Qb001
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AC Orders New RJs

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:17 pm

Strange news on Radio-Canada (http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/Economie/nouvelles/200409/27/001-AIRCANADA.shtml). AC is buying some new RJs.

15 CRJ-700 and 30 CRJ-200. 15 orders can be cancelled without any penalty for AC.

The news doesn't say where that deal stands vis-à-vis the last CRJs order.

Stay tuned.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:25 pm

Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
martinairyyz
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 pm

This contract has a potential value of approximately $2.45 billion US.

Goodbye Air Canada!!

If this deal goes through, ctheir chance of bankruptcy will be near 100%  Laugh out loud , I'll laugh my butt off if it causes them to die. This shows how stupid management can be, just my opinion though!  Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
BigD
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:56 pm

Does anyone have any idea what routes some of these jets will be used on? I'm especially keen to know what routes the 705's would be used on. The seat pitch in these planes is excellent for economy class.

BigD
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:44 am

There is no indication of the 705 routes, but the seat pitch - and the fact these are destined to be two-class cabins with an in-seat video system - is a pretty good indication that they might see service on so-called longer thin routes, like an Ottawa-Winnipeg or London (ON) - Calgary. A good bet also are the longer intra-West routes where AC is putting CRJ-100/200s for the winter. Much longer than that seems unlikely as AC has the Embraers in the fleet plan for the mainline, and those are probably better plans for any flying over three hours.
 
flyyul
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:05 am

MartinairYYZ.

Thank you for your analysis. Perhaps you should take over Air Canada and teach them how its done..  Insane
 
accargo
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:40 am

This is all part of the original announcent from Dec. 2003. It is all part of the business plan that was agreed to by the creditor's, nothing new.

CA
 
cylw
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:34 am

Does anyone know if new CRJ200s are equipped with leading edge devices and a lower cabin floor for better visibility out the windows like the CRJ700s??

 
Greg
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:16 am

50 seat regionals are a dying breed....BBD has already said that the modifications to the 700/900 will not be retroffited in the CRJ200 series.....too expensive (you would have thought they would make it cheaper, right?).
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:36 am

50 seat regionals are a dying breed....

The production lines at Bombardier and Embraer would suggest otherwise.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Greg
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:59 am

No, not really...their CASM is ridiculously high. The love affair with the 50-seat jet is past maturity and will die relatively quickly. Otherwise, there replacements would have already been in development instead of 70 seaters and above (and note that the 70 seaters are not moving at the brisk pace most analyst and manufactures initially thought).

I'm glad BBD made the sale...if for the only reason it will strengthen their ability to get the C-Series launched.
 
slawko
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:55 am

No one seems to have picked up that this is a Jazz order...which makes it far more important then any Air Canada order, as it means they have reached an agreement with ACPA allowing Jazz to expand it's jet operation, and operate larger 70+ seat jets which untill now it has not been able to do...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:47 am

Slawko, as ACCargo says above, this is a previous order made "public" again ... and is no more nor less, than allowed in the Teplitski jet arbitration bewteen Air Canada, and Air Canada Jazz.

The CRJ 200s are allowed into Jazz, on a one-for-one, as the EMBs are delivered to Air Canada. The CRJ705s will replace the BAe142s, again, on a one-for-one basis.

I am a little bewildered why this is made to appear as "news".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:31 am

I am a little bewildered why this is made to appear as "news".

I agree. This order was announced months ago. It is not news.

No, not really...their CASM is ridiculously high. The love affair with the 50-seat jet is past maturity and will die relatively quickly.

Yes, the CASM is high, yet the order books remain robust.

note that the 70 seaters are not moving at the brisk pace most analyst and manufactures initially thought

True. One signif factor thought is that the 70-seat threshold bumps up against alot of scope clauses.

The CRJ 200s are allowed into Jazz, on a one-for-one, as the EMBs are delivered to Air Canada.

Are you saying that the new CJR-200 will be operated by AC? As opposed to Jazz?

The CRJ705s will replace the BAe142s, again, on a one-for-one basis.


Hopefully this means the 146 will remain with Jazz until 2005.







I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:14 am

The 146 will remain until the CRJ 705s are delivered, and will replace them on a one-for-one basis, and will be operated by Jazz.

Jazz, as you know, presently operates 50 seat CRJs. They will be allowed more CRJ200s, as long as Air Canada mainline gets the EMB 175s and 190s. The way the Teplitski arbitration reads, is that the 50 seat RJs can be added to the Jazz fleet, only at (roughly) the same time and rate as the arrival of the EMBs at Air Canada mainline.

But also, as you know, Air Canada is notorious for backing out of signed employee contracts. It is my opinion, (and only my opinion), the EMBs will never arrive at either Jazz or Air Canada. Once the increase in CRJs at Jazz occurs, Air Canada will "suddenly" decide against the EMBs.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
PacificWestern
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:49 am

I look forward to a 3 hour flight on a CRJ-200 to Toronto. NOT!!!!!!
 
CRJ 900
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:13 am

Actually as I understand it, 146s will be out of our fleet by DEC, Jan at the latest, first 705s are not due till mid/late spring.
 
martinairyyz
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:19 am

Thank you for your analysis. Perhaps you should take over Air Canada and teach them how its done..

Why not! Lower frequency on flights not so in-demand (only keep high-load times) and put the others jets on new routes! Did I have to be such a genius? It may not be perfect but it'll be better than what they have now, FLYYUL  Insane

 Laugh out loud
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
NW7E7
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:21 am

If AC goes bye-bye there will be a huge void to fill in the Canadian market. Who would possibly fill it?

NW7E7
 
CRJ 900
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:05 am

Market watchers predict the AC will come out bigger and stronger than ever. VEry good for my division of the company (Jazz)....definitely alot different than what the teenage know it alls have to say. Think I'll go with the analysts.
 
Allee
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:06 am

This link http://www.aircanada.ca/about-us/investor/pdf/ac_sr.pdf goes over AC's fleet strategies.
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:17 am


But also, as you know, Air Canada is notorious for backing out of signed employee contracts. It is my opinion, (and only my opinion), the EMBs will never arrive at either Jazz or Air Canada. Once the increase in CRJs at Jazz occurs, Air Canada will "suddenly" decide against the EMBs.



That's ridiculous. Typical ACPA logic. And I'm not a pilot. AC has just cut down the CRJ order and management is in love with the EMB-190 and sees it as the ideal aircraft for AC to cut capacity on some routes and build up others. But to you, it's all a malevolant trick on ACPA pilots. Sad, really.



 
Carpethead
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:13 pm

Since Canada isn't the fast growing market or the largest, isn't 30 CRJ200s plus 15 CRJ700s too much. What are they replacing the 737-200s, or returning some of the 320s or 319s. Are they still getting the Embraer 190? When? Are some Dash 8s slated for retirement.
 
Samurai 777
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:47 pm

What new domestic and transborder routes will crop up using the CRJ-100/200 and the new CRJ-705s? And which routes may see AC use the EMB-190?

Already, YEG-YWG, YYC-YWG are or will be seeing the CRJ for sure. YWG-YOW and YXU-YYC are possibilities.
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:03 pm

Since Canada isn't the fast growing market or the largest, isn't 30 CRJ200s plus 15 CRJ700s too much. What are they replacing the 737-200s, or returning some of the 320s or 319s. Are they still getting the Embraer 190? When? Are some Dash 8s slated for retirement.

Some Dash 8-100s are scheduled for retirement. The last three Jazz BAe146s are leaving. Some A320 will be leaving. And all 737-200s are gone. Some of the CRJ200s will replace Dash 8s and 146s, and some will build frequency or launch new domestic or transborder services. The CRJ705 and EMB-175s will replace some CRJ0200s now flown on some very long sectors (2-3 hours). The EMN 190s will do the same, or replace A320s, and they will help launch some new services, particularly transborder routes where an A319 is too large.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:16 pm

No matter how you slice it Sebring, this order will add capacity to the domestic/US market. Looks like AC is still playing its old market share games.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
WJA73G
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:56 pm

And who is going to pay for these???

WJA73G
 
boac707
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RE: AC Orders New RJs

Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:24 am

One thing we need to remember is that AC wanted to split off some of its operations and sell them for profit. So why not order a bunch of new aircraft to make it more marketable, split off Jazz and sell it or a large stake in it, and turn a profit?

This was on the table along with Cargo, and Tech Ops. You never know what craziness lurks in the hearts of blue suits.
smokey classics to the end of time

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