasing ~200 days worth of VIP charters aboard a 744. The aircraft provided is then theirs to do with as they please, whether they want to fly it or park it in Delaware. AI has a surplus of 744s right now anyway (10 active, 7.5 aircraft rotation) so it works out fine.

Is it the same flight number from LHR-JFK and JFK-GVA?

Yes. Any AI flight that carries the Head of State (President) or Head of Government (Prime Minister) is designated as AI 1 (they have a very elegant and fancy logo "Air India ONE" for all the related frills, etc...).

Why does the Indian PM need a Boeing 744?

Manmohan Singh actually asked about using a smaller aircraft for his trip to Bangkok earlier this year, but evidently it works out more efficient to use a single large 744 than multiple smaller planes to transport the ~200 strong press corps that accompanies him on these trips.

Just wondering why the flight number changes from AI 001 to the random numbers AI 345 and 346 respectively..

Not AI 001 but AI 1. They are very fussy about that actually. And no idea why 345 and 346 were chosen, but they used them last year as well when Vajpayee had spent a week visiting the US and they parked in Dover.

I wonder what the parking fees are, JFK vs DOV?

Since Dover is an AFB, its possible the parking is gratis courtesy the USAF. I know that IAF extends the same courtesy to visiting US dignitaries on the IAF ramp at Delhi when they are visiting India.

do other persons apart from the aforementioned have the right to travel AI 1, as the Home Minister, National Security Advisor etc.?? - Hopefully not

The flight is only designated as AI 1 when the PM/President is aboard. On this trip he is being accompanied by both the Foreign Minister and the National Security Advisor - but if they were traveling without him they would only get a normal First Class seat or for shorter trips, one of the Indian Air Force VIP 737s.

Why does India not get a permanent VIP Long range Aircraft.

The idea was floated a couple years ago but they determined that the costs of setting up and training Air Force pilots for a 747 doesn't make sense, especially since most domestic airports can't even handle a 747 so its use would be very limited. Additionally, since they would only be acquiring one plane - a backup aircraft would have to be provided by Air India anyway to cater for any tech snags - which means AI would still have the hassles of keeping a crew on ready reserve at all times during VIP trips. On the other hand, if they got a smaller long-range jet, then a seperate charter would become neccessary for the Press Corps that accompany the PM/President.

Instead, it was decided that from FY2004 the Government would compensate AI for a fixed number of days per year of VIP aircraft usage and AI would factor that into the fleet planning accordingly. That is why you will almost always find a spare 744 in the schedule (outside of sked mx checks) when no VIP flights are planned.

how long will it be out of service, regarding change of configuration, security and pi pa po..?

VT-ESN has actually been out of service for most of September. She took President Kalam down to Dar-Es-Salaam, Durban, Jo'burg and Cape Town last week. Reconfig is usually a one-day job on each end - the interiors are all modular so no real hassles installing them.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:05 am

"but evidently it works out more efficient to use a single large 744 than multiple smaller planes to transport the ~200 strong press corps that accompanies him on these trips."

Why can't the 200 strong press corps take Air India commercial or Thai or Druk Air for that matter?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
kilavoud
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:47 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:44 am

Why do you always want to understand what Indians are doing and why ?
They just do it another way. Nothing more.
Kilavoud.
 
B747-437B
Topic Author
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:01 am

Why can't the 200 strong press corps take Air India commercial or Thai or Druk Air for that matter?

Because its not always that easy to find a commercial flight to follow the PM's flexible itinerary.

Take yesterday for example. The original plan was for an early lunch meeting with Tony Blair followed by a 2pm departure from Heathrow for JFK. Due to the meeting running long, they only got off the ground at Heathrow around 445pm and into JFK at 7pm. This morning he was scheduled to have breakfast with George Bush at the Waldorf-Astoria at 8am. If the press had followed the original plan and booked maybe a 4pm flight to JFK, they would have been up shit creek without a paddle on either end.

And while even these may be doable fine, take some other itineraries that the VIPs have flown that involve trips between such commercial aviation hubs as Khartoum and Sofia, Zanzibar and Durban, etc... A press charter simply makes the most sense and combining them with AI 1 is a rare case of Indian efficiency!
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:13 am

Why does the Indian PM need a Boeing 744? Even the US President makes do with a Boeing 742.

Because the US president cannot afford a 744  Big grin
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:37 am

Sean, as usual your information rocks! Many thanks!  Wow!

So no one believes my hint with the designated AI 345 and 346 for DOV-JFK vv. and the upcoming airbus-order for the aforementioned fleet types...  Crying
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Thunderbird1
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:23 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:01 am

VT-ESN has actually been out of service for most of September

I've noticed that ESN seems to carry most of the PM-ferrying load nowadays (it seemed to be EGC in the past, when they used the -200). Any particular reason for this?
 
dulleswatcher
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 4:39 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:20 am

I appreciate very much this thread and the informative posts contained therein. That having been said, I cannot stress enough how dangerous it is in this day and time to reveal even the approximate future wheels up/wheels down times and locations of an aircraft carrying senior Indian officials. As we saw in Mombassa and Baghdad, terrorists are increasingly proficient with shoulder-launched missiles. Given terrorists proven hatred of India, it seems most prudent that such information be withheld from the public in future.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
Skyguy
Posts: 464
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:42 am

Dulleswatcher: I completely agree with you, it's innocent and interesting information for us aviation/airline enthusiasts but not for others who have other warped intentions.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
cha747
Posts: 753
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:07 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:01 pm

Sean - or anybody else in the Dover area. Can you see the plane on the tarmac or is it in some hangar or somewhere in a remote location on base? I live about 60 minutes from Dover and would consider going to see it if it were visible from the highway (1 or 13...I can never remember which until I get there). Anyway, they'd probably shoot first, then ask questions when they see some random brown person taking pics of an AFB.  Wink/being sarcastic
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:28 pm

I dont think that India needs to go in for any long range VVIP aircraft. The current arrangement of leasing out aircraft from AI is the best solution for long-haul VVIP travel.

For the shorter haul travel, the govt should consider purchasing a mix of short haul jets in the sub-100 seat category like the ERJ170 and som ein the sub-50 seat category like th ERJ-145. Both these aircraft haev the range to operate to every corner of India and can land at almost 300 airports within the country. These could serve as the perfect replacement for the B737-200's currently being operated by the IAF's signals sqn.

-Roy
 
B747-437B
Topic Author
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:40 pm

That having been said, I cannot stress enough how dangerous it is in this day and time to reveal even the approximate future wheels up/wheels down times and locations of an aircraft carrying senior Indian officials

Actually this info has been on the Geneva aviation enthusiasts website at http://www.dpts.org/expectedvisitors.html for longer than AI operations has had the information, including exact slot times!!! I've been careful not to post any unpublished VVIP movement information since your caution to me last year.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
Topic Author
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:42 pm

These could serve as the perfect replacement for the B737-200's currently being operated by the IAF's signals sqn.

AFAIK, the IAF had chosen to acquire BBJs to replace the current 732s but I'm not sure of the progress of that order.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:15 pm

I remember reading in the local papers on my last trip to India in Dec '02 that the IAF had actually signed orders for three BBJs.
But that was in "The Hindu" and "Deccan Chronicle" not necessarily the best sources of aviation news.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:29 pm

LOL Kaz! Almost all of our newspapers would fail the seriousness/reliability test these days! Both the Times & the Eco Times (once considered the most reliable) are little more than trashy rags these days, too busy trying to out-sensationalise Mid Day... And failing at it miserably!

That said, I too remember something about the Air Force's orders having been confirmed and signed, though I thought they were Embraers. Remember, Lula was visiting around that time and there was also much noice about AI starting services to GIG & GRU!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:39 pm

Youre right on the money about the Times and the Eco Times. All that the latter talks about is how BPO male employees are seeking hookers on line. Its like the BPO People Magazine. But the Indian Express usually offers a much better caliber of reporting.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dulleswatcher
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 4:39 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:42 am

Sean, I am deeply impressed and grateful for your reply and clarification above. As for the Swiss nitwits who posted slot times, they clearly don't understand the MANPADS danger today. Cheers and keep the great India info coming! It really makes this site worth the bother. ak
Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
JFKviaPHX
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:31 am

RE: Air India 744 Parked In Delaware For The Week

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:07 pm

I'll answer the JFK question about the General Assembly flights. There is not enough room to store all the aircraft at JFK. They have been coming in all week and leaving within a few hours to make room for everyone else. When air Force One came in on Monday the empty T5 resembled the old TWA days. (They closed the GAT for a short while.)Most of the planes were business jets, but the area was very tight.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, AS512, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], cero852, gennadius, Google Adsense [Bot], Jetstar315, legacyins, mafaky, marky, pugman211, tcaeyx, WIederling, wrcairline, zkncj and 226 guests