wedgetail737
Posts: 3625
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:55 am

Hi there! I'm sure this topic has been covered before, but I would like to ask again. Why are there no Russian airplanes flying into the U.S., besides the occasional Mavial Magadan Airlines Tu-154M into ANC? Is it the perceived notion that Russian airplanes are not safe? Are they inferior to U.S. airworthiness laws? Do they not meet FAA noise restrictions?

I used to see a lot of Russian planes flying into the U.S. IL-62's, IL-96's and Tu-154's into the west coast. IL-62's, IL-86's and IL-96's into the East Coast and Florida. What happened?
 
cactushp
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 3:36 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:13 am

I think that after the Cold War, the general population (or all the population) would not ride on those jets just because they are a Russian product. And I think that trend continues today.


CactusHP
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:19 am

The general population wouldnt have the foggiest idea that they were Russian-made.


Basically, the airlines here were traditionally Boeing/McDD... Airbus muscled in with quality products and good deals. Embraer/Bombardier moved in by catering to a niche that the big2 avoided.

No way in hell Soviet material would've been welcomed here from DeReg to the early 90s... and the Russian manufaturers more than likely lack the financing/scale/market-segment to do any of this in this current time.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dantiger
Posts: 80
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:37 am

The Russian aircraft have never had a good safety record or in flight service. Since the fall of Communism it has actually gotten worse. If they fly Airbus or Boeing aircraft that is only a slight improvement. Russia is a disaster right now. Their own government reports that one out of three Russian men has a drinking problem. One out of 6 women the same. These will be the ground and flight crews you will put your life in their hands. The poor Russian Army is practically starving. The streets of Moscow are as dangerous as South Central Los Angeles. Need I say more?
 
cactushp
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 3:36 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:46 am

"The general population wouldnt have the foggiest idea that they were Russian-made."
Well, if you put it that way, but this is a pretty obvius answer, when the F/A comes over the mike and says "there are x amount of emergency exits on this
Tupolev-154 aircraft..." I think everyone would know that it's Russian. I mean come on, adults would of heard of Boeing and M/D before, right?


CactusHP
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
StearmanNut
Posts: 344
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:09 am

Airworthiness certificates are hard to come by on aircraft that are not maintained and built to US standards. Also, any aircraft that enters US airpace has to conform to universal standards. That is the main reason you do not see many Russian aircraft in regular commercial air service in the northern western hemisphere.
If wishes were horses, a Tail Dragger I would fly...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:31 am

Well, if you put it that way, but this is a pretty obvius answer, when the F/A comes over the mike and says "there are x amount of emergency exits on this Tupolev-154 aircraft..."


...apparently, you haven't flown enough to hear the ubiquitous wannabe-knowitall tell his kid "isn't this a big 747 son?!" right after the FA states that it's an A330  Insane  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:47 am

errrr, because they suck!
I wouldn't get on one of those even if you upgraded me to the highest levels of service for free. I would never have booked a flight on a Russian plane to begin with but, suppose there was an interruption and they rebooked me on a different airline, I would not get on that flight.
My opinion, of course.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
L-188
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:07 am

Most russian A/C where/are not US certified.

There was a scam up here where a number of guys brought AN-2's up to Alaska and tried to sell them to some of the villages as "supply planes". The theory is that they would then be public aircraft and no subject to FAA regulations.

I don't know of any vilages that took them up.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
afay1
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:14 pm

Sigh, I feel like I'm overhearing a convention of the village idiots. Russian, well, Soviet, now Russian & Ukrainian aircraft have as good a design safety record as any western design. I lived as an American in Moscow for the past two years and amassed many thousands of kilometers on SU, D9, and S7 with nary an incident. Nobody tried to kill me in the streets, which I am terrified of happening in my new abode of Washington, which vies with Johannesburg as the murder capital of the world. I could walk downtown at any hours of the night with relative certainty of my safety. I can't say the same for DC. My own home state of N.H. has a terrible problem with idiot hunters shooting kids off of swingsets because they look like deer. The cops won't do anything because they are the same people hunting. They reccomend you don't walk around on your own land and wear an orange vest (your dog too). You can bandy about statistics about drinking all you want, but while Russia does have a serious problem, how does that relate to its pilots? The reason why there aren't many Russian passenger planes flying into the US us because they are not fuel efficient or often very comfortable. It has nothing to do with their safety. BTW there are many IL-76s, AN-124s, AN-12s, and the AN-225 that fly heavylift items into the US because we have no competing designs. Did you also know that the US is dependent on Russian shipping and aircraft to move our own military equipment as we haven't built a proper commercial ship in the US in 50 years. Anyway, no one has Russian aircraft for the fuel and comfort reasons, not to mention the negative PR for such an aircraft. If enthusiasts have no idea what they are talking about, the general public doesn't either. Not to mention where are you going to get a Kuznetsov engine when your Tu-134 loses one in Topeka?
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:24 pm

Dont forget Tarom and Aeroflot into ORD! I saw my first 62's at ORD back on a Friday in the Summer of 92.
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2104
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:33 pm

"BTW there are many IL-76s, AN-124s, AN-12s, and the AN-225 that fly heavylift items into the US because we have no competing designs."

Our C-5 is nearly identical to the An-124 in size and performance. But unlike Russia, the C-5 is purely Air Force, whereas the Antonov is Aeroflot and is shared by the military and civilian uses. The An-225 is an anomaly, a one off (so far) whose size is a result of the need to carry the Buran or its external tank.

I don't disagree on your other points, but we do have competing designs, though not in civilian dress.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:40 pm

Let me fly on an IL62, IL86, IL96, TU154, TU204/214, TU134 or Yak42 anyday  Wink/being sarcastic I'd take it provided you give me seats up front Big grin
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2563
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:49 pm

Almost all Russian designs do not conform to Western noise standards. The only ones are Il-96 & Tu-154M. The former have very few in numbers on the market. The latter is an old design, fuel inefficient, and need too many crew to operate. Support would be difficult too far away from home.
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:14 pm

I invite anyone to visit a country like Peru, or any other underdeveloped nation. The skies are filled with old Russian planes, that can be found for very cheap and scrapped for parts. In fact, there are a few pics in the a.net archive of the airport at LIM with old Russian planes sitting, abandoned, in shame. There have been several accidents with Russian planes in Peru, and I know that I have heard similar tales in other places, like Africa. For some strange reason, you don't hear nearly as much about 25+ year old Boeing aircraft crashing into the jungle.
I think it's infantile to call someone who disagrees with another person's opinion part of the "village idiots".
I stand by my initial comment that they "suck" compared to B or A.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:21 pm

Isn't there something that all Soviet-bloc/Russian a/c registered in the US have to be registered under the experimental category...I recall being around a US registered An-2 (N87AN IIRC, in Lithuanian Airlines colors) at a local airshow a few years back and "Experimental" was clearly printed on it...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
afay1
Posts: 1206
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:32 pm

I fail to see how poor maintenance standards damns an entire class of aircraft. I seem to remember SR-111's passengers dying for their PTVs, something that could happen again on an MD-11 without proper maintenance. Just because Alaska Airlines didn't maintain their MD-80's, does that mean the aircraft is inherently unsafe? How is it Tupolev's fault if Peru doesn't maintain its aircraft in a humid, hot environment? We don't hear about 25+ year old Boeings crashing, because most that are crashing are poorly maintained newer aircraft in Africa (737+727), or Asia (747-200). I seem to recall a spate of Bac-111 crashes and Caravelle crashes in Africa as well due to poor maintenance, not an inherent problem with their design. The C5 is a wonderful aircraft not available for civilian use because it can't compete price wise. Aeroflot does not own any heavy-lift aircraft anymore BTW, nor does it fly to Chicago anymore. In 50 years I can't recall any incident of a Russian passenger aircraft crashing inside the US. Poor maintenance inside the USSR and emergent Russia sure led to a lot of them, but again, it wasn't the design of the A/C. The Tu-154M doesn't have afew numbers on the market as well, it has HUNDREDS, just not for sale inside the US as they are not certified. Doesn't mean it is unsafe and can't be foreign registered. There just isn't a market for it. I'd be a lot more frightened to ride in a Bell Osprey than a Tu-154. How many Osprey's have crashed in relation to the number produced? I honestly can't believe aviation enthusiasts have such opinions. Flying is fun, why the pitchforks and torches?
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:43 pm

Why buy an outdated POS when you can buy a Boeing?
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:51 pm

Afay1:
Just to clarify something, I have never spoken of any DESIGN flaws. I just reread all the posts here, and I don't see anything about designs being flawed. I did read about how unreliable they seem to be, about how poor their supply network for parts is, about how they get peddled to poor countries/operators for peanuts, and about how they continue to have accidents at rates higher than "western" aircraft (and no, I have no specific statistics, go find them yourself). Someone said earlier that just the idea that they are "Russian" would spook many a traveler.
Today, most/all Russian planes must have some airworthiness issue or else they would fly to this country. I ask one question; why does Aeroflot fly western equipment internationally? I believe they own Airbus and Boeing planes (again, not certain of which, exactly) and use them for their international flights.
Read between the lines, Russian aviation isn't what it once was. I think all the posters agree with that. No one hates Russia, its people, its history, etc. Personally, I don't like Russian planes because they are less reliable than Boeing and Airbus (in no particular order, no A v B arguments, please). Oh, by the way, I have never flown commercially in an Osprey, an airplane that was (I believe) built specifically for a branch of the US armed forces. I would also never fly on a Caravelle, no longer in service. And I would stay clear of a BAC-111. I am not sure how that helped your argument.
Once again, people get so upset because someone disagrees with their opinion. That is childish. I don't fly JetBlue but I respect those who like it. I fly AA but respect those who prefer NW or DL or UA. I also favor B over A, but have flown AA's A300s to LIM several times.
I still don't like Russian planes, no matter what you say.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
afay1
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:23 pm

Thats fine, people can agree to disagree certainly. Aeroflot does indeed fly many domestic aircraft to foreign destinations both in the CIS and outside. The IL96 flies to Japan, Italy, Britain, and charter destinations along with the IL-86 (of which only one has ever crashed). All of those countries have strict oversight. It is simply more economical to fly western equipment, simple as that. Russian A/C do not have the range for economical US operations. They are not "banned," they just haven't been certified for a US operator to fly domestically, doesn't mean they can't be. The TU-154M has no airworthiness directives more dire than any other comparable design that I know of? Unreliability is tied to the idea of design is it not? Since no aircraft has a perfect design, problems happen. Look at the US space shuttle. While the Tu-154 could never hope to live up to modern Airbus and Boeing dispatch reliability, it does pretty well considering it lands on unprepared strips at -40c ground temperatures regularly. I don't see how it could be fundamentally unsafe if it is the backbone of Aeroflot's fleet and one hasn't crashed due to maintenance in a long time. They do have higher accident rates specifically because they are used in underdeveloped countries sometimes without proper maintenance. The ones that fly into this country (where did you get the idea that they are banned) are perfectly safe. Perhaps more safe than a Boeing 747-100 with an empty center fuel tank or an A300 with an uncommanded rudder deflection (or that fell on its tail and was put into service anyway).
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:31 pm

If passenger acceptance is the main issue, why do we not see more Russian planes in the freight market? Russian high-wing military type cargo planes have a major presence in the outsizefreight market. But you don't see Fed-Ex flying T-204's for example.

I would think the main issue is the availability of parts, and the unfamiliarity of western pilots and mechanics with Russian aircraft. If this were not the case the low price of the T-204, at least, would be attractive to western freight carriers. Getting JAA or FAA certification on the T-204 would not be that difficult, or so I have heard. The noise issue is real but the TU-204 and a few other new designs are stage-3 compliant.

One other problem is that many western businesspeople just don't like dealing with Russian companies. For some this is because of prejudice or cultural differences. But for others, it is because of bitter experience. The Soviet years did not prepare most Russians to deal with customers who are spending their own money rather than the government's money. Until recently, very few Russian companies have had the kind of honest, transparent and responsive customer service that commercial customers expect.
 
iakobos
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:10 pm

Fly2Lim,

Your idea is false and if you had done some thinking you would not post in the same way or not at all.

Russian/Ukrainian (civilian) planes and helicopters are a lot tougher than anything in the West.
They do on a daily basis what a Boeing or Airbus (etc) driver would not even consider doing once in the aircraft's lifetime.

For sure they do not have the sophistication, comfort, gadgetry, fuel efficiency of Western planes, but when it comes to having a workhorse that flies, nothing can compare.
Look at what the UN is using for their daily operations in third world countries and in extreme conditions.

In parallel, Russian/Ukr aircraft require a much less sophisticated and intensive maintenance. They are designed to comply with much stricter requirements than their Western counterparts, except in terms of economics and environmental standards.

 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:24 pm

Afay1,
Why are you mentioning the Space Shuttle in your argument about Russian vs. "Western" aircraft? You loose this argument on that basis alone, if you cannot prove your point without something as far out as that you don't have a point. You CANNOT compare a commercial airliner to the Space Shuttle and I'm not even going to go into why, this is something that you should know. You say that no aircraft has the perfect design. No, you are very wrong, any aircraft that Boeing or Airbus still makes is the perfect design. They fly everyday all around the world even in the same countries where the Russian aircraft are and they do not have anything close to the safety record that the Russian aircraft has. Like mentioned above if the aircraft was safe we would see an airline flying it. If nothing else we would see a cargo company flying it. It is no secret that Russian aircraft can be bought dirt cheap so my question is why wouldn't they buy it if it is just as safe as a "Western" plane? You can make up all the excuses that you want and try to compare Russian aircraft to all of these off the wall old aircraft to try to make your point sound better but what it comes down to is no one wants a Russian aircraft and no one wants to fly on one. They are not safe, if any "Western" aircraft had a record like they do they would be shut down. You can see my post backed up by fact buy just looking at any airport in the civilized world, you will not even find 1% Russian aircraft..

Good Day :::Slams The Door:::
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Tolosy
Posts: 341
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:43 pm

Fly2Lim

I don't understand why you don't fly JetBlue... I guess it is because they only fly Airbus.

I respect your opinion. However I have to admit that I don't understand why some people do not fly Airbus. They have the highest safety records (the same as Boeing).

I feel safer on a JetBlue Airbus than NW DC-9.

That is my opinion.
 
Biggles20
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:11 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:06 pm

Hello,

lakobos is right. As I understand Russian aircraft are generally designed to be very rugged and robust, as they have to perform to different criterion than Western-designed aircraft. Most Russian aircraft I believe were designed for good short-field performance, often flying from isolated and unprepared/unsupported airfields, often in terrible weather conditions. They were designed to operate with as little upkeep & maintenance as possible - to get the job done simply with less regard for comfort and service, etc.

Biggles
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:25 pm

I've flown Russian/Soviet/Ukrainian aircraft many times and have no problem with them. The crews and their mentality, of course, can be another story, so can maintenance, so it largely depends on what airline they fly for.

I would feel perfectly safe on an Aeroflot Tu-134 for example, or a Bulgarian Air Charter 154M. A random small carrier from the Krasnoyarsk krai would feel a lot less safer, of course, but in general, if these planes are flown by sober crews and have been in thorough and proper maintenance before, I would feel just as safe as in an A or B, MD or E.

I figure it's just the common perception that any equipment produced in Russia sucks (which sometimes is true, indeed - for example, I would not buy a Lada [though I have to give it to you, if you live in a cold region, there's nothing that beats the heating system of a Lada]).

The main problem why there are not much Russian aircraft left visiting the US is that there are very few of them built since the early 1990's. The older ones are getting old and retired, and gradually replaced by Western equipment.

Hopefully projects like the RRJ are going to turn that around again.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 540
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:19 am

...and very few Yugos either.
 
IL76TD
Posts: 280
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:58 am

In terms of ruggedness, there is nothing comparable to russian cargo aircraft. We fly IL76-TD's. These things are tanks, there is NO western equivalent to these planes. Find triple skinned wings that AK-47 bullets bounce off of one a western aircraft.

Oh and the capability to land on dirt runways helps too.
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:45 am

UAL747DEN,
That poor door did not do anything to you boy...

If your world starts and stops at North America, you are absolutely right.
Anything else and you are wrong.
Spending a few minutes searching for commercial and cargo airlines worldwide flying Russian/Ukrainian planes and helicopters would certainly enlighten you.
Check AN-24, -26, -28, -30, -70, -72, -124, IL-76TD, -86, Mil-8, Tu-134, -154, -204, Yak-40, -42, Be-200.

As said before, certification and noise regulations are the major technical reasons why North American and many European airlines do not fly them.
Give it another 10 years and remember this post !

 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:30 am

To all Russia haters:

Saying that you wouldn't fly an airplane just because it's Russian is stupid. Just like saying you wouldn't buy a Mercedes because they're not made in the U.S. (depends on the model though  Big grin )
And Boeing uses a lot of non u.s. parts in their planes.

C'mon guys, we know they've been flying around for years, and we know they're like flying tanks; it's the airline's MAINTENANCE that matters. If HP or any other airline with a flawless safety record had Russian planes, they'd still have that record.

So, quit the cold war paranoia and be more open minded.

[Edited 2004-09-28 21:32:59]
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:33 am

It is obvious that some people have a hard time reading simple words. Some of you read well, too well, and read too much into a statement.

Afay1
The ones that fly into this country (where did you get the idea that they are banned) are perfectly safe

I never used the word "banned"

Tolosy
I don't understand why you don't fly JetBlue... I guess it is because they only fly Airbus.

Again, you didn't read my entire post. I said that I don't fly JetBlue. That does not mean "hate" or "avoid" or "JetBlue sucks" or anything like that. I don't fly JetBlue because they don't FLY2LIM. As the father of two young kids, I would love JB. Unfortunately, they don't fly to either MIA or DFW, from where I can connect to LIM. So, I fly exclusively on AA because I accumulate miles, and get to fly for free to many destinations with my ff miles.
If you had read carefully you would have seen a reference to my last flight, which happened to be on a A300-600 LIM-MIA on August 17. I don't love the A300 but it's only because the ones for AA are in bad shape.

lakobos
Your idea is false and if you had done some thinking you would not post in the same way or not at all.

What idea of mine is "false", and who made you the a.net moderator and judge and jury? All I have given is my OPINION. My opinion is just that, my own opinion. I haven't given anyone any idea. As far as thinking, I think the same could be said of you. Think before you speak. I have thought about Russian planes since Peru had a coup-d'etat (forgive my spelling) in 1968 and the government aligned itself with the USSR and everything we saw was Russian. They were unreliable then and they are more so now. No one has ever questioned their toughness, just their reliability. Sure they are tough. They hold up pretty well every time they hit a mountain or a building. Unfortunately, the passengers aren't as lucky.

Again, please read the posts carefully.
I think this one has been beaten to death.
FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:44 am

No matter what there will always be someone hating on Russian planes because they're Russian. It's not our fault there's ignorant people out there. Sure they're uneconomical and noisy. But how many posts do you see around here everyday of people wishing DC-9s weren't huskitted(and they're also noisy and uneconomical compared to 737s and 320s) and wishing that 727s and 707 still were flying around. Proves to show you....727s are mostly out and yet there's hundreds of -134s flying. Check the safety record of the Tu-134. www.aviation-safety.net . But don't just look and count up all the accidents and divide by 852 to give me a percentage of crashed aircraft. Read each single one. Let me tell you all this. I own the book Tu-134 by Yefim Gordon which outlines every accident of the type until 2002. A majority is pilot error or just freak accidents. One was caused by a bad runway. Some were in underdeveloped nations that just don't maintain the aircraft. Some writeoffs were because of gear collapse. This was a problem of the Tu-134 which got fixed with time. No aircraft is made perfect or is perfect. No matter how much you think a 737 is perfect, it isn't. You can't judge a plane as being good or bad by looking at these statistics and not studying them. I gave you the Tu-134 as an example. But the truth lies within all of them. Russian planes were built mainly for one customer - Aeroflot. What did Aeroflot need? reliability, versatility, simplicity. Those are the 3 basics in every Russian plane. And they did those three better than any western jet. I understand each one of you has your own opinion. However, saying Russian jets are good for absolutely nothing isn't true. If it was, so many airlines wouldnt use them. The demands of the current market cannot be met fully by most Russian jets becuase they weren't designed for these demands. However, they aren't worhtless. Inferior to Boeing and Airbus, yes but not worthless. I respect Boeing and Airbus as much as any Tupolev or Ilyushin. Why? Because they all did what they were designed to do. Russian planes fill niches western planes can't and vice versa. Which brings me back to the topic. The US is the perfect niche for Boeing and Airbus. The CIS and parts of Africa and Asia are the niches for Russian planes. That's why they don't fly in the US. And Russian airlines only use western equipment because they're trying to fit in. To be "cool" so to speak. Example: Aeroflot was supposed to retire Tu-134s 7 years ago with the 737s, 320s they were planning to buy. Well, they bought the airbuses and boeings but instead of retiring the Tu-134s, they repainted them and kept them in service. The wetern equipment is for show. The Tupolevs do all the dirty work. Simply, you cant replace the extreme routes Russian planes fly with western planes and vice versa. That's the difference.
 
GRZ-AIR
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:02 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:41 am



@Afay1, very nice posts!

@many others...
In the few years I have been here one problem has really developed: Namely that many users state their opinion as being a true fact..its sad!

If you write about Moscow being unsafe then you should also state when you were there and what happened to you!


I live in Austria, and believe it or not we are a modern, western civilization and still we get Russion built airplanes here very often.

TU's fly tourists to many other "western" destinations, and nothing happens...unless a 757 freighter crashes into a 154 filled with children...

To say that russian airplanes generally appear in old style countries is plain crap. I have seen the Antonov cargo airplanes here, picking up Austrian built military equipment then flying it all the way to Canada or even Afghanistan...

I have never been on a russian plane, but I know people who have and I see these planes every once in a while at my airport and I guarantee you, Austria has far more bureaucracy and regulations than the U.S.A and still they are allowed to enter our airspace.

I guess that the American market is generally supplied with american products such as Boeing etc.. as it is simpler and cheaper in case of spare parts, maintenance and so on..

cheers jstflyin
When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
 
sevenair
Posts: 1486
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:41 pm

Well, where Istay, whenever i mention RUssian planes, people kinda shudder, and make a funny expression on their faces. My ma will not go near anything which is Russian, and when we go on a plane, she asks if its Russian-which backs up the theory that most people have no idea what they are flying on. But when you think of all the products available in the US, its not surpising that americans dont buy them. But the same cannot be said for the UK-I wonder y we dont have a single (fixed wing-we do have russian chppers) Russian a/c in our civil fleets to my knowledge
 
iakobos
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:29 pm

errrr, because they suck!
I wouldn't get on one of those even if you upgraded me to the highest levels of service for free
Today, most/all Russian planes must have some airworthiness issue or else they would fly to this country


Looks like an epidemic reaction, not like an opinion.
 
ual747den
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:07 pm

Lakobos writes
Spending a few minutes searching for commercial and cargo airlines worldwide flying Russian/Ukrainian planes and helicopters would certainly enlighten you.
I think that you should follow your own advise and do that. In my post I said that you would not find even 1% to be Russian aircraft (outside of Russia of course) and I will still stick to that.
My world does not stop outside of North America, if it did I would have nothing to say due to the fact that Russian aircraft doesn't fly here. You need to read my post again. I believe the statement that you are questioning me about is this one written by Afay1:
They do have higher accident rates specifically because they are used in underdeveloped countries sometimes without proper maintenance.
Like I said before, this would not prove anything because you can find Boeing aircraft flying all over the world in the same underdeveloped areas and still the Russian aircraft has a worse safety record compared to "Western" aircraft. This statement also doesn't work because in most underdeveloped areas there are no records to show exactly how many planes truly did crash.

Sovietjet writes:
But how many posts do you see around here everyday of people wishing DC-9s weren't huskitted(and they're also noisy and uneconomical compared to 737s and 320s) and wishing that 727s and 707 still were flying around. Proves to show you....727s are mostly out and yet there's hundreds of -134s flying.
I think that this proves the point that we are trying to make that Russian aircraft is unsafe! You just stated that we will still use and fly on a DC-9 even though they are noisy and uneconomical and we would (and wish to) fly on a 727 and 707 even though they are old, however there is no way that we would or any airline would fly Russian aircraft. What you stated is that we would pick any of the old "Western" aircraft over a Russian one, and YES you are correct!
Check the safety record of the Tu-134, But don't just look and count up all the accidents. Read each single one. Let me tell you all this. I own the book Tu-134 by Yefim Gordon which outlines every accident of the type until 2002. A majority is pilot error or just freak accidents. One was caused by a bad runway. Some were in underdeveloped nations that just don't maintain the aircraft. Some writeoffs were because of gear collapse.
Sorry to inform you of this but if the gear collapses that is a problem with the aircraft not just some freak accident. In the world of aviation there is no such thing as a "freak accident" everything happens for a reason. Pilot error is also not something that you can just take out of the equation. Pilot error is usually the direct result of something. (Something usually goes wrong before the pilot makes a mistake) If you were to take out the pilot errors you would have to do the same when comparing the -134 to other aircraft and you would find that it would cancel itself out or in many cases work against the Russian aircraft. Now here are some FACTS to prove my case using your information. 7.9% Of all Tu-134's have been total losses due to incident. When compared to only 2% of Boeing 737's. Now you are going to tell me that a lot have been in underdeveloped countries and for that I tell you to look at my above comments. Boeing 737's fly in the same areas!
You can't judge a plane as being good or bad by looking at these statistics
ummmmm Yeah you can, how else would you do it??!?!?!??
Russian planes were built mainly for one customer - Aeroflot.
Yeah your right they were built for Aeroflot, do you know why? Because the government owns the airline and the aircraft manufacture! They couldn't sell the planes to any other airline so of course they would sell them to themselves, that is no secret.
What did Aeroflot need? Reliability, versatility, simplicity. Those are the 3 basics in every Russian plane. And they did those three better than any western jet
So let me get this right, you are telling me that the Tu-134 is more reliable than the 737? That's a joke! And for the versatility and simplicity the 737 is extremely versatile and the only reason that the Tu-134 is simple is because they don't have enough technology to give it modern amenities. Do you think that pax and airlines don't like having a state of the air aircraft?
saying Russian jets are good for absolutely nothing isn't true. If it was, so many airlines wouldn't use them.
You just said above that they were made for only one airline! And No many airlines do not use them.
Russian airlines only use western equipment because they're trying to fit in. To be "cool" so to speak. The western equipment is for show.
HA HA HA Give me a break! They are not paying millions of dollars to "look cool" they are buying Western aircraft because they are the best that money can buy and that is the only way that Aeroflot can stay alive! The Russian aircraft is more for show than the "Western" They have to keep it around to show that they support the government run company!
So now that I have taken your post apart and showed you what is wrong with your ideas I hope that you can see things differently. It is no secret that "Western" aircraft is a lot more reliable than Russian and that is why the worlds airlines fly it.

/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
iakobos
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:59 pm

UAL747DEN,
you are of course free to believe what you want to believe, since this is your point.

I take little risk in saying that I did my first looping before your father was born, and I have flown to more countries and in more aircraft types in the last 50 years than possibly any other member on A.net.

A few non-arguable facts:
-every Russian/Ukrainian built civilian airliner, passenger and freight, (with only 2 or 3 exceptions) are designed to operate from unpaved runways, unprepared fields, austere and semi-prepared strips.
-these planes can be seen in daily use at most airports in Europe, Asia, Africa.
-unlike A and B, they are built to operate in extreme conditions in extreme environments.
-all United Nations field operations make use of those planes and helicopters, not of A and B
-all planes (even the smaller ones) have a flight engineer position. The idea is not to fix something while in flight, but to be able to perform basic maintenance and fixes anywhere. I have seen crews (engineer + the pilots) fixing what they saw as minor defects in the middle of nowhere, where the same on an A or B would have put the plane off line for 2 days and require the intervention of a team of mechanics.
-...the same goes for military aircraft
-
-adding the number of Ru/Ukr airliners in today's (civilian/cargo) use, I come to the figure of 5,000 (and they were much more 10 years ago).(source A.Net database)


To the topic question: why not in the US ? there are a few reasons, none of them related to unreliability.
-local concurrence (several US firms have tried but to no avail to certify Ru planes)
-fuel economics (most planes/engines were designed in the 50's)
-non-compliance with ICAO stage 3 noise levels
-price (too small production runs)

 
sovietjet
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:22 am

UAL747 - You do understand that American people would obviously be biased towards American aircraft because most Americans still think Russia is bad and take them as a joke. Back to the topic of accidents. Yes I know there's Boeings flying in underdeveloped countries but not NEARLY as much as the amount of Russian planes flying there. And pilot error is just that, pilot error. If a pilot doesnt read his instruments right and crashes in fog then it's his fault. As for the gear collapse, maybe you should've read my entire post and not parts of it you want to criticize. While gear collapse was a cause of some early accidents, the gear bogies on all Tu-134 aircraft were upgraded throughout the years. It is no longer a problem. A Tu-134 right now might not be as reliable as a 737 but all Tu-134s are at least 20 years old. When they were newer they were just as relaible as a 737. And even now they don't break so often. Might break more often than a 737 but not by a huge margin. The 737 is very versatile. However you can't take one and land it on an unpaved unprepared strip in Siberia with almost no airport service and do a regular flight like that for years and years. All Russian planes were built for Aeroflot however when the USSR broke up so did Aeroflot resulting in all the airlines using Russian planes now. Russian planes are less common due to their lower production rates and older age. No major production has been in place for 15 years and the high hour airframes are on their way out. No airline wants to buy old airplanes simply because they are old not because they are crappy. Think about it, an old Mercedes is probably more reliable than a new Mitsubishi Eclipse however you wouldnt buy it because of the age and miles on it. And the Western aircraft serve purpose with Aeroflot, they aren't just for show. They are more economical. Aeroflot doesn't need a versatile aircraft like a Tu-134 to fly to London where the runways are perfectly clean and flat and where airport service is extensive. The 737 does it just fine. However you can't use that 737 to fly to some destinations in Russia. Plus 134's cant fly to Europe because of noise. And Iakobos hit the nail on the head about why Russian planes aren't in the US. It's not their niche.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:28 am

Um, DC-9s are hushkitted or (in the case of NW) reengined to comply with noise requirements. Same with many other older aircraft, as airports wont let them operate without them. Additionally, new Russian Aircraft are mostly available with western engines (RB211s on the TU-204, BR715s on the TU334). I think the main issue is lack of demand. I am sure that if UA or AA wanted to buy 100 TU-204s, they would convince the FAA to certify them, but they don't. They have 757s and no need to pay import taxes on planes that their customers might not be happy to fly on (I would, especially with channel 9, "LA Approach, United 890, we are a TU-204 with Information Romeo")
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sevenair
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:26 am

unfortunately, it is down to reputation, and in the past Russian a/c and its airlines have had VERY bad press. Which is why certingly in the UK we dont use them. And I cant see them being used by a UK operator in the near future. Nor can I see this in the US, nor Canada, nor a lot of places.
 
iakobos
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:29 am

N1120A,
You are right, there is (will be) a marketing aspect to Ru planes in the West.
Public perception depends on so little.

> channel 9: <> would make any fighter pilot proud...
 
ual747den
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:02 am

I think that its important to mention that although I am behind my posts 100% and the facts that I mentioned are overwhelming in the favor of "Western" aircraft. I would have no problem flying on a Russian aircraft, in fact I will make a point to do so. I personally love to fly on new types of aircraft no matter what their record. When I get the opportunity to fly on a really old or rare aircraft I take it!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
gearup
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:04 am

......The 737 is very versatile. However you can't take one and land it on an unpaved unprepared strip in Siberia with almost no airport service and do a regular flight like that for years and years.

I dunno, many Canadian carriers have done very well operating legacy 737's into rough landing strips in the Canadian North under severe weather conditions. I think the 737 deserves a lot of credit for it's ruggedness, reliability and versatility. Just my 0.02c worth!

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
afay1
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:35 am

Those 737's had specially modified landing gear, although the airframe is the same. Nobody is arguing the 737 is bad, there just aren't hundreds of flights a day onto poor strips. Anyway, the UK does indeed have Russian aircraft, TNT flies TU-204's with Rolls Royce engines. What is more British than Rolls Royce?Not to mention that the Duke of Edinburgh is the closest living relative of the last Tsar. Russian/Ukrainian acft are also not banned in Britain as some have implied, most simply cannot be imported for domestic passenger ops and registration.
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:19 am

Nobody is arguing the 737 is bad

Afay1:

you mean to say "nobody is arguing that the 737 is GOOD", right?
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:37 am

FLY2LIM,

Yeah, the frase "Russian A/C suck" is REAAAALLY mature and well supported statement. Nonetheless, I would not fly them either.

CHOLO CHABUCO!


Kdx In TLH
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
afay1
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:29 am

I never argued the 737 is bad, and that isn't the point of this thread anyway. The point is that if one flies a Tu154M and a 737-200, one won't notice much difference except perhaps in the Y seats and the M is much quieter.
 
tu114
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:03 am

I don't ususally rise to the bait but there's just so many people spouting opinions that one visit to any of the large (and very easy to find, people) air safety databases would refute:

a) The %ge of Russian built aircraft from Tu134 onwards lost in fatality incidents is a little higher than that for western built types.

b) If you compare like with like and remove accidents that were not caused by a failure of the aircraft, it's systems or a fault in the design (ie ignore (for Russian and Western aircraft) accidents caused by ATC, pilot error, freak weather conditions, bombs, hijackings and missiles) then there is no statistically significant difference.

So we may conclude that despite doing more flying in very adverse conditions (extreme temperatures / unmade strips / large swathes of Russia with no ATC coverage (that's why they have navigators still on many routes) the Russian planes don't do so badly.

As to why we don't see them in the West so much:

a) Tu134 / Tu154 / Il62 were designed in the 60s and although all were built for many years they are the technological equivalents of VC10s, BAC 1-11s B727s etc etc. We don't see many of those in Europe either. They're too loud.

b) All Soviet era planes were designed to be dual use as military transports (Il76s even had tail gun positions despite being in Aeroflot colours at one point). Hence huge landing gear, massive short / unpaved strip capabilities, and the ability to be maintained with a lump hammer in a field.

c) Soviet economics was not (with respect) a strong point so issues like total cost of ownership and fuel economy were not huge priorities.

So what do you get when you ask your aircraft designer to come with a plane based on the following specs:

a) must be able to work to and from the middle of nowhere to airstrips with limited facilities.

b) must be easy for semi-trained staff to repair

c) must need a minimum of complex parts

d) must be dual use as a troop carrier

e) must be tough as old boots

Answer - a Tu 154

If the specs are

a) minimum cost to buy and own

b) almost exclusively operates from sophisticated paved airfields

c) use as little fuel as possible

d) shortest possible turn around

Answer - a B727

So to sum up - there's no particular evidence that on any fair comparison either Western or Russian aircraft are safer. They are very different in execution because they were specified to do almost entirely different things.
 
tu114
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:06 am

And after that outburst I should probably add that I have flown both the Tu134 and Tu154 quite successfully. I don't _appear_ to be dead!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Why No Russian Planes In The U.S.?

Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am

Why no Russian planes in the US?

You can just as well ask, why no Russian planes in Russia? 90% of the addition to Russian pax fleets during the last ten years have been new or used "western" planes. Many Russian made planes are still active, but very few have been built during the past, or is being built today.

Only very few Tu-204 have been produced. The Tu-334 prototype has been sitting on the ground for some twelve years now. Production of larger and long range planes have reached a complete stand still. At the same time Russian operators lease Boeing and Airbus products at an ever increasing rate.

So for all practical things, the Russian airliner industry has simply ceased to exist. During the last ten years they probably made fewer planes than Toulouse puts out every month.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs

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