NYC777
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Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:13 am

Interesting little article:

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=&fArticleId=2234726

I think he's right, IMO.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
keesje
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:17 am

I think he´s not right & orders prove it.

BTW, I think he didn´t say "Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake" it´s the usual press tactic creating sensation by combining words & pulling things out of context..

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
jasepl
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:23 am

LOL! What do you expect Boeing to say? That Airbus made a brilliant decision and are going to come up with a great aircraft that is going to be a resounding success?
 
David_itl
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:23 am



Well blow me, fancy the Boeing headman not congratulating Airbus for it's aircraft  Insane

The truth is that both A380 and 7E7 are needed (even if that's a hard concept for some people to accept!)

David
 
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scbriml
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:23 am

If Boeing say it often enough, then it will come true. But just in case Airbus get it right, then we'll join the party.  Insane

Just more A vs B hot air.
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keesje
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:24 am

Boeing chief executive Harry Stonecipher said he believes European competitors Airbus has made a mistake in deciding to build the giant A380 plane, but said that if he's proven wrong, then Boeing would also build a super-sized plane.

http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story.asp?StoryId=Cqvd4WeientuWm0jVzwLUz2jVC3nbAxjIDq

Stonecipher is an aviation veteran, he is smart enough to formulate things right.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
knoxibus
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:28 am

"I love it when our competitors make a mistake,"

In France we have a saying, which literally translates into: " Do not sell the bear's skin before killing it...". No that I totally disagree with him, but hey, 139 orders for such a niche market aircraft before it even flies, come on, give it some credits.

Boeing was not competing with another company, but actually with three European governments who had spread out a safety net for Airbus, he charged, referring Germany, France and Spain, the three main partner countries in the Airbus programme.

Heeelllllloooooo, heard about a company called BAe Systems???

Loads of valuable arguments in that "wonderful article"...
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
brons2
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:29 am

It's a prestige plane.

They'll never recover the $12 billion development cost.

But some aviation geeks will enjoy it.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:32 am

What else would you expect Boeing to say? That it's a great aircraft and everyone should buy one? It would be like Airbus saying the same about the 7e7!

I believe the A380 will fill an important niche in commercial aviation. It's been mentioned before, the A380 is the best way to increase available seats at super congested airports like LHR and high density routes without adding additional flights. And let's not forget the airplane's projected cargo capacity in it's belly and as a full freighter.

Obviously, time will tell, but I believe it will succeed and more airlines will order it as it proves itself in service. Let's wait and see.

cheers, Ralph
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qr332
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:39 am

The aircraft IMO is not a giant mistake, and will be successful because as MD80Nut mentioned it is greatly needed on high capacity routes, airlines can cut down the amount of flights per day and can carry the same amount of passengers (for less) at the same time - something no airline would mind.

"I love it when our competitors make a mistake," Stonecipher said about the Airbus A380, a twin-deck plane designed to carry upwards of 600 passengers.

I still don't see the mistake, the plane isn't even out yet for them to say that  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

"The 7E7 is already the most successful new development of all time. It will be a hit," he predicted.

What a big surprise, he praises the 7E7 but bashes the A380 to hell.

Lets not turn this into an A vs B war
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jasepl
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:44 am

The 7E7 is already the most successful new development of all time. It will be a hit," he predicted

Has Stonecipher seen his own order sheet?
 
NYC777
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:48 am

Has Stonecipher seen his own order sheet?

Yeah, 52 firm orders in 5 months in this economy is not bad along with 14 orders whose contracts are to be signed soon and with strong interest from other airlines along with the rumored orders from China and NW. I think Boeing and Stonecipher has every reason to be confident in the 7E7.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
jaysit
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:56 am

Of course he's going to say that.

Those 120 A380 orders are equivalent to a loss of about 200 744 and/or 773 orders for Boeing.

Clearly a lot of airlines needed a super high capacity aircraft and have ordered it. The A380 may not make a ton of money for Airbus, but it sure as hell has dented Boeing's high capacity wide-bodied sales.
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Udo
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:00 am

Some people have just never looked beyond their usual uncongested Austin-San Antonio jungle jet runs...so how should they know that big airlines in the big world out there need larger aircraft than those used in upper Texas?  Wink/being sarcastic

15 airlines, close to 150 orders, with still two years to service entry is already a success story...and some hot candidates for the A380 haven't even joined the group yet...British Airways or Cathay Pacific...it's just a matter of time. And since China's aviation market is growing like crazy, we will soon see more orders from that region.
Just look at Shanghai and how many airlines have increased capacity and frequencies to that city...has anybody thought three years ago that Dubai-Shanghai might become an almost certain A380 route? Or five years ago? And some people want to call the A380 a mistake two years ahead of service entry? Seems not very professional to me...

Oh, and if managers of profitable and all time successful airlines such as Singapore Als, Virgin Atlantic, Emirates or Qantas are aviation geeks because they decided for the A380...well, then some carriers like Delta or US Airways should soon try to get one of the geeks, because those obviously know how to run a profitable airline...  Laugh out loud


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Udo
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col
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:03 am

And this weeks crazy prize goes to Harry. Why do they have to continue this stupidity, when all you have to do is look at the order books of both aircraft. Hey stupid folks at Airbus and Boeing, while you enter these slanging matches you are questioning your customers decision making. Now who is making the mistakes!
 
jasepl
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:16 am

Yeah, 52 firm orders in 5 months in this economy is not bad along with 14 orders whose contracts are to be signed soon and with strong interest from other airlines along with the rumored orders from China and NW. I think Boeing and Stonecipher has every reason to be confident in the 7E7.

He can be as confident as he wants. But considering the 7E7's supposedly the Messiah of aviation that everyone should desperately want and not a niche craft like the 380, he's in no position to make such statements.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:29 am

I am a huge Boeing fan, but I believe the A-380 is an important aircraft that should succeed as a niche aircraft. I earnestly hope that it does succeed, since Airbus will always push my beloved Boeing to look for new and important improvements. The competition is what helps to keep the price of aircraft down, and technology moving forward. In short we ALL benefit from this delighfull competition.

That being said, both aircraft will be very successful, but since Boeing does not have the $ to spend to develop a 4 engine version of the 7e7 with two decks, we will all have to wait and see what develops.

Did anyone seriously expect him to say "I recommend everyone buy ten?" Do we think that Abus will say "You know, the 7e7 IS better than our A-330, so I recommend that you buy that instead?"
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UA744KSFO
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:33 am

"Lets not turn this into an A vs B war"

It was an A vs B war from the second that the thread started:

"Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing ... I think he's right, IMO."

Now this is just asking to start an A vs. B war.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:40 am

The A380 will fullfill it's purpose while the 7E7 will fullfill it's purpose. They are actually BOTH needed and they are BOTH important a/c. Robert NWDC10
 
spacecadet
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:55 am

Some people have just never looked beyond their usual uncongested Austin-San Antonio jungle jet runs...so how should they know that big airlines in the big world out there need larger aircraft than those used in upper Texas?

I'm not personally a big fan of the A380, but I think you hit it here. Despite the fact that Boeing sells aircraft worldwide, and despite the fact that they're obviously continuously doing market research, they're still an American company and they seem to occasionally have an obvious bias towards the American market. They don't seem to quite grasp the concept of large international cities with slot-limited airports that only have one or two runways.

I think Boeing's probably right in that Airbus won't make back its investment on the A380. But who cares? France can just throw the company some more cash to make up for the loss. The fact is it's taking orders away from Boeing, and Boeing actually needs to pay its own way with the business it generates.

On some routes, only the largest aircraft available will work. The rest of the world doesn't always desire (or can't even support) our concept of increased service frequency in smaller airplanes.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
kim777fan
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:10 am

I only had to read 2 posts to see where this was going.

1. The American puts up a post about a Boeing executive saying the A380 is a mistake, and 2. the European counters it by saying that orders for the plane are strong.

Interesting that when "asked what Boeing would do if the A380 turns out to be a success, he said: "Then we will also build a large airplane - and faster than you can say 'Airbus'."

How could they role out a product that fast, unless they already have something on the drawing board just in case.

I frankly think the A380 is not a mistake, but it is still a niche aircraft that doesn't warrant TWO aviation giants spending billions in development costs to fight over a relatively small market. That would be like the DC10 and Lockheed TriStar all over again. Great planes both, but really only room enough for one.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:17 am

I rest my case on this article  Insane

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flybyguy
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:57 am

I think the A380 has the ability to better than the 130 or so orders. The economy will inevitably get better and when that does skyway congestion will supplant any desires to increase flight frequencies. High capacity airliners will be needed by many airlines once the world economy turns around.

The efficiency of the Boeing 787 (or 808) will be also a great asset in the future and allow the airlines' bottom line to be reached in style. I expect at least triple the initial order amount within the next decade.

Why bicker over two different aircraft from two different companies designed for two different niches? The respective manufacturers know where they are headed with their respective designs.

"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
cedarjet
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:07 am

I agree with the previous poster who said Americans should travel outside of Dallas to San Antonio (I was going to say "Dallas to Atlanta on an MD80"); the A380 is desperately needed. If the British Airports Authority (BAA plc) say that 1 in 8 (or was it 1 in 6) movements in 2010 at Heathrow will be an A380, in what way could the aircraft be considered a "giant mistake"?! What does he think all the big longhaul airlines of the world should use to replace their 747-400s? New, identical 747-400s? Or an up to date, larger, more efficient design? The only mistake here is Boeing's, who have not bothered to update their product line and expect airlines to reorder 737s and 747s for generations to come, as though it was still 1975. Well, technology moves forward whether you like it or not, and if you can't embrace it and sell it to your customers, they will find it elsewhere.

Please, my American friends, don't mistake this for a US-bashing, Boeing-bashing post. I love America and I especially love Boeing, and that goes for all Europeans on here - we all had our first flights on Boeings. So when we're critical of Boeing, it's cos it hurts to see our best mate lose the plot, not cos we want to see them dead or anything. Stonecipher needs to wake up and smell the coffee, and look at Boeing's rapidly shrinking product line, instead of claiming the 7E7 is the biggest success story of all time (52 orders!) while the 747, 757 and 767 slink off into the sunset.
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a380900
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:12 am

"Boeing was not competing with another company, but actually with three European governments"

Boeing was not competing. Period! Instead, they were busy making profits with their cash cows and stopped creating airplanes for a while.
 
N766UA
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:17 am

I love how Airbus describes the 7E7 as looking "like an A330 with a sexy paintjob." Last I checked, the 7E7 looks absolutly nothing like the A330 save for it's a twin. The nose, wings, tail, and windows are totally different.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:25 am

...strong interest from other airlines along with the rumored orders from China and NW.

According to Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine, it lists the possibility of a joint purchase of 7E7 between KLM and NW.

As for the topic, both planes are not even in service yet.....or should I mention, NEITHER aircraft has flown yet. Orders dont count right now until both planes ARE IN THE AIR and have passed the tests then we can debate.... I could care less about orders, I care about of the programs are a success and can do what both companies say they will do and meet those goals, no less than that...

Who gives a flying *bleep* about orders right now?? Geezus!! Let the folks at Airbus and Boeing do their jobs: Getting their products on the air and meet performance standards.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:28 am

Airbus and Boeing are being as bad as each other in this regard. Look at Boeing, they say this yet there is cleary a demand for such an airliner as air traffic increases at a great rate.

Then look at Airbus, i still remember their comment towards the 7E7, telling the world that they weren't at all worried about it. The very next thing they said was they were developing a competing airliner. Why would they do that if they didn't think the 7E7 posed any threat to them?

It's like being back at primary school sometimes...

Cheers,

Jeff
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magiccarpet
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:34 am

I am totally sold to the idea fuel consumption savings on the 7E7 from NIL customer bleed and the concept of pylon change is brilliant; especially for the leasing co. Having said that i want to know about Wing/Nacelle Anti-Ice on the 7E7 ?

Regards the A380, i've my doubts. I am a staunch AIRBUS man, i find AB designs quite sensible, infact Boeing has foll AB design, like the doors & flt ctls on the 777. However the A380 is a massive gamble, mind you the B747 was a default; military reject, cleared for civilian use.

We shall see..................



 
boeingbus
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:54 am

The A380 is needed and it will ultimately be a success but why should Boeing invest in this segment for so few orders? The A380 has sold 130 or so... it's alright but not anything spectacular... and various articles on the net suggests that Airbus is practically begging the Chinese to order. This leads to the fact that there is absolutely no way that Airbus and Boeing could be successful in this same segment of 550 Plus.

For the time being, Boeing is doing right by not offering a competitor to the A380 and look to improve the 747Adv. At the same, time Airbus has a winner and is king w/ A380.

As a side note, I must say that Airbus needs to reevaluate their 'bread and butter' A330/340 to remain competitive in the future as the 7E7/777 are superior.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
drexotica
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:29 am

What is the going price of an A380 and what is the general profit margin for wide-body aircraft? I am curious how many is break even given the $12B A380 development cost (presuming this figure is accurate).

Erik
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Rj111
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:56 am

Stonecipher and Leahy are getting pretty immature these days.

"The 7E7 is already the most successful new development of all time."

And suddenly the Pyramids/Great Wall of China/Apollo program/Concorde pale into insignificance.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:00 am

He didn't give any examples on how Airbus has made an error. I believe the 380 will cost much more than Airbus is letting on. Oh well time will tell I guess, we should reserve opinion till it actually gets airborne.
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L-188
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:01 am

How many of those buys of the current A380 orders where aware that the aircraft was going to be so overweight?

I haven't heard anything about those issues being solved yet, last number I heard was 14,000 lbs.

Weight eats into fuel efficency, payload and can have a very negivitve impact on projected profitablity.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Propulsion
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:06 am


It is still very early for both aircraft to be prolciamed as either runaway successes or fruitless failures. Two important points need to be considered in future and are apparent in my mind:

1.) How popular will the Airbus A330 Upgrade be as a rival to the Boeing 7e7?

2.) How many A380s will Emirates cancel or not take delivery of?

3.) If the answer to question 2 is zero, than will British Airways lease them off Emirates?
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
brons2
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:10 am

Some people have just never looked beyond their usual uncongested Austin-San Antonio jungle jet runs...so how should they know that big airlines in thebig world out there need larger aircraft than those used in upper Texas?

There are no scheduled AUS-SAT runs. It's only 57nm apart.

Some of us Americans are well aware of the world aviation market, and even travel to other parts of the world!

I'm sure the airlines that will buy the A380 will find it a useful tool. Many need the largest plane possible, and now that the A380 is it, they're buying it instead of the 747. On packed trunk routes, it no doubt will be an operational success.

However, I stand firm by my assertion that it will never make a dime for Airbus and EADS. $12 billion in development! In order to break even in the 250 planes they have stated, the profit margin on each would have to be close to $50 million per plane! Does anyone really believe that Airbus is making $50 mil per plane at launch prices? I most certainly do not. And if they aren't making any money on it, how do you really define "success"?
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
N754PR
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:30 am

Boeing are a funny lot

717... failed
736... failed
753... failed
764... failed
744ER failed

Any they are talking about the A380........ mostly because they have nothing new to compete with it.

Al these posts about the A380 are getting old, can't we just wait for the thing to fly, then if all the airlines cancel it ITS FAILED.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
N79969
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:52 am

Airbus and Boeing make self-serving remarks about the each others planes all the time. Nothing new. I think Leahy is the most egregious offender of them all though.

**********************


N754PR,

You omitted the 772ER, 773ER, 73G, and 738...honest mistake I'm sure. If you start counting Airbus economic failures starting A300B2K1 (or something like that) you would get a longer list and tally up a much larger amount of wasted capital.

If you take into account how many of these planes are derivatives built on existing, functioning product lines you only end up with the B717 a product line inherited through merger.

Cedarjet,

Plenty of us have traveled out of the United States and still think that economics of the A380 are questionable. Airlines hubbed at some of the world's most congested airports and that would ostensibly benefit the most from the airplane have not ordered it yet: British Airways, All Nippon, Japan Airlines, and arguably Northwest.

Whether the A380 cost 2 billion or 20 billion USD to develop, there would be airlines that would want to buy 555 seat airplanes because they can sell the seats. No question.

However airline demand for the airplane is an independent issue from whether it makes economic sense for a manufacturer to actually build the airplane. The number of orders is not a very good variable for determining whether the A380 makes economic sense for Airbus or not.

For 200 billion USD, I think either Boeing or Airbus could come up with technology and materials for an airliner the size of B737/A320 that gets better fuel burn than a C172 and that airlines would buy. Clearly that is an exaggeration but you see my point.
 
Propulsion
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:03 am


N754PR:

I think you appear a little confused. You incorrectly claim all the listed Boeing models to be failures and yet set the benchmark for condemning the A380 as failure at 'if all the airlines cancel it, it's failed'.

Let me see, on that basis an airplane with one order would be deemed a success and definitely a triumph over the A380.  Confused

A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
ny-jfk-lga
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:19 am

Was the 747 a mistake then?
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dan2002
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:36 am

754PR
I wouldnt call the 717 a failure , with 167 orders. And most of those aircrat have over 150 orders, which is more than the A380, which by your logic would be a failure also.

The Airbus failure list:

A320-100
A318
A300B2
A300C4
A340-500
A319LR
A321-100(151 delivered, not a "hot" aircraft)
A340-200
A400M


/Dan
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:56 am

Dan,

I would hardly say that many of those aircraft you mentioned are failures. Many of the -100 series made by Airbus as only preludes to upgraded versions, which, when available, supercede the older models. This doesn't really make them failures. Also many of the aircraft you mention are mere slight derivatives of the main models, derivatives of which would have had very low development costs which would have been easy to recoup.
Sure, using this logic I think we can say that the A318 is a failure so far. The A340-200 has not been very popular but I am not sure whether enough have been sold for that derivative to be declared profitable or not.
I think we could probably safely say that Boeing have been disappointed in the sales of many of it's new aircraft and despite being derivatives, have lost money on them such as the 753, 764, 744ER. Not sure if the 717 has made money or not.
I guess the Boeing fans can never just step back and look at things logically as they have rose tinted glasses on and hate the enemy pure and simple. I love Boeings. I fly them and think they're great aircraft, but sometimes the pro-Boeing anti-Airbus crap gets very tiring.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:01 pm

Stonecipher and Leahy are getting pretty immature these days.

"The 7E7 is already the most successful new development of all time."

And suddenly the Pyramids/Great Wall of China/Apollo program/Concorde pale into insignificance.


Let's not forget the Maginot Line! Big grin But seriously, I hope they meant aircraft...


All these speculations are just speculations. The 747 is clearly a success now, but were 35 years after first flight. Even in the early 70s it would still have been iffy to answer the question: "Is the 747 a success?" Economics on this scale take a long time to add up.

While speculating is fun (we arere A.nutters, after all) I think we won't really know if the 380 or the 7E7 are economic successes until at least 2015-2020.

Now I don't know if we can keep the thread going until then, but we can always start a new one  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N754PR
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RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:02 pm

Its not even worth trying when so many here are either American or Boeing fans....

OK, Airbus are a failure, their planes don't sell, they sell them under cost and the A380 is going to be the biggest flop in histroy.

All the Boeing and American camp happy....... ?

Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:14 pm

Okay folks, lets do a little bit of basic maths.

Here is the problem for Boeing. It's 7e7 may use a lot more fuel, but does it save enough to justify ditching a fairly new A330?

Lets say you are in a situation where fuel is 20% of your operating expenses. Now I come up with an aircraft that saves 25 % fuel burn. The real trouble is, after you do the sums, that converts into only a 1.5% total savings costs!!!!!

So if i've got to replace my aircraft anyway, great it makes sense. But to prematurely write off a reasonably new aircraft for a 1.5% TOTAL expenses saving in fuel is probably not going to was in terms of sunk expenditure.

So, all those airlines, INCLUDING northwest that are current A330 customers, are unlikely to do this purely on those grounds. The company's that are likely to buy such an aircraft are those like United, Delta and American. They would be good 767 growth replacements. The real problem here is that these companies have run out of money. That is what is holding the 7e7 back.
 
Pacific
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Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2000 2:46 pm

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:25 pm

Negative marketing is just sad. B bashes A, A bashes B, vice versa but it is one sad part of "free market".

What do those comments do? Nothing productive comes out of it, sheer human stupidity. When B does it, I think it makes THEM look stupid, and vice versa when A does it.

As for the A380, I would love to see it fly but I wonder if they've got a solution to the weight problem.

As for the 7E7, I would also love to see it fly but I wonder if it really can cut fuel consumption by such a margin.

Any new plane under development will have their own problems and it is up to the companies' competancy to provide accurate performance projections and solutions.
 
flyibaby
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:27 pm

One thing I think Boeing has an advantage on the A380 with right now is airports. I read alot of people arguing the advantage of flying this huge jet to slot restricted airports to reduce the amount of flying needed. The problem with having a flight as big is this is weight and the sheer size. Airports will have to completely modify exisiting tarmacs and ramps just to be able to sustain the weight as well as lengthing some runways to accomodate an aircraft that surely will need a few extra feet to land coming in that heavy. Airports will need to upgrade facilities to accomodate up to 600 people and I'm sure that more airports will need to switch to buried fuel lines to accomodate the fuel capacity needed. The expenditures alone that airports will need to accomodate might slow the delivery of this aircraft in my mind. I love the idea of a plane of this size, I just don't know if the current airport infrastructure can handle.
 
N317AS
Posts: 941
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 1:25 pm

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:58 pm

Here's a surprise. As a 20+ year Boeing employee, I hope the 7E7 and the A380 are succesful. Competition is good. I am about as sick of the A vs B crap as I am with the D vs R crap. I personally will never fly on an A380, but not because it's Airbus, just because I don't want to be trapped with 600 of my not so close friends. I can't wait until it flies within view of my camera though.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
AirframeAS
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:57 pm

C'mon you guys....get real!! Neither plane has taken flight yet so we dont know any specifics about performance at all. WE DONT KNOW YET!!! Lets wait until Airbus and Boeing get these machines in the air and tests conducted and the results posted THEN we can debate. These A vs. B wars are getting real real real old pretty fast......

Lets just wait and see what comes out of these tests, okay??
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
mas a330
Posts: 1476
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 11:12 pm

RE: Giant Airbus Is A Giant Mistake, Says Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:16 pm

Cant they just do their own thing, and not verbally abuse each other?