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drerx7
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Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:41 am

Continental follows suit (DL to PEK) with proposed service from EWR to Shanghai and Beijing.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040922/daw032_1.html
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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STT757
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:21 am

"Continental requests permission to inaugurate service to Beijing in the spring of 2005 and to Shanghai in the spring of 2006, subject to government approval."

Im surprised that they picked Beijing to be the first route, I would have thought they would have gone with Shanghai first since there is no existing nonstop flight from the NYC area to Shanghai. Beijing gets a nonstop flight from JFK 4Xs weekly nonstop via Air China.

I think CO's application is very strong, especially with their EWR hub from which both routes are to operate. They would create competition on the NY-Beijing flight against a Chinese airline and they would be establishing a totally new route to Shanghai from the NYC area.

The two other airlines (AA, DL) applications I feel are not as strong as CO's, AA's application for ORD-PVG would have them competition against UAL on the ORD-Shanghai route . The Governments would rather have a US and Chinese carrier competing against each other than two US or two Chinese carriers competition on the same route.

DL I feel is the long shot since their application is the most complicated because of issues with DL's current health, the length of the route and obvious prominence (business wise) flights to the NYC and Chicago areas would have over the Southeast.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Cory6188
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:24 am

It's great that CO wants to start service to China...but with what aircraft? The 777s they don't have?

On a separate note, I really think that it's a long shot for DL to get ATL-China. After all, how much demand is there for flights from ATL to China? You can argue that there is demand for connections, but except for people in Florida (that could go to EWR anyway), who's going to fly down to ATL just to backtrack to China?

Also, how long will it be before the airlines find out if their requests have been granted?

[Edited 2004-09-22 23:25:26]
 
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STT757
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:27 am

CO has one or two outstanding options with Boeing for 777s, how fast they can be excersised Im not sure.

There's always they leasing option, perhaps there might be a couple of GE90 Powered 777-200s available.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
nwa man
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:28 am

It's great that CO wants to start service to China...


Word on the street is that CO already flies between EWR and HKG...



Create your own luck.
 
Cory6188
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:29 am

Okay, NWA Man, I guess you're right. However, I don't really consider HKG to be part of China proper (even though it may be).
 
behramjee
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:57 am

NWA MAN...there is no word on the street...CO has been flying nonstop EWR-HKG for 2-3 years now with B 772ERs.

Yes CO would do very well from flying EWR-PEK/PVG nonstop because of the number of connections it can offer via its mega EWR hub.

CO should also look into applying to fly a IAH-CHINA flight either to PEK or PVG to cater for the traffic in the US Southern and Central areas such as DFW-IAH-SAN-PHX-LAS-New Orleans-STL etc.

DLs flights from ATL to China will have not even 10% O&D traffic bound for ATL...a vast majority obviously will be transitting passengers unless ofcourse youre a CNN or COCA COLA company employee working in ATL  Big grin

DL would be wiser codesharing with CO or NWA to China...preferably with CO as NWA can in anycase manage on its own to CHINA as its an established airline there with a good reputation to USA.

As for where CO will get extra B 777s for these China routes...well to begin with, they need a total of 4 more B 777s for daily PEK flights and another 3-4 for daily PVG flights from EWR!!! So yes it does raise an interesting question...where will these extra B 772ERs come from?

Are COs B 777s the same as UALs or DLs??? If so then they can lease or purchase the unused B 772ERs of theirs.
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:33 am

CO has 18 777s right now. The utilization is horrid on the HKG route (12 or so hours on the ground in HKG) More utilization could also be found to TLV.

It only takes 2 aircraft to fly to HKG. remember that the planes rotate through the system, to just fly EWR-HKG on the current schedule would thake 3 planes, but the EWR-HKG plane arrives from Europe, and the HKG-EWR plane leaves for Europe.

There is no way for either of the routes to use more than 2 planes.

CO Has 2 paid for yet to be exercized options on 777 so those could be delivered by 2005, and an order could be placed to recieve 2 more in 2006.

EWR-India has also been thrown around, plus all of the expansion into europe, dont be surprized when CO orders 15 or so 767s and 777s from Boeing.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
kim777fan
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:35 am

"After all, how much demand is there for flights from ATL to China?"

This isn't your great-grandfather's Atlanta. We're now talking about one of the premiere financial centers in North America. It still isn't a New York, but who is???

"DL would be wiser codesharing with CO or NWA to China"

I'm sure that's going to happen anyway, regardless of how DL's application turns out.
 
Max Q
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:27 am

Just curious, where do you see that CAL has options for 2 more triples?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:53 am

The origional 777 order was for 16 firm and 18 options, and the origional 764 order was for 26 firm and 10 options. After shufling things around with Boeing CO has 2 paid for 777s that they have not set a delivery date for, plus a bunch of 777 and 767 (any series) options. They may even have some firm 767s without a delivery date set. They havenot been totaly thrilled with the economics of the 764, hence the conversion of the 2 orders to 777s. Bethune used to be an executive with Boeing and CO has signed and exclusitivity contract with Boeing, so it was easier to make the conversions between the types.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
corey07850
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:02 am

I actually posted this info (without cities proposed) on sunday... amazing what information a.net provides...

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1746312/6/
 
Max Q
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:11 am

CO2BGR

Was looking for something more up to date than that, I know what the original orders were, but, as you mention those have all been changed.

Not sure where you get your info that CAL is 'unhappy with the economics of the 764' but I can assure you that is not the case.I have flown the aircraft since it was originally delivered to us,to Europe, South America, and across the
Pacific as far as Tokyo.

When it was first delivered there were many occasions when we flew a leg substituting a DC10 and I was able to compare directly,fuel burn/payload
performance and can tell you the mprovement on just, for example the Sao-Paulo Ewr run was close to 50,000 lbs less fuel burnt.

Do you have anything more current on the status of options?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:01 pm

The problem with the 764s to europe the BizFirst to coach ratio and the number of BizFirst seats compared to the 777s. The costs were less than the 10s but they were selling out the BizFirst cabin on the 764s. The problem comes in the structural configuration of the aircraft, specifcly the 2nd exit doors. They would have loved to have 8 rows of BizFirst in there with 2 less coach rows. My dad is a CO 756 FO and has also been on the equipment since the before the 767s came online, and that is what I had discused with him when they were getting the 767s at the time. Management's views may have changed since then. This was back when they were discusing getting 763s as well.


As for the 2 paid for 777 options, it was mentioned by another CO employee in another thread discussing more CO expansion roumors. I will try to find it and reference it.

There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
aa777jr
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:32 pm

AA should be in PEK soon.

AA777jr
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AAnalyst
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:36 pm

AA should be in PEK soon.

Make that PVG. AA announced today that we're submitting our application for ORD-PVG with a tentative start date of May 2005.
Knowledge is Power. Power Corrupts. - Study Hard, Be Evil
 
ua777222
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:41 pm

Are COs B 777s the same as UALs or DLs??? If so then they can lease or purchase the unused B 772ERs of theirs.

CO's 777's are GE 90-90B (90,000lb's) powered
UA's 777's I THINK are PW 4090 (90,000lb's) powered
DL's 777's are RR 892's (90,000lb's) powered

So there are 2 different engines. I thought the same. I know that CO is an airline that trys to have aircraft familiarity and with the addition of a new engine type that means more training and other issues that would just make it harder but if they want/need it that bad then that's what needs to be done.

They are in dire need for widebody a/c. US might be getting rid of a few 762's as is DL. There are many AC 767's in the desert. If they want these 777 to be freed up a bit this might be the way to go. The only issue is that these a/c have passed hands so many times and are extremely old.

The other thing to do would be follow through with what orders they have left with Boeing. AA too has a few 777's on order that they don't want yet. DL says their keeping their orders....... So many options.

Thanks again.

UA777222

Can anyone tell me what the UA powerplants are? I know they're P&W but what option?

*******Everything stated above is MY OPINION and do not reflect the opinion(s) of Contiental Airlines or any of their affiliates *******
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:43 pm

Sorry to disapoint you two AA fans, but DL, AA, And CO have submitted aplications to to compete for 7 weekly flights between the US and China. Only of the three will be flying to China next year.

[Edited 2004-09-23 05:44:04]
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
AAnalyst
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:50 pm

I'm not dissapointed CO2BGR, I know that AA has submitted apps to fly to China many, many times in the 6 years I've been with them. I don't have my hopes up.

I just hope that this time they don't award the additional slots to either UA or NW, which seems to be a pattern lately.
Knowledge is Power. Power Corrupts. - Study Hard, Be Evil
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:58 pm

Yes it would be very nice to see some new metal into China rather than connect in NRT. Sorry if I offended you but it seemed that between yours and AA777jr that you guys thought it was a done deal.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
AA767400
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:59 pm

CO2BGR, I am sorry to disappoint you? How do you know that AA, or DL for that matter, will not be getting the slots? How do you know that CO, will be the one getting these slots? Do you have some kind of inside to this, that others don't? Because most likely you don't. And your statement makes no sense what so ever.  Insane
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CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:07 pm

AA767400: That statement was made towad AA777jr and Aanalyst. No I do not have any inside information, but based on their comments combined It seemed like they thought it was a done deal and AA was flying ORD-PVG, when in fact they are competing for the slots.

Edit: In that post I wrote I am sorry to dissapoint you TWO AA fans, TWO being the keyword refering to AA777jr amd Aanalyst.

[Edited 2004-09-23 06:10:43]
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
N830MH
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:22 am

Always to need active with the link < > and here it is:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040922/daw032_1.html

This is smart move for DL and now CO is going to PEK & PVG, too. It will receiving with more the 777 aircraft on their way.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:26 am

More than likely--Continental will temporarily downgrade some flights to free up 777s until more come online--if they are granted the route authority.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
COEWRNJ
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:24 am

Does anyone know when the first of these route authorities are to be awarded?
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:08 am

COEWRNJ: The first award will be for spring of 2005.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
CALMSP
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:21 am

i highly doubt we will downgrade flights..........what would we downgrade? these will be new aircraft.......the only ther option is to take away maybe the 777 for MAN/LGW and turn MAN into 2-3 757's or LGW to one 777 and 2-3 757s
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:41 am

CO has a record with downgrading some flights to be able to start new service. They generally do not use their widebodies on domestic flights but they have some hanging around. They are still taking deliveries of RJs so they can patch some short domestic gaps with the RJs and use the narrowbodies for the transcons. The 762s they have on the EWR-LAX and similar routes, will then be used as the a/c which start the new routes.
Also, I don't get the CO issue with the configuration of the 764s. It was stated about that they want to put more J/F seats in the A/C. If they wanted to do that, what would some of the 764s have a smaller J/F cabin. I don't know why they couldn't put more F/J seats if they wanted?
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
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drerx7
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:49 am

Those 764s (76H or 767) with smaller J/F cabins are for their Pacific ops--as they do not sell as many B/F seats.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:45 am

I know they call the smalle f/j cabined 764s hawaii configured. When they need more, they just add f/j seats to the rest of the front cabin.
"The problem with the 764s to europe the BizFirst to coach ratio and the number of BizFirst seats compared to the 777s. The costs were less than the 10s but they were selling out the BizFirst cabin on the 764s. The problem comes in the structural configuration of the aircraft, specifcly the 2nd exit doors. They would have loved to have 8 rows of BizFirst in there with 2 less coach rows."

Ummmmmmm
777 48 J/F with 78" pitch, they could make it closer to the 767 pitch if they wanted to fit more seats.
762 25 room on this one for moreJ/F seats in the front cabin
767 20 room on this one for more J/F seats in the front cabin
764 35 the whole front cabin is equiped with J/F seats - how many more seats do you want. If you want another few rows, you can go into the middle cabin. The exit rows are in the middle of the lavs and galleys. They already have 2 J/F cabins on the 777. They have the middle cabin outfitted with 3 rows of J/F.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:52 am

Can anyone tell me what the UA powerplants are? I know they're P&W but what option?

The first 777-222A were PW 4077, the latter 777-222ER are PW 4090

---

As for CO's widebody needs, as the 738 and 752 are equipt with winglets, can more and more be put on international duty?
 
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airzim
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:57 pm

Larry Kellner stated in an employee meeting (that I was admittedly not at) that even if CO wanted to acquire new widebody aircraft they could not secure financing for any additional frames (except narrow body 737's at 10 per year).
 
chinaeastern
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:46 pm

well, not surprising DL and CO applied PEK first, as they are both in skyteam and CZ has much more extensive network out of PEK than PVG and even the flights out of shanghai are split between PVG and SHA which makes connection hard
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:07 pm

I didn't know that DL applied for flights to ATL.

As for CO--don't bet on it! DL applied for a JFK flight to China a few years back and it was rejected. I would say that CO's hub is much bigger than DL's in the NY area, but it crosses the entire country.
That was the issue with DLs original plan.

But then again, how many flights to ORD can they have?

As for ATL--that request doesnt hold much water. Yes, Atlanta has grown--but I doubt there are many people in Bejing with Georgia on their minds.

PJ
 
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drerx7
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RE: Continental To China 2005/2006

Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:41 pm

Exactly--and it only efficiently serves the southeast/carribbean transfer passengers. IMO--It seems that an application from Texas to China (AA/CO) would have been the strongest case, at least from a connection point of view. This is the view I have from my multizero dollar position as arm chair CEO.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised