yul332LX
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AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:30 am

FYI, Milton mentioned in an interview published today in a Montréal newspaper that Air Canada could start routes to BEY and Teheran eventually. He stated that since no American carriers currently fly to those cities, AC would have an advantage (occasions) if they ever started those routes…

AC was supposed to start YUL-BEY around may '03 but this route was later cancelled so I wouldn't put to much hope on this.

[Edited 2004-09-25 20:31:14]
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ETStar
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:33 am

Both cities, while I am sure they would be successful, are prone to difficulty for political reasons. Canada has a huge population of Lebanese and Iranian descent.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:19 am

Both cities, while I am sure they would be successful, are prone to difficulty for political reasons.

I agree. AC should still continue to push for rights to these 2 markets. Any entry into these markets ahead of US carriers would be a marketing coup.

Canada has a huge population of Lebanese and Iranian descent.

Moreover, AC could advertise the service in the US and South America.



[Edited 2004-09-25 21:21:17]
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:45 am

Everybody agrees huge marketing potential on both these routes. But what has changed politically since the magic carpet was pulled out from under the BEY flight last year? If you believe the theory that the US "encouraged" the suspension of the proposed YUL-BEY routing, what chance does Teheran stand. Seems that Iran is in a tie with North Korea for the USA's preferred "Axis of Evil" countries.
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solnabo
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:54 am

How about Indian´s and Pakistani people living in Canada? Quite a lot I guess...

How are the AC routes to N Dehli / Islamabad? I´m just curius...

Thx

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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:54 am

But what has changed politically since the magic carpet was pulled out from under the BEY flight last year?

Nothing, which means that these routes likely remain a pipe dream.

If you believe the theory that the US "encouraged" the suspension of the proposed YUL-BEY routing, what chance does Teheran stand. Seems that Iran is in a tie with North Korea for the USA's preferred "Axis of Evil" countries.

Iran has probably less chance that BEY due to the "axil of evil" categorization.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:02 am

I agree, AC's chances of Teheran are slim, because the US Gov't will put so much pressure on the Canadian gov't, it won't even be funny.

1011yyz
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sebring
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:41 am

The article spoke of these as long-term plans. And Milton loves to namedrop. Aside from a couple of Toronto-Asia routes like Toronto-Seoul and more Canada-China which is a sure bet, I believe he was just blue-skying. AC would need A340-500s for Teheran. Given current geopolitics, I'd say Tehran in particular is 5-10 years away. We would probably have to see the overthrow of the current theocracy before there is any movement.

If AC got more A340-500s, there would be a lot of interesting candidate routes - YVR-SYD, YYZ-JNB, YYZ-BOM. None of these three routes are served nonstop from Canada, and would provide some competitive advantage to AC. While SAA flies a couple of US-JNB routes, it's now becoming a member of Star Alliance, and may wish to share a YYZ-JNB service with AC.

How about Indian´s and Pakistani people living in Canada? Quite a lot I guess...



How are the AC routes to N Dehli / Islamabad? I´m just curius...


AC likes Delhi, but doesn't fly to Pakistan. However, Karachi is on the short list for new destinations. Then again, right now AC would need another aircraft or two to launch such a long haul service. It's ULH fleet is fully allocated, and AC has no widebodies of any kind on order for the next few years, although it has some distant Airbus deliveries that could, I suppose, be advanced.

 
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:30 am

The article spoke of these as long-term plans.

Maybe Milton should focus on short term financial performance, instead of long term dreaming.

However, Karachi is on the short list for new destinations.

I doubt it. Not a single EU carrier flies to Karachi. It is considered a low-yield market with security concerns and massive corruptions. Frankly, I can't see AC every operating to KHI.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sebring
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:39 am

Of course Air Canada has a near term plan, because the financial community has been shown the list of immediate goals and initiatives and Beirut and Tehran are not on it. That list will be in the public domain later this week. As for what the route can do or cannot do, AC would have the only non-stop service to Karachi from NA, and many Pakistani expats I know here in Toronto despise PIA and book anything but.

 
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:28 am

I read the same article in the Globe and Mail. Milton also talks about increased service to smaller Cdn markets such as Kelowna. I thought the AC strategy was to reduce domestic focus to the 10 or so large cities that feed their intl network???????? This seems like a 180 deg turn now.

I think I'm beginning to see how strategic planning at AC works:
1. Next time the sun comes up, completely revamp the long term plan.
2. Blame everything that went wrong in the past on the govt, the economy & competition.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:06 am

Mr. Milton added that, longer term, Air Canada would like to enter niche markets such as Beirut and Tehran, subject to approval from Ottawa.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040925/RAIRCANADA/TPBusiness/TopStories

Looks like they are still hoping to get the approval...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:12 am

I agree, AC's chances of Teheran are slim, because the US Gov't will put so much pressure on the Canadian gov't, it won't even be funny.

Not to be incredulous... but what U.S. pressure are you refering to? I thought the BEY routes were scuttled after the Russians refused overflight of Sibera....
 
JoFMO
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:14 am

The article in the Mail and Globe sounds very promising.

Adding Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai and more latin America from Toronto. What timeframe do others here on this board expect for all this changements?
 
BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:15 am

I thought the BEY routes were scuttled after the Russians refused overflight of Sibera....

No, BEY was canceled one day before it was supposed to start and it was reported in a number of sources that it was done as a result of pressure from the US.

MEA's CEO Mohammad El Hout (MEA was going to handle the AC flight in BEY), also confirmed that it was the US that ordered Canada to cancel the flight.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
airxliban
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:31 am

i think the initial plan was for a 763, then when it was canceled they were rumoured to be coming back in 2004 with a 343.

let's hope for next year with 744s  Smile or 345s.

wishful thinking, i know...
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sebring
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:09 am

I read the same article in the Globe and Mail. Milton also talks about increased service to smaller Cdn markets such as Kelowna. I thought the AC strategy was to reduce domestic focus to the 10 or so large cities that feed their intl network???????? This seems like a 180 deg turn now.

Air Canada didn't say it was going to abandon smaller communities. It said it would reduce capacity, but that can be done by downgauging or cutting out frequencies as well as dropping a route. Some routes may be dropped but a lot of situations are being downgauged. That's why there are so many CRJ 100 on Western regional routes this winter schedule.

The whole purpose for ordering 70-100 seat aircraft was to serve a lot of routes with smaller aircraft.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:13 am

let's hope for next year with 744s or 345s

fraid the 744s are impossible since they only have about 6 weeks left at AC. As for A345, only if they can get more by then which is unlikely for some time, 343 or 763 is the best you can hope for.
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UnitedFirst
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:18 am

i think the initial plan was for a 763, then when it was canceled they were rumoured to be coming back in 2004 with a 343.

If I'm not mistaken, it was probably going to be operated by a 767-300 with a high-capacity cabin (ie, "SuperComfort" & Hospitality Service) because it was expected to be a rather low-yield route.

If this is the case, I would consider it highly unlikely to see any sort of premium international aircraft flying this route.

Derek
 
BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:06 pm

If I'm not mistaken, it was probably going to be operated by a 767-300 with a high-capacity cabin (ie, "SuperComfort" & Hospitality Service) because it was expected to be a rather low-yield route.

That was the case originally, but then they upgraded it to 767-300s with a business class because of higher than expected yields.

If this is the case, I would consider it highly unlikely to see any sort of premium international aircraft flying this route.

What's a "premium international aircraft?" Perhaps you mean bigger, newer long-haul aircraft such as the A340-500?

Well I doubt it too as they don't have enough of them as NorthStarDC4M said.

My guess is it will either be B767-300ERs or A340-300s.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ETStar
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:58 pm

DfwRevolution: Unless AC is picking up caviar on the way to BEY from YUL, there is no reason to overfly Siberia.

As for the others who mentioned US pressure on Canada, how is it that BA, through its franchise British Mediterranean, flies to BEY and THR without any pressure from their big brother? Also, BA is not the only one that flies to both cities, as AZ and AF do too!
 
BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:54 am

If I remember correctly, the issue of Air Canada flying over Siberia had to do withi Beijing and/or New Delhi.

Montreal - Beirut would fly east over the Atlantic Ocean. No way would it fly west over the Pacific ocean then onto Siberia.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
behramjee
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:09 am

Having studied at York University in Toronto for the last 4 years now, I can safely say that the prefered method of travel for all Pakistan and Indian students back home for the winter and summer holidays is on AC to LHR and then EK or GF to PAK-INDIA.

Never or very rarely do I hear of students flying PIA or Air India back home but Air Canada in the last year has become very popular for DEL bound students because they prefer the nonstop flight as they dont like transitting in 2 airports before reaching home as that adds to their flying time.
 
behramjee
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:32 am

As far as these new routes go nonstop from YYZ to PEK-PVG and ICN...firstly more A 343s/345s would be needed to fly these routes on an individual daily or 4 weekly basis so unless more A 340s come into the fleet, I dont see this happening.

With regards to AC having KHI on its short list of destinations, I highly doubt it. Though some ppl make a good point on saying that AC can provide via a nonstop flight to PAK, easy connections from YYZ to any Canadian or American city nonstop, I can assure you that the J class cabin on such flights wont be more than 10% full and majority of Eco class pax would want to pay the lowest fare possible thus making such a flight very low yield.

What would be better for AC is to fly to KHI or LHE from YYZ via DXB 4 times a week as such a flight has more high yield potential than a Canada-Pak-Canada nonstop flight. Out of KHI there is too much competition for AC to handle, so it would be better off flying to LHE or ISB via DXB.

I highly doubt that the American Govt will let AC fly to THR so lets not get our hopes up on that one.

BEY and THR surely do have massive O&D demand but is highly unlikely to materialize. And even if it does, where will the extra A 343s come from for this route???
 
behramjee
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:57 am

Air Canada should expand more into Latin America especially Brazil, Chile and Argentina because now AC is the prefered airline for the locals flying to Asia as Canada doesnt need them to get a visa and they dont suffer humiliation and hassle at USA airports whilst transitting.

By adding more nonstops from YYZ to NRT-PEK-PVG-ICN-HKG, AC stands to benefit immensely from South American traffic bound for the Far East as the airline seems to now be the only convienient and fastest option unless of course you fly MAS from EZE via JNB to KUL!!!

 
JoFMO
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:07 am

I hope more for new central American destinations. On routes South America to Asia AC also has to fight against various Eurepean carriers. GRU-NRT is nearly the same distance via FRA, NYC and LAX. Journey time depends to the schedule.

But to central America they could get feed form their Asian routes and also give European star fliers good apportunities.
 
lymanm
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:48 am

"As for the others who mentioned US pressure on Canada, how is it that BA, through its franchise British Mediterranean, flies to BEY and THR without any pressure from their big brother? Also, BA is not the only one that flies to both cities, as AZ and AF do too!"

Nefarious passengers bent on entering the US illegally who deplane in Milan, Paris and London are still quite far from the US. In Toronto, they are mere minutes from the world's longest undefended border. The US authorities would not want flights originating from an "Axis of Evil" (a term that was coined for Bush by a Canadian speechwriter, btw) directly onto North American soil.
buhh bye
 
PanAm747
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:03 pm

I would imagine the reason the Bush administration has so much trouble with either flight is that they originate from an "unsecured airports" (to use their term), and those flights cannot operate over American territory. I hate to think of the tit for tat that would be played if the U.S. denied a Canadian plane permission to enter their airspace.

There's a WHOLE lot more I'd like to say about politics and the like...but that's neither for here nor now. Just an observation.
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BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:12 pm

PanAm747,

As a regular traveler through BEY, I can assure you that security in Beirut International Airport is up to international levels and you are checked numerous times before you can enter the aircraft.

Not only that, but Beirut Airport is a modern facility that ranked the 2nd best airport in the Middle East after Dubai Int'l.

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Photo © Roland Gabriel



The fact remains the canceling of the Air Canada flight to Beirut was due to political pressure from the US, but not over security fears.

Without getting politics too much involved, it has to do with US anger as a result of 240 Marines being blown up in 1983 in Beirut. It was a very unfortunate event, but that's what happend when US leaders supported a corrupt leader to take control of Lebanon. They are bound to be met with violence and that's what happened.

It also has to do with pressure on Lebanon to disarm Hizbullah and sign unconditional peace with Israel.

Getting back to the original topic, here is a list of all the airlines that operate scheduled services to Beirut:
http://mea707.lrehosting.com/airlines.html

As you can see, pretty much all of the major European carriers serve Beirut. Air France is the largest European carrier in Beirut operating a daily B777-200ER and in the summer they bring in B747-400s.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:39 am

Here is a new article.

In its presentation, Air Canada suggested it might open new direct routes from Toronto to cities such as Moscow, Budapest and Karachi, Pakistan. The carrier might also soon fly into Manila, Casablanca and Beirut.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1096324214759&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

Here is the list of airlines that will hopefully begin Beirut service in 2005.

1) Air Canada
2) Afriqiyah Airways
3) Iberia
4) SriLankan Airlines


Obviously Air Canada will only happen if given approval.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
yul332LX
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:58 am

MNL is news to me but all the other cities have been mentioned a lot in the last few days. DXB is also on the list.

I don’t know what’s the idea behind this but AC has leaked its wish list of new destinations. Dubious strategy…

EDIT: CAI is also on the list...  Nuts


[Edited 2004-09-29 03:24:35]
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behramjee
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:10 am

I didnt find DXB on the list...though I recommend AC to fly to KHI via DXB and not nonstop to KHI as it will be more profitable flying the route YYZ-DXB-KHI-DXB-YYZ...AC will get automatically 5th freedoms on KHI-DXB-KHI as KHI and DXB have an open skies policy  Smile

AC shouldnt waste their time with MNL...best is codeshare on PAL from YVR to MNL...PAL flies MNL-YVR-LAS 3 times a week B 744s!!!

Where is BOM??? It deserves more priority and importance than BUD-MNL-KHI-SVO !!!



[Edited 2004-09-29 03:22:31]
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:25 am

Sounds like pie-in-the-sky dreaming to me.

AC's future lies exactly where it does today: on boring routes such as YYZ-YUL/YOW/YVR/YYC/LGA/LAX etc. These routes will make or break AC. Nothing else.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
yul332LX
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:26 am

Behramjee, BOM is on the list also.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
sebring
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:35 am

Sounds like pie-in-the-sky dreaming to me.

AC's future lies exactly where it does today: on boring routes such as YYZ-YUL/YOW/YVR/YYC/LGA/LAX etc. These routes will make or break AC. Nothing else.


Bucking for a strait jacket are we?

 
superdawg
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:21 pm

Here is the link to the presentation, it shows all the routes that are considered opportunities for future ops including cities like Warsaw, Prague, Cairo, Dubai, Columbo, and many more

http://www.aircanada.ca/about-us/investor/pdf/ac_sr.pdf

 
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TS-IOR
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:06 pm


Why don't AC think of TUN ? The Tunisian community in Canada, especially Quebec, is important in number and is in constant increase.

Would a YUL-TUN-BEY work ? Let's say frequency to be Tu.Th.Sa.Su./.2.4.67 using A333X or A343 or even 767s !!!
Next flight TUN-YUL Tunisair A330-243.
 
yul332LX
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:25 pm

Yields to TUN would be too low and demand for C inexistent. TS might be interested in a YUL-TUN eventually though.

The point of having YUL-BEY non-stop is to provide an alternative to travellers instead of connecting at FRA, CDG, ... With a YUL-TUN-BEY, you are essentially throwing out that aspect.


[Edited 2004-09-29 16:40:01]
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
DYK
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:53 am

I just wondering how AIr Canada plans to introduce some of these potential new routes without increasing the number of long range aircraft in their fleet between 2004-2007? Does one assume these new routes they plan will be introduced post 2007?
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:58 am

I just wondering how AIr Canada plans to introduce some of these potential new routes without increasing the number of long range aircraft in their fleet between 2004-2007? Does one assume these new routes they plan will be introduced post 2007?

They have no apparent plans to operate these routes. These routes are no more than a wish list. AC's long haul fleet is forecast to remain static for several years.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BigD
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:08 am

It will be impossible for AC to serve all of these potential routes without the addition of long range aircraft. Don't be surprised to see lease orders for additional aircraft within the next year, including the 7e7 or A350...

BigD
 
donder10
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:34 am

If AC can't make money right now,how will the addition of low-yield destinations to their network help the bottom line?Milton is leaving in a dream world.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC - Possible Future Routes: BEY And Teheran

Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:17 am

If AC can't make money right now,how will the addition of low-yield destinations to their network help the bottom line?

They can't, and won't.

Milton is leaving in a dream world.L

Correct. CEO of a corporation that goes from profitability to bankruptcy in <5 years. It is indeed a dream world. With no accountability.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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