fluorine
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Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:18 pm

Why is SQ using their B772 on regional routes such as SIN-KUL? It is not more than an hour and I don't see there will be many passengers on this route? Why don't they purchase some smaller and short range aircrafts for their regional routes?
 
DeltaWings
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:23 pm

Obveasly they have high pax on that route. Or else they would use their smallest plane, the A310.
The thing is they only have the 772ER. Why didnt they order the domestic 772 for those routes?

DeltaWings

[Edited 2004-09-26 16:25:30]
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parisien
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:30 pm

For CGK SIn they also use 773, 772 and A340. I suppose the load justifies the equipment, but A340 500 for this route ? I dont know if its permanent or just for some times. Or since it is such a short flight, rather than having it idle why not ?
 
tsentsan
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:49 pm

Parisien,

The A345 is used for SIN-CGK also for crew purposes. On the long haul flights, the Captains are usually the ones doing the takeoff and landing, so the SFOs do not get the chance to do the landings and stuff. I think they have to have a certain number in a period, so the SIN/CGK/SIN sectors are used for the FOs to maintain currency.

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Bicoastal
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:59 pm

Flourine...I see in your profile that you are fairly young and likely haven't traveled the world much. Yes, many, many people live in Asia and there is quite a demand for air travel between the many huge, thriving cities. Business is booming in Asia.
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N79969
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:00 am

I think more fundamentally SQ has gone with all-widebody fleet of airplanes and, for reasons of network value, needs to serve certain important cities short flying distances away such as Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur with mainline airplanes. Hence you have A340 and 777s on segments that could be flown with RJs, Cessna 182s...you get the idea.

They have sloughed off some secondary flying to Silk Air (A320 operator) I believe.

A while ago SQ sought bids for a plan smaller planes than the 772 namely the A330-200 and the 764 for the reasons you mention. They ended up ordering more 772 if I recall correctly.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:05 am

Obveasly they have high pax on that route. Or else they would use their smallest plane, the A310.
The thing is they only have the 772ER. Why didnt they order the domestic 772 for those routes?


Because a 772A can't do longhaul...?

Maximum utilisation of fleet is what makes profit. There isn't any sense in having a 772A doing shorthauls when a 772ER is sat doing nothing in the slack period between longhaul trips. If an airline has a route structure which means that an aircraft is sat parked for six or more hours between diagrams then it would be better to timetable some short trips into that six hours.

Commonality also comes into it. So instead of a 772A and a 772ER, two 772ERs makes more sense for an airline with a mixture of long and shorter range operations. Both aircraft are then capable of doing the vast bulk of the work and can be rotated for maximum utilisation.
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fluorine
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:56 am

It seems that SQ will not order 7E7 as SQ prefers larger aircrafts.
 
beachthing
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:22 am

Want to bet $5 they will be ordering 7e7?
 
texdravid
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:39 am

The Asian market favors widebodies.

Further, there IS a high demand for intra-asian medium to short haul routes.

Put those together, and it's clear why SQ has 777's on those routes.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:40 am

Or else they would use their smallest plane, the A310.

Back in the days when they still operated that aircraft, of course  Big grin





Because a 772A can't do longhaul...?

1) false statement
2) SQ doesn't even operate the 772A to begin with







....and for the purpose of adding to the the aforementioned posts: SQ's Trent884 powered 772ERs were ordered specifically with high-density/cargo regional routes in mind--- hence their permanently derated powerplants and lower MTOWs. Only the 9V-SV* series were intended for extended B-market routes.
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Airbus Lover
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:36 am

What do you expect them to use, the B772 is the smallest plane in their fleet.  Nuts

Furthermore, SIN-KUL does indeed have the traffic. On top of SQ's 6x daily B772 service, MH has 4x daily A333 and 1x daily B734 on that route. So we have a total of 11x daily between the two capitals. This is Asia dude.  Big grin Widebodies everywhere.
 
studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:26 am

Thank you for your point, Airbus Lover. SQ's smallest aircraft in their fleet is the B772. The A310 is no longer operational in their fleet, and is being transferred to another airlines (correct me if I'm wrong), and about 5 of them, if not less, are being stored in Changi Airport. Certainly, it's Asia, the continent with the highest number of inhabitants than anywhere else in the world!

I certainly have flown so many times with SQ, being a regular with them (with Star Gold status), I certainly enjoyed flying with them. Larger aircraft are more comfortable than smaller ones. And believe me, the SIN-CGK sector is often empty. This is because they have 8 or so scheduled flights per day!! I was in a flight once when there was only about 3 people per row of the aircraft, meaning that only about one-third of the aircraft are filled. Yet, they still fly with bigger aircraft!!

SQ is currently putting the 7E7 on the shelf, as they may consider the Airbus A350, or the A330Lite they call it, as a direct replacement for the A310, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to buy 7E7s. ANA, as a member of StarAlliance, is the launch customer for the 7E7s. What this could mean, is that because they're in the same alliance, they could be 'influenced' to buy aircrafts other airlines in the alliance uses. So I don't see why SQ won' buy the 7E7s.
The reason they bought more T7s is because if you recall back in 1995, they had a contract of obtaining 77 T7s, and currently, they have 55 in their fleet, meaning they have the flexibility of ordering 22 more T7s, which now includes the 773ER, though the powerplant is a bit of a problem. SQ uses P&W engines, whereas the 773ER uses the GE90-115B engine. But they are still obtaining them anyway, and we should see the first 773ER in Singapore colours in 2006  Big grin


Regards,
AK

[Edited 2004-09-27 03:40:28]
 
tsentsan
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:35 am

SQ uses PW engines

Slight correction, SQ uses RR Trent engines exclusively (at least for now) for their current 777-200 and 300s.
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studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:42 am

Thanks Tsentsan, I was confused with the 744s SQ operates. You are right, the T7 SQ uses RR Trent engines, both the 884s and the 892s. Thanks for correcting me!

Regards,
AK
 
777ER
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:45 am

Obveasly they have high pax on that route. Or else they would use their smallest plane, the A310.
The A310 use to be the domestic aircraft but all their A310s have been retired and B772ERs now operate domestic

It seems that SQ will not order 7E7 as SQ prefers larger aircrafts. SQ have put off their decision for the B7E7.

1x daily B734 on that route Since when was the B734 a wide body? Insane
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studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:54 am

777ER,

I think what Airbus Lover meant with the B734, is not relevant to this thread. It is simply to prove his point, that Asia has a big market, and that even MH uses 4x A333 and 1xB734 a day. This is to prove his point, and he does not mean that the B734 is a widebody aircraft. I hope you could understand the circumstances.

Thanks,
AK
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:19 pm

First of all, there are no domestic routes in Singapore. Everything is international.

The reason for 772 being the smallest aircraft is that, SQ didn't want the A310, as it would increase the numbers of aircraft types in its fleet.

The 7E7 delay has been covered in previous discussions, but SQ wants to wait out and see what comes about with the low-cost wave in Asia.
Many routes less than 4 hours may become low-cost territory and hence widebodies may becomes obsolete in this sector. SQ doesn't want to invest in an aircraft that maybe too big for its original intent 4 years down the road.
 
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:36 pm

StudentFlyer

I know, I was only being sarcastic
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Ryanair!!!
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:49 pm

777ER,

The A310 use to be the domestic aircraft but all their A310s have been retired ...

Err... Singapore is only +/-470kmsq. Domestic routes with the A310s? This is something new to me... Hehehehe...  Big grin
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Airbus Lover
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:35 pm

Yeah 777ER was thinking of Changi - Paya Lebar  Wink/being sarcastic Or were you thinking of using smaller planes to do Changi - Seletar, don't think you can use widebodies on this one!  Nuts

Trying to be sacarstic eh? Get it right yourself first. You did not even read my post properlly. I was explaining the traffic situation on SIN-KUL.
 
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:08 pm

Airbus Lover

Trying to be sacarstic eh? Get it right yourself first. You did not even read my post properlly. I was explaining the traffic situation on SIN-KUL.

Furthermore, SIN-KUL does indeed have the traffic. On top of SQ's 6x daily B772 service, MH has 4x daily A333 and 1x daily B734 on that route. So we have a total of 11x daily between the two capitals. This is Asia dude. Widebodies everywhere.

Well you said 6x daily SQ B772ERs, 4x daily MH A333 and 1x daily MH B734......This is Asia dude. Widebodies everywhere. So I read your post loud and clearly, thank you
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Lufthansa
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:10 pm

Fluorine

You've got to remember wonderful little island known as Singapore, is home to 4.2 million ppl. Now next door Malaysia has about 23 million ppl, with about 1.5 directly in the capital. within a short distance there are millions more.

So you are talking about cities bigger than the likes of Denver, Salt Lake, Seattle, and even chicago if you just count the city limits (and not the metro area because it extends across 3 states)

The thing is, singaporeans and malaysians are well educated and enjoy high standards of living. And as was said earlier, Business, is indeed booming. So yes... you can fill 5 777s a day. Remember the issue in Asia is slot restrictions. If that wasn't a problem I'm sure you'd see Airbus A320s or 737-800s doing on shuttles with half hr departures. You know....26 flights a day or something, but they just can't afford to waste those slots when they need to send jets to Shanghai, Tokyo and Frankfurt.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:29 pm

The only airports in Asia that are slot restricted is NRT, HND, & ITM.
The rest depends on bi-laterals amongst countries.

If the number of frequencies is limited between countries then it makes sense to operate the largest feasible aircraft. If there was no restriction to aircraft size, there could be smaller aircraft operated on short-range flights.

For most of the world, each country nominates a carrier to serve between the countries/cities. For example, why would Malaysia allow Air Asia onto the lucrative KUL-SIN when its own carrier Malaysia Airlines would suffer badly because of competition.

When governments let loose low-cost carriers on int'l routes, expect these carriers to introduce A320/737-class aircraft on most flights less than 5 hours.
 
FlyerFly
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:02 pm

I actually wish SQ and MH could use a bigger aircraft to serve the SIN-KUL route, as it is often very difficult to get a seat on this route ... believe it or not !

And because of the extremely lucrative nature of this route, it is unlikely that either of the governments will open up this route to LCC anytime in the future.

 
HB-IWC
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:31 pm

Here in Jakarta we get up to 8 daily SQ flights operated by a mix of B772, B773, A345 with the odd B744 thrown in whem things really get busy. Even if SQ were to have smaller airframes, I still wouldn't see it happening to CGK as load factors are mostly very high, so the route, just like many others in the region warrants the use of wide body equipment.

 
flyingKangaroo
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:35 pm

I do believe SQ operates the 7772A series. A quick visit to the fleet section on their website states they have 31 777-200, and 15 777-200ER.

flyingKangaroo
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studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:36 pm

Just adding to HB-IWC's comment, during high season, even with around 8 daily services between SIN-CGK, we often have to book in a couple of weeks early due to the load factor. You have to remember that in South East Asia, there are more than 300million inhabitants, so using widebodies between cities are justifiable. I don't see why when the A380 enters service, SQ would probably also use it to fly SIN-KUL or SIN-CGK. Maybe the latter's the higher chance though.

Regards,
AK
 
studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:40 pm

Also to FlyingKangaroo and ConcordeBoy, SQ does operate B772As. They are the ones with the registration 9V-SQ* and 9V-SV*. The B772ERs have registration 9V-SR* and the B773s have the registration 9V-SY*. Having flown with SQ regularly, I certainly do look for fleet updates in them  Big grin

Regards,
AK
 
hoons90
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:09 pm

The SQ and SR series 777s are not really 777-200As. They are actually 777-200ERs with a lower MTOW, and different engine variants, IIRC.
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DeltaWings
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:46 pm

Also to FlyingKangaroo and ConcordeBoy, SQ does operate B772As. They are the ones with the registration 9V-SQ* and 9V-SV*. The B772ERs have registration 9V-SR* and the B773s have the registration 9V-SY*. Having flown with SQ regularly, I certainly do look for fleet updates in them

Since when. JP Airline Fleets says they only have the 772ER




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studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:51 pm

Since when. JP Airline Fleets says they only have the 772ER

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/app/saa;JSESSIONID_WLCS_PORTAL=BX2NXcJlMmdR2ORfToQLzd5tUoLWfR5HEribAMFJD3QK2OmlcJIv!-907333819!-1407778314!7501!7502?hidHeaderAction=onHeaderMenuClick&hidTopicArea=FleetInformation¤tSite=global

Maybe we should consider the Airline's website first prior to believing in Airfleets.net...... They certainly may make mistakes.

Regards,
AK
 
hoons90
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:53 pm

They are the ones with the registration 9V-SQ* and 9V-SV*. The B772ERs have registration 9V-SR* and the B773s have the registration 9V-SY*.

Correction:

9V-SQ*: 3-Class 777-200ER Used for INTRA-ASIA and AUSTRALIA flights.
9V-SR*: 2-Class 777-200ER Used for INTRA-ASIA and AUSTRALIA flights.
9V-SV*: 2-Class 777-200ER Used for LONG HAUL, and occasionally some INTRA-ASIA flights.

Maybe we should consider the Airline's website first prior to believing in Airfleets.net...... They certainly may make mistakes.

Actually, it may be listed on the SQ site like that, to classify which 772s are being used for long haul and which for regional flights.

Also, some of the information on an airline's site can be wrong. For example, Kuwait Airways' site says the 777-200ER range is less than 10000kms.

[Edited 2004-09-27 14:04:15]
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by188b
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:04 pm

well malaysia is v close to singapore and MH operate 737 aircraft, do SQ not operate any routes that need a smaller aircraft? im glad asia is booming but is it true that SQ require a large aircraft for every route? For example, i was in Penang in march and the queue at the boarding gate for the SQ flight to SIN had only 100-150 pax waiting, perhaps the cargo on the flight made it worthwhile.

Also with all the LCC's springing up in asia perhaps SQ may purchase some narrowbodies. Just my two cents
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studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:13 pm

Hoons90,

I've seen 9V-SRD in YVR before, I don't know whether they do it occasionally or the 9V-SR*s get used for long haul. But you are definitely correct. My apologies to you and DeltaWings. I've just checked with jetphotos.net census that all B772s in SQ's fleet are ERs. Though i wonder why they never actually mention the ER bit on the 31 they currently operate. My guess would be because they use Trent 884s instead of the 892s 9V-SV* uses.

Thank you so much for correcting me  Smile

Regards,
AK
 
chinaeastern
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:16 pm

well, if SQ think a particular route is not able to sustain a large aircraft, they can give it to MI, other wise suspend it. all wide body fleet is just great. i was suprised how many empty seats there are on SIN-PVG route yet SQ stilled doubles the capacity on the route within a 2 year periode of time.
 
studentflyer
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:20 pm

By188b,

SQ already owns a percentage of shares in Tiger Airways, Singapore's LCC - a direct competitor with JetStar Asia. If SQ justifies the route, e.g. the Penang route, then they'll use widebodies. If the route is not justified, it will use its subsidiary airline - SilkAir.

There's my $0.02

Regards,
AK
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Is SQ Using Their B772 On Regional Routes?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:04 am

I do believe SQ operates the 7772A series. A quick visit to the fleet section on their website states they have 31 777-200, and 15 777-200ER.

Also to FlyingKangaroo and ConcordeBoy, SQ does operate B772As.


...only because they differentiate between aircraft with Trent892s and S.B.s by labeling them "ER"

ALL of their 772s are actually ExtendedRange models however.





The SQ and SR series 777s are not really 777-200As. They are actually 777-200ERs with a lower MTOW, and different engine variants, IIRC.

Correct  Smile
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