quickmover
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Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:23 am

There should be alot of new Airtran flights next year. I think they have around 20 new aircraft (737 and 717) arriving next year without any retirements. Does anyone have any guesses where most of the flying will be? Will they make a bigger push into DFW in light of Delta's pullback or will they wait for a USAir vacancy? One thing for sure, once those aircraft are delivered, they won't be parked.
 
quickmover
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:28 am

As coincidence would have it, looks like I spoke too soon.


Monday October 4, 1:01 PM EDT


ATLANTA (Dow Jones)--AirTran Holdings Inc. (AAI) Chief Executive Joe Leonard said the hurricanes in Florida have prompted him to trim some growth plans.

In an interview with Dow Jones Newswires, Leonard said he is considering delaying the delivery of around six Boeing Co. (BA) aircraft. AirTran has ordered 100 Boeing 737s and has taken delivery of four.

Leonard said the hurricanes affected 51% of AirTran's network because the airline has so much service to Florida. In fact, on Monday, AirTran announced it would add service to another Florida city, Sarasota, AirTran's first new city this year.

Leonard said he still plans double-digit percentage capacity growth despite a slight slowdown.

-By Elizabeth Souder, Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-4148

 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:32 am

>>>AirTran has ordered 100 Boeing 737s and has taken delivery of four.

Last I heard, they had placed firm orders for 50, and had options for another 50. Did they convert the 50 options to firm orders (and I missed it), or did the reporter flub the facts?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
quickmover
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:43 am

So much for the rumor about FL aquiring ATA's 737-800s.
 
iowaman
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:50 am

Let's hope they dont end up buying the Airbus A311-100.  Laugh out loud

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00001143
 
quickmover
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:54 am

"ATLANTA (Dow Jones)--AirTran Holdings Inc. (AAI) Chief Executive Joe Leonard said the hurricanes in Florida have prompted him to trim some growth plans.

In an interview with Dow Jones Newswires, Leonard said he is considering delaying the delivery of around six Boeing Co. (BA) aircraft. AirTran has ordered 100 Boeing 737s and has taken delivery of four."


Will someone please tell me how hurricanes that have already hit have any relation to trimming future growth plans. Southwest is talking about going to DFW and buying more planes in the used market to keep growing PHL and BWI at the same time. I guess the hurricane didn't hit any of their gates in Florida.

Way too cautious IMO.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:01 am

no bashing, i dont think the workd revloves around it, but jusk asking. What are the odds oof Airtran coming to CRW? Please just an answer.
 
717-200
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:26 am

The reason why the hurricanes have had a relation to trimming future growth
plans at FL is because over half of AirTran's revenue comes out of one state,
Florida, as stated in another recent forum. FL needs to diversify the route
structure (ala more cities out west ABQ, SAN, SEA, SLC etc) instead of
trying to fly in and out of every city and town in Florida.
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
N1120A
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:40 am

Beyond the problem of FL loving FL, even B6 is hurting over the hurricaines because of their FL network. WN has the cash position to brush this off like a piece of dust, but the other 2 are barely majors and not as diversified yet. Don't worry, FL is not going 11 over this but they probably have to keep a hold on some cash for a while
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
JAXpax
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:56 am

no bashing, i dont think the workd revloves around it, but jusk asking. What are the odds oof Airtran coming to CRW? Please just an answer.

Don't know and don't care, but I must say that your posts on every single thread are reminding us of ILOVEBOI....
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:00 am

I did some digging, and the original order (announced last summer) was for 100 aircraft, consisting of 50 firm orders and options for another 50. In July of 2004, they exercised two of those options, so they have 52 on order (some of which have been delivered) and 48 remaining options.

AirTran Airways Announces Order for 100 Boeing 737 Aircraft
ORLANDO, Fla., July 1 [2003] /PRNewswire/ -- AirTran Airways, a subsidiary of AirTran Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AAI), today announced at a press conference at Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport that the airline has placed an order for 100 new Boeing 737-700 and -800 series aircraft - of which 50 are firm orders and 50 are options. At the same time, the airline placed an additional order for up to 10 Boeing 717 aircraft.

AirTran Airways Exercises Options for Two Boeing 737 Aircraft
ORLANDO, Fla., July 20 [2004] /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- AirTran Airways, a subsidiary of AirTran Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: AAI), today announced that the airline has converted purchase options to firm orders for two new Boeing 737-700 series aircraft. Delivery of the two new aircraft is scheduled to take place in the first quarter of 2006. The announcement comes only a few weeks after the low-cost airline accepted delivery of the first of 100 new Boeing 737-700 aircraft.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
iowaman
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:07 am

no bashing, i dont think the workd revloves around it, but jusk asking. What are the odds oof Airtran coming to CRW? Please just an answer.

Hate to break it to ya, but very slim, I doubt they could fill a 717 to ATL. At least you have Independence Air.
 
ATL2CDG
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:13 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:15 am

Quickmover:

FL has a substantial number of flights that either originate or terminate in various Florida and other Southeastern markets. The various hurricanes of late caused the cancellations of hundreds of flights; each cancelled flight resulted in the loss of thousands of dollars each, both with on-board traffic lose and connecting traffic. Furthermore, the FL HDQ and a primary maintenance hangar in MCO received substantial damage - costs that were not originally projected the in 3Q budget. These events thus result in a substantial decrease in revenue and notable expenditure increase. Without showing a nominal operating profit, the ability to acquisition and implement into the fleet new airframes is cost-prohibitive. While AirTran may be able to fill the seats without a concern, having the money to initially bring those aircraft online is the main determining factor.

Southwest, while still reeling from the hurricanes, is not in as bad a position has it has a MUCH more diversified network and was better able to adapt to the various airport closures and such.

Kcrwflyer:

Given that CRW would likely be unable to support AirTran's requirement of a minimum of three roundtrips per day for short- to medium-haul destinations, it is quite improbable that your fair city would see AirTran service in the foreseeable future.

[Edited 2004-10-04 23:15:52]

[Edited 2004-10-04 23:17:58]
Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
 
CMHSRQ
Posts: 822
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:23 am

Funny you should ask. AirTran will start new service to SRQ from ATL and BWI on Dec 17th.
The voice of moderation
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1699
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:28 am

Kcrwflyer,

Just not enough passengers...

Yes, I know I am a little biased, but I honestly believe they will be in St Louis before the end of 2005. Our Airport Authority has went to Atlanta, and they have came here. I really hope they didn't show them the D concourse where they would be shacked up at, that could ruin our chances alone with those horrid purple walls. Big grin
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:52 am

yeah, i guess delta does own the market. i do think they could fill a 717, as delta fills 5 crj's and they even throw a cr7 into the mix just to see if itll sell out too, it normally does. But u know me, im tryin to see something bigger than an rj. I think that 100 seats isnt too much to fill... worth a try. Indy came in with a bang.

and how many passengers do you need to have? its not gonna be all O&D. and with US about to get kicked out were gonna need something to pick up slack as they are the largest carrier.

and yes independence is nice..
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:21 am

"The reason why the hurricanes have had a relation to trimming future growth
plans at FL is because over half of AirTran's revenue comes out of one state,
Florida, as stated in another recent forum. FL needs to diversify the route
structure (ala more cities out west ABQ, SAN, SEA, SLC etc) instead of
trying to fly in and out of every city and town in Florida."


All the more reason to add jets to diversify now.

I don't know what type of loss they are looking at, but they had close to $400 mil in cash last time I looked. If a major carrier goes away, they need to be ready to take advantage of the void.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:18 am

Kcrwflyer,

Notice I didn't say the market o/d can't support it, CRW itself doesn't have enough passengers to fill 3 717's a day with the current service.
 
srbmod
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:24 am

Just because the hurricanes are long gone, the effects will last for quite a while. Tourism is going to see a dip, even though we are in the middle of one of the yearly dips in leisure travel, as some folks will avoid Florida because of the uncertainity in regards to lodging and attractions. Add to this Florida residents probably will be too involved in picking up the pieces to want to travel anywhere. This is even going to affect the Snowbird migration this year as well.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:39 am

Any opinions on them flying into DSM??? Maybe we will see them come back in the future.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:45 am

"Notice I didn't say the market o/d can't support it, CRW itself doesn't have enough passengers to fill 3 717's a day with the current service."

i dont exactly understand what you mean. Do you mean added to the current service they couldnt do it? Is that their base amount of flights? 3 717's per day?
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:57 am

I just mean that the market isn't large enough to fill those planes even with connecting passengers, if an additional 300 passengers a day could be created by FL, I would be completely shocked.
 
dsuairptman
Posts: 695
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:12 am

While Florida might be an improtant part of FL route structure, we need more ATL non stops from GPT.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:15 am

I just mean that the market isn't large enough to fill those planes even with connecting passengers, if an additional 300 passengers a day could be created by FL, I would be completely shocked.

Indy did it.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1699
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:25 am

The splash of the first LCC entry into a market will have a larger impact on passenger numbers than the second will.

Besides, what do they have on IAD-CRW? 6 dailies? Obviously they aren't filling all the seats (I think the loads were like 50%), so thats like 150 pax. I'll give CRW the benefit of the doubt and say that they'll get that LF to 80%which is 240 pax a day (thats a fairly optimistic prediction). FL w/ 3 flights would be about 350ish....

Plain and simple, the market isn't big enough.

[Edited 2004-10-05 02:28:10]
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:37 am

ehh i guess your right. but you never know. Indys systemwide loads are 47%. in CRW, the airport director said that they were around 70% or so.

I was just think of this because they fly to all of our largest markets. and DL makes a killing on CRW-ATL. What about 2 717's per day? Or do they have a bare minimum like WN does?

How does bloomington, Il have airtran? It says as a connection to champaign on the website but that makes less sense. I was there over the summer and Champaign/Urbania is no where near as large as our metro area is. I even saw a flight to MCO, and was blown away.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:54 am

>>>AirTran has ordered 100 Boeing 737s and has taken delivery of four.

Last I heard, they had placed firm orders for 50, and had options for another 50. Did they convert the 50 options to firm orders (and I missed it), or did the reporter flub the facts?

It's a flub. They ordered 50 firm with 50 options, one of which have been converted.

One Nation Under God
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:14 am

Thanks.. I figured it out back in reply #10..  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
rwylie77
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:17 pm

Sounds like an excuse to me - expanding into Dallas would spread the risk surely - expanding their routes away from Florida would spread their risk if there are more bad breezes in Florida next year.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:42 am

It is my understanding that the GPT flights are subsidized.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:47 am

Will someone please tell me how hurricanes that have already hit have any relation to trimming future growth plans.

AirTran is a heavily southeast-US centered airline. When I went to work with them in 2002, 40% of their profits came from Florida routes. I don't see that number declining...

In other words, they've taken a significant hit to their Net Income this year, money they were counting on to pay for those planes...

WN has the cash position to brush this off like a piece of dust, but the other 2 are barely majors and not as diversified yet.

Actually, neither one is a "Major" carrier yet. Neither B6 nor FL have hit the $1billion mark, though I wouldn't be surprised at either one becoming one this year...

Any opinions on them flying into DSM??? Maybe we will see them come back in the future.

There's a possibility that the new 717s and the 717s which will be relieved from heavier routes by 737s could be used to operate to DSM, but there are other attractive markets as well. DSM is only marginally larger than ICT, and FL has made some modest noise about dropping that route, as well.

Sounds like an excuse to me - expanding into Dallas would spread the risk surely - expanding their routes away from Florida would spread their risk if there are more bad breezes in Florida next year.

I believe that careful expansion at BWI (read: Does not step on too many of WN's toes) also helps spread that risk. If FL added service from BWI to LGA, MKE, MDW, RDU, BUF, CAK, EWR, PBI and MSP, they'd mostly stay away from WN markets while adding significant service to BWI, spread the risk of foul weather, and add a whole new market from the northeast US to the midwest and south.

Also, did anyone notice FL's new route map? It looks an awful lot like WN and HP...

http://www.airtran.com/destinations/routemap/index.jsp
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:00 am

I wonder if the rumblings from Southwest that they may start service from DFW will change any of FL's plans. AMR would have a major fight on their hands if LUV went to DFW.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:22 am

FlyNavy,

It is my understanding that the GPT flights are subsidized.

You are 100% Correct. Without the Beau Rivage, and Grand Casinos Pumping Cash to AirTran, they would pack up everything and leave without forgetting so much as a biscoff crumb. The City of Gulfport, and The City of Biloxi are not subsidizing AirTran, and the State of Mississippi is not subsidizing AirTran either.

DID YOU KNOW THAT??? As Part of the Beau Rivage Contract, GPT was the FIRST city to get ALL 717 Service?

Puhdiddle
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:52 am

If it wasn't for MGM-Mirage and Caesar's Entertainment, the only service GPT would have to ATL would be on CRJs and ATR-72s.

Rumor has it that FL is looking at some of DL's soon to be abandoned gates @ DFW. Whether this goes past the kicking the jetway tires, who knows. If WN does indeed come to DFW, all bets are off, as I think FL might rethink DFW if that happens.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:05 am

I would think that if WN wasn't tied down trying to grow PHL, they would be in DFW in a second. The fact that the WN CEO is openly talking about going into the abandoned DL gates takes things to more than the rumor stage. In the mean time, I would think that FL could go to almost any former major DL destination from DFW and make it work. FL needs more frequency than just one daily flight to get any serious following in DFW. Delta mostly had 3 or 4 dailys to the major destinations. Does anyone know how the current DFW routes are working out for FL?
 
ScottB
Posts: 5501
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:10 am

"If FL added service from BWI to LGA, MKE, MDW, RDU, BUF, CAK, EWR, PBI and MSP, they'd mostly stay away from WN markets while adding significant service to BWI..."

* LGA & EWR are too close to BWI to get much O&D; the train takes about the same amount of time or less.
* MKE is already served from BWI.
* MDW has 8 daily non-stops on WN; BUF has 7 daily non-stops on WN; RDU has 6 daily non-stops on WN; PBI has 4 daily non-stops on WN. BWI-CLE has 5 daily non-stops on WN, so it may be tough to compete on BWI-CAK.
* BWI-MSP could work if NWA chose not to respond as they did on F9's MSP-LAX.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6507
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:39 am

Does anyone know how the current DFW routes are working out for FL?

From FL's interactive route map; DFW non-stop flights include ATL, BWI, FLL, LAS, LAX, & MCO.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
GroundStop
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:45 am

"MKE is already served from BWI."

Not anymore. This route was dropped shortly after the end of the JetConnect contract.


 
NikonDFW
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:58 am

RE: Airlines Of Yesterday

Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:19 am

Airtran is starting DFW-TPA flights in December, or Janurary.
 
quickmover
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:29 am

Are they filling the planes from DFW?
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:33 am

I want to know if theyre filling the planes from BMI
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1699
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:38 am

I think that BMI actually does pretty well, it is the headquarters for State Farm Insurance and Country Insurance both of whom are very large providers. Then there is the Mistubishi plants and Illinois State University add on 150 thousand residents or so and you have some full 717's. I know for a fact that my dad's company's (country) execs fly FL because of the mainline a/c, and I'd assume State Farm guys follow suit.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:33 am

how many pax can thes companys possibly put on planes? DOW Chemicals has a big operation in Charleston and all they squeezed out is an erj to iah.

The interesting thing is, they seem to have much less departures.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5501
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:21 am

"This route [MKE-BWI] was dropped shortly after the end of the JetConnect contract."

Funny, I looked at the PDF timetable online to be sure, and it was still there. I guess the timetable is a bit out of date. But if it was served and dropped, it's probably not a good candidate for the near future...
 
ScottB
Posts: 5501
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:23 am

JAXpax says, "Don't know and don't care, but I must say that your posts on every single thread are reminding us of ILOVEBOI...."

Is that sort of like the way certain posters try to relate any thread to new service at RDU?
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5498
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:26 am

Is that sort of like the way certain posters try to relate any thread to new service at RDU?

Well, as the saying goes.. talk about what you know or don't talk at all..
Aiming High and going far..
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6176
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:27 am

NW now flies BWI-MKE with 2 daily CRJ's
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1699
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RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:32 am

Kcrwflyer,

They have enough business to where in the past Frontier flew there. It didn't work out because of the really dumb routing BMI-OMA-DEN, and at that time there was quite a bit of loyalty to TWA in the area. CRW is only comparable to BMI in population size alone, BMI houses alot of business traffic.
 
BH346
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:41 am

AirTran announced that Wichita loses 1 flight to ATL. Over the last year or so, it seems like FL has been reducing frequencies in the fall and then adds capacity in the spring. I think with the new contract FL did with the city a few months ago, they probably have some sort of obligation to keep service in Wichita for a year. However, with new MCO service starting soon, it's not all bad news in ICT. (Not to mention many airlines increasing frequencies and the news that there will be a new destination announced by someone with a couple of weeks)
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Airtran Growth Next Year

Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:42 am

I think Airtran should figure out what they want to do in PHL. Because if they stay as they are now, i can definitely see them being somewhat run out of town(that is if US stays around) by Southwest. They compete with Airtran from PHL-Boston area, PBI, TPA, MCO, and FLL. Southwest already has just about the same number of florida flts as Airtran after just 6 months while Airtran has been serving these markets for years. Now that Southwest has just about secured another 2 gates in PHL, more Florida flts may very well come and Airtran's prior success on these routes may start to dwindle now that they are not the only low-fare airline on these routes.

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