Chiguire
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:15 am

Can anybody give me a proper definition of ETOPS ?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:23 am

ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.

It allows twins to operate up to a certain number of flying minutes from a diversionary airport. The number of minutes is calculated with the flying speed on one engine.

The several classes comes in with the number of minutes. There is ETOPS 180, ETOPS 207 and ETOPS 240. (Is there a 120?)

So if an engine fails, the aircraft is tested and certified to keep going on one engine to a diversionary airport located within a certain number of minutes. This allows the route to go over desolate stretches of ocean or land and potentially saves time and fuel.

Hawaii is the most isolated place in the world in this respect btw  Big grin


Critics of ETOPS say it is a numbers game, and that eventually both engines will fail on some flight and there will be a big hole in the ocean. Proponents (including myself, not that I count much) say that if both engines fail the problem would have taken out all the engines on a triplet or quad anyway. Besides which engines almost never fail anyway, especially not in cruise.

Triplets and quads operating at these ranges from diversionary airports have to follow LROPS, Long Range Operational Performance Standards.


ETOPS is sometimes referred to as: Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2004-09-25 23:27:45]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:26 am

You'll find quite a number of deffinitions for ETOPS. All mean the same thing in essence. One other deffinition is Extended Twin-engine Over-water Operations.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 845
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:27 am

They offer a good definition-

http://www.airlinedispatch.com/_fps/etops.htm

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:29 am

Extended Twin-engine Over-water Operations.

Yes but since ETOPS regulations don't care whether you are over water or not, that's not really the correct definition.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Chiguire
Topic Author
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:29 am

UnitedTristar, thank u for that link !
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:39 am

ANYTIME Big grin

-m

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dl021
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:49 am

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
UnitedFirst
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:16 pm

RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:08 am

Starlionblue,

I think the original ETOPS used by TWA on its 767-200s was actually ETOPS120.

However, with the advances in engine technology, I think ETOPS180 is now the "baseline model", if you will.

Derek
 
captain777
Posts: 254
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:22 am

So why do they write this on the aircraft ? I've seen Kuwait Airways Aircrafts with ETOPS written on them . It might sound a bit of a stupid question but why don't they write V1-156 VR-213 on some planes. What I mean is why is this particular information so important and more important than lets say the airplanes zero fuel weight or any other neccassary infromation about the aircraft ?- ( I know I sound a bit Stupid  Smile )


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Captain777
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nonrvsmdmf
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:28 am

I know of one 757 that is 60 minutes etops restricted. Its
a biatch to flight plan.
I did not forget...I just misplaced the thought...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:37 am

I know of one 757 that is 60 minutes etops restricted

Considering that ETOPS begins to apply at 60min, that's not exactly something out of the ordinary  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:51 am

Captain777

The Reason you will find ETOPS written on the aircraft is to let personal know that the aircraft is ETOPS certified. Not all twin engine aircraft are going to be ETOPS. Example I recently saw a CO 737 that is ETOPS, but the CO 737 at the next gate was not ETOPS.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:43 am

The Reason you will find ETOPS written on the aircraft is to let personal know that the aircraft is ETOPS certified. Not all twin engine aircraft are going to be ETOPS. Example I recently saw a CO 737 that is ETOPS, but the CO 737 at the next gate was not ETOPS.

What is the procedure for getting an aircraft ETOPS certified? Obviously airlines are not going through their airplanes one by one and flying around on one engine to see how long until they crash. So exactly how do they do it? I would imagine they would do it all on paper based on individual component certifications and performance and then certify all aircraft within an airline that conform to the same standard (ie. same engines, same maintenance schedules, etc.). Is that correct?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
studentflyer
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:55 am

As far as I know about the B773ER, when they did the certification test, they had to fly trans-continental with one engine for around 330 minutes. That is 5 and a half hours with one engine!! Anyway, I thought they got up to 6 hours on single engine (correct me if I'm wrong).

Regards,
AK
 
A10WARTHOG
Posts: 200
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:48 am

I do not know the procedure to get a plane initially ETOPS. I know before a plane can fly ETOPS there are maintenance procedure that have to be done. I work for a company and we do contract mx for CO, there procedure requires two mechanics to do the mx check. I know a oil check is required, but what else is required I do not know. I have never had to do one before. I know that on a ETOPS aircraft the APU has to be started in flight every 28 days or so.
I know I did not answer your question, maybe someone else can.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:49 am

What is the procedure for getting an aircraft ETOPS certified? Obviously airlines are not going through their airplanes one by one and flying around on one engine to see how long until they crash. So exactly how do they do it? I would imagine they would do it all on paper based on individual component certifications and performance and then certify all aircraft within an airline that conform to the same standard (ie. same engines, same maintenance schedules, etc.). Is that correct?

There are indeed procedures. A combination of extra equipment and testing.

Maintenance on engines cannot be performed by the same crew or something like that. Extra fire suppressant foam to be carried. Etc...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
baw716
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RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:38 pm

There is also a 138 min ETOPS limitation which tends to apply to 767s flying transatlantic. While the 777 has been certified for 180 min ETOPS (the 777-300ER may have 240 min ETOPS), I don't believe (and anyone correct me if wrong), the 767-300ER is certified for only 138 min. The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS, this having to do with the power/weight/range capabilities of each aircraft. As you may remember, the 777 when it first came out had to go through increadibly difficult certification program to get the 180 min ETOPS (with the P&W engines). The newer generation engines, especially the GE90 and the new Trent engines are so powerful and reliable that the chances of them getting the 240 min ETOPS is very likely, especially tied to the 777 airframe.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
KLMyank
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Etops

Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:00 pm

KLM has a 747 co-co called E-tops.... Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
timz
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RE: Etops

Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:41 am

"I don't believe (and anyone correct me if wrong), the 767-300ER is certified for only 138 min. The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS..."

Maybe so, but don't forget 737s and 767s are (or have been) scheduled to Hawaii. It's been claimed the 767s can manage this on 138-minute ETOPS, but we assume that's wrong. Probably everyone agrees the 737s need 180.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:00 am

It's also worth mentioning that while a specific aircraft type may be ETOPS certified, this does not automatically make every aircraft of the type ETOPS capable. Every single aircraft that is flying ETOPS needs to maintain it's ETOPS certification or it will revert to being a non-ETOPS capable example that can still fly safely but not on ETOPS routes.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
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RE: Etops

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:03 am

I still prefer the other definition

Engines
Turn
Or
Passengers
Swim

hehe  Wink/being sarcastic
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
moose1226
Posts: 247
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RE: Etops

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:30 am

The narrow body aircraft flying the transatlantic (A319LR) and B737-700/800/BBJ have 120 min ETOPS, this having to do with the power/weight/range capabilities of each aircraft.

Don't forget the 757, which is used for Trans-Atlantic flights even more often than any of the above aircraft. CO is one of the airlines that uses the 757 across the pond.

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