Delta777Jet
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Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:58 pm

Continental Airlines will start daily B-767-200ER service from Berlin/Tegel airport to New York/EWR on May 10th 2005! This service is due to leave Berlin/TXL airport at 11:00 am and arrived EWR at 1:30pm ! CO leaved EWR at 7:15pm and arrived TXL at 09:00am! Handling Agent in Berlin will be AHS!

Just got info direct from Berlin airport !
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CALMSP
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:07 pm

havben't seen it uploaded yet.................we'll see.......
 
EddieDude
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:08 pm

Nice move! Any info on the supposed EWR-HAM flight?
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MSYtristar
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:09 pm

Great news if it's true. Talk about an untapped market! Continental really pioneers underserved European destinationsfrom NYC. I hope this one comes to pass...I've heard some great things about Berlin...and this route will make it that much easier to get to.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:10 pm

Good luck for them, I hope they will make the best out of a seemingly low-yield market, where everyone else has failed. Berlin has been the cementery for many intercontinental ambitions - e.g. LH, SQ, AA, TW...
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
CALMSP
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:13 pm

I'm surprised they said a 762? sure it wasn't a 757?
 
toltommy
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:14 pm

DL had the route authority that was acquired from PA. They weren't making money on it, even tried using WAW based FA's to fly it to help turn a profit. US based DL FA's raised a fuss, flying went back to US bases. Route closed shortly thereafter.
 
LUV4JFK
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:14 pm

I thought Continental was strapped with their widebodies. Where is this extra 762 coming from or what route will no longer have 762 service? It seems to me that this route should be used with a 757 to start. Anyway, how did Berlin pass the suggested Belfast & Lagos routes to get their start? I thought those would have be the next 2 cities announced for new service out of EWR.

LUV4JFK
 Big thumbs up
John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:31 pm

well im sure it can be worked out............last night here in IAH we ahd two 777's and one 764 overnight here......
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 pm

If this is true, it's great news, and I think CO has a good shot at succeeding where others have failed. EWR offers a unique combination of the huge NYC O&D market and the connecting traffic of a significant hub. This is what enables CO to serve destinations like EDI and OSL that other US majors wouldn't touch.

As for equipment, if it is in fact a 762 then it's probably due to range issues. EWR-TXL is really pushing it for a 757--it's almost 300 miles farther than OSL, for example.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
TWFirst
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:38 pm

AWESOME!!! I believe the Berlin market has evolved after reunification over the last decade. More business now, national capital, etc... metro area of 4 million. I believe it will work, especially with CO's huge hub at EWR.

Fantastic! Can't wait to fly it.

Ich liebe Continental und Berlin!
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:47 pm


>>>I believe the Berlin market has evolved after reunification over the last decade. More business now,

Sadly, the contrary is the case. Many of the firms based in Berlin were lured there by generous government subsidies. After the Cold War ended, Berlin´s special status as an island of Western civilisation within the very Empire of Evil ended, and so did the subsidies.

Combined with the economic downfall of the East (i.e. half of Berlin plus the hinterland), Berlin as an economic centre is not even second rate.

Berlin is home to less enterprises with 100+ employees than Mannheim with a population of 300,000. I wonder when MHG gets EWR service on CO; oh wait, our 1066 metre runway might be a bit too short  Laugh out loud

Daniel Smile
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:56 pm

Good for CO. I hope they can make it fly!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
One Nation Under God
 
TWFirst
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:57 pm

>>Sadly, the contrary is the case. Many of the firms based in Berlin were lured there by generous government subsidies. After the Cold War ended, Berlin´s special status as an island of Western civilisation within the very Empire of Evil ended, and so did the subsidies.

Combined with the economic downfall of the East (i.e. half of Berlin plus the hinterland), Berlin as an economic centre is not even second rate.<<


I know that Berlin does not compare to Frankfurt or München (or Mannheim it seems) as far as business centres, but certainly, the development happening at Potsdamer Platz illustrates that major global businesses do have a presence there and as I understand it, it is gradually growing and improving. No? Perhaps now that Berlin is more in the center of the expanded EU, it will lead to greater growth?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
AeroAussie
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:21 am

Bravo, Continental. They've always been pioneers on over the Atlantic, opening routes that nobody else would touch. And now that they've joined Skyteam, they've become an even more attractive airline - the frequent flier benefits are boundless. I hope that they succeed in this market, and many more to come.

-Nick
 
godbless
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:40 am

the development happening at Potsdamer Platz illustrates that major global businesses do have a presence there and as I understand it, it is gradually growing and improving.
Well since you mentioned the Potsdamer Platz... Sony for example will soon leave Berlin and move to Munich(?).

Regarding the route:
If true I wish CO all the best and I see potencial. The problem LH had was that the A343 was too big so the 762 might be fine.

Max
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:50 am

Here's hoping CO can make a go of it. No one else has been able to find the secret to turning a profit on this route despite the potential diplomatic traffic, and the increasing number of companies with offices there.

Just as an aside, I wonder if the fact that there is no major airport or hub at Berlin has something to do with it? TXL is too small and SXF is too antiquated, and THF is too much a museum piece to fit the bill. At present I would guess US-Berlin would be almost all O&D traffic. When the new Brandenburg airport is built, it has the potential for becoming a third hub (Listeining Lufthansa?) behind FRA and MUC, and could be well positioned as a gateway for Eastern Europe.

Does this make sense or am I totally off base?

Charles, SJ

The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:53 am

Cool...one more flight to add to Newark's delays! Wow, as a flyer, I just love overscheduling. Thanks, CO for thinking of me.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:56 am

>>Sony for example will soon leave Berlin and move to Munich(?).<<

Didn't know that... sorry to hear it.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:27 am

Just as an aside, I wonder if the fact that there is no major airport or hub at Berlin has something to do with it?

This is exactly what LH said after they failed to establish a TXL-EWR route. It's difficult to maintain international connections to a non-hub. It's basically a dead-end for passengers. However, LH offered only one flight per week in each direction, making the route unattractive for business travellers against the background that FRA provides a much more dense timetable that includes lots of one-hour-flights to TXL. Add the ICE high-speed train to that and there was no good reason to book EWR-TXL nonstop.

Economy was well accepted, but not the money-maker business class, LH said.

I'm very much hoping CO, with their smaller 762 and a more frequent schedule, will succeed.

[Edited 2004-10-06 18:48:45]
I support the right to arm bears
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:50 am

Continental would be in a much better position than Lufthansa. For one, the B762 is better suited than the A342 in this particular market, and - unlike LH - CO does have a hub at one end of the route.
 
vanguard737
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:36 am

I understand why Berlin has been such an under-served market, but I believe Continental's move is a great indication of the progress Berlin is making since German RE-unification. I believe this will lead to more airlines into the Berlin market and help vitalize the citie's economy. Berlin is a beautiful city, rich in history, and I cannot wait to go! (Summer of '05 hopefully)

And a side question for our German friends: So what's the deal with the Palast der Republik and the Stadtschloss? Will the Stadtschloss be rebuilt? I hope it will; that orange, esbestos filled thing is an eyesore. However, does Berlin really have the money to be rebuiling Prussian palaces right now?

(Sorry everyone I know that wasn't aviation related!)
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AirBerlin
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:27 am

THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been waiting for this thread to appear for ever. Ever since LH stopped their IAD service Berlin has been without a direct connection to the states. As an American living in Berlin this has been absolutly horrible. THANK YOU CONTINENTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

al
 
Cory6188
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:30 am

Has anyone heard or read anything officially confirming this service. If CALMSP still doesn't know (and he works at CO), I would still be a little leery. We also heard that CO is almost definitely going to start DUB, but we haven't heard anything about that either.
 
wgw2707
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:33 am

Having been there twice Vanguard737 I will tell you I fear you may be in for a dissapointment. Berlin is ugly and expansive, and the few architectural gems are seperated by large clusters of boring office and residential structures. The zoo and the cathedral at the very least are worth visiting.

I think Berlin is somewhat underserved, and Continental's flight will be a welcome addition. There is a definite need for more air service at Berlin. Developing Berlin as an air transport hub will boost the economy of the city, enabling it to make progress towards being a German center of commerce again, up there with Frankfurt, Munich et cetera. DB already provides rail connections throughout Germany but I don't think that's quite enough: there needs to be direct intercontinental connectivity by air to major world destinations before Berlin can really start to thrive as an economic center.

-WGW2707
 
fraT
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:36 am

I still have my doubts. As said before, CO is using their widebodies close to the max. Then they applied for the Chinese routes for which they need to take the 777 away from a European route. Not sure if they have a route where they can replace a 762 with a 752.
I would love to see a second CO flight in Germany but I wait for a official release.
 
gjunnar
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:54 am

i'd really appreciate that step.
in july e.g. more than 3900 passengers travelled from berlin to JFK or EWR, via frankfurt, paris, london, amsterdam of course!
yet there still is the question if any airline can fill their business-class, which definitely is the biggest problem/challenge on the transatlantic-routes.

"I understand why Berlin has been such an under-served market, but I believe Continental's move is a great indication of the progress Berlin is making since German RE-unification. I believe this will lead to more airlines into the Berlin market and help vitalize the citie's economy"

we always admire the united states for their positive attitudes and optimism. still we germans have to acknowledge that berlin's situation is worse than ever before. so we all hope this EWR-course promotes the economy, but I personally doubt that.

"And a side question for our German friends: So what's the deal with the Palast der Republik and the Stadtschloss? Will the Stadtschloss be rebuilt? I hope it will; that orange, esbestos filled thing is an eyesore. However, does Berlin really have the money to be rebuiling Prussian palaces right now?"

actually they want to build it, as you correctly say, with no money. so probably the airport will open before the castle will. guess 20 years or so  Wink/being sarcastic

www.livestrong.com and vote for kerry!
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:55 am

So what's the deal with the Palast der Republik and the Stadtschloss? Will the Stadtschloss be rebuilt?

If they can get all the asbestos out of it, I think they should retain it as a museum of the old DDR. Would be interesting to teach future generations what happened during that time, life under communism etc., plus it offers some unique possiblities for exhibits such as Erich Honicker's office, etc.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
AirBerlin
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:57 am

Vanguard737: The Schloss will be rebuilt despite Berlin's financial troubles. The money has already been aproved by the Senate. The Palast der Republik will be demolished and it will be built at that location.

As for this new route I am sure that this intercontinental endeavour will be be a success. Berlin has a very large american community (embassy and private) that will surely boost the number of prospectives passengers for this flight.

AL
 
TWFirst
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:59 am

Last I heard, the Stadtschloss is definitely coming down and the Palast will be rebuilt... I thought there was a fundraising campaign going on.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
chqdispatch
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:39 am

I remember flying TXL-ORD on AA years and years ago and boy, that plane was full and that inlcudes coach and business. I got 'upgraded' to business shortly after take off because a baby next to me puked all over my seat (barely missing me) and my seat became, well, too squishy to occupy. Coach was full to the rim but there were a few seats left in business. SWEET.

I would love to see CO in Berlin but whatever happend to the ATA rumor looking for a german city to fly out of?
 
NoUFO
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:00 am

First off: I was talking about LH's EWR-TXL route. How embarassing. LH served Washington D.C. - Berlin. Sorry.

Ctbarnes,
The asbestos had been removed from the "Palast der Republik" years ago (that's why that thing looks more ugly than ever), and actually there's currently sort of phantasy world installed in it which you can visit.
I support the right to arm bears
 
pelican
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:18 am

That sounds like a nice opportunity to me for a trip to NY.  Big thumbs up
Berlin and trans-atlantic flights is a sad story. I hope this will change soon.
 Laugh out loud Big grin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Big thumbs up

Berlin is ugly and expansive

Ugly? maybe. But definetly not expensive, actually Berlin is probably the cheapest capital in western Europe, because of its bad economical state.

The money has already been aproved by the Senate.

Huh? I've missed something. Where do they get 1Billion Euros?

the Stadtschloss is definitely coming down and the Palast will be rebuilt...
You must have confused something  Nuts

pelican



 
JoFMO
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:21 am

One floor is filled is with water and you can cajak on it!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:21 am

We also heard that CO is almost definitely going to start DUB

CO has long since flown to DUB...
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Cory6188
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:22 am

Sorry, I meant BFS. I have a really bad cold, feel like crap, and I'm just not with it today.
 
N1120A
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:33 am

I think Berlin is a beautiful, inexpensive and increadibly fun place. Also, they are probably using the 762, not for range issues, but because they think they can fill the extra Biz/First seats and possibly haul good cargo loads. Also, given that it is the most populous city in Germany, I am sure the O&D can fill the 762 they will be flying (both classes).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AirBerlin
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:36 am

Has anybody heard anything about Riviera Jet. They were lookign to start service between TXL and JFK. Their website had some info but now it's blank..

AL
 
vanguard737
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:39 am

PELICAN:

He never said Berlin was expensive, he said it was EXPANSIVE (as in large)

Tschuss
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User avatar
STT757
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:40 am

As posted in an earlier thread a reliable rumor a month or so ago is that CO is set to launch 6 new Trans-Atlantic routes for '05,

Bristol is Official
Belfast is confirmed (media) to be close to a formal announcement
Lagos is also close to being confirmed

We now have Berlin, which although we have no media link seems to be a valid source since we have departure dates and times.

Two more should be in the works..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
NoUFO
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:43 am

The money has already been aproved by the Senate.

Huh? I've missed something. Where do they get 1Billion Euros?


It seems that no tax money will be spent on rebuilding the Stadtschloss. It's a privately held organization that does all the planning. Many people have donated money to bring back the Schloss.
I support the right to arm bears
 
FutureFO
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:58 am

Unforutanately LH tried thic capitol-capitol service a few years ago on the 340. Thos being TXL-IAD. Did not make that much money at all and they dropped the service.


Sean from MCO and CVG
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
klwright69
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

What is the source that says that CO will start this new route??

It is certainly possible that CO will start this new route, but CO has never done very well in the German market, so this is surprising. But anything is possible.
 
coa764
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:27 am

I agree! Name your source and supply a link...

The sheep on this page tend to blindly follow the flock and, well for the few of us that don't ... send the facts!
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
mia
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:37 pm

I just have one question, why wouldn't they open service to SXF? Isn't SXF a better airport?
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
masseybrown
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:54 pm

I have my doubts about the 762 part of this rumor. As pointed out, CO doesn't have very many of them and the route, which failed to generate sufficient traffic for widebodies in the past, seems tailor made for the CO's 752 program.

EWR-TXL is about 3460nm and the 752 range (without winglets) is 3950nm.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:47 pm

Let me do some math...

If 3.900 passengers were flying to NYC from BER via other hubs in the peak season month of July, it equates to 130 passengers on a daily basis.

Now you have to take into account that a nonstop flight may generate some additonal demand, but you also have to substract a number of passengers, who will choose other airlines anyways despite CO's direct flight. For the sake of simplification, let's say, this number equates to the number of newly generated demand.

Do you think that CO could operate this route profitably with only 130 passengers per flight even in a peak month?

Berlin's industrial base is pretty weak, so there might be some incoming cargo traffic, but the outbound traffic to the US should be fairly limited. So the revenue potential of cargo is - IMO - limited. If they are operating a B752 on this route, it would be limited for range reasons anyways.

I have my doubts regarding the success of this route, but since CO's commercial department will certainly have done a more professional and sophisticated calculation than mine, I give them the benefit of doubt and cross my finger that the route will work out.  Smile
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
fraT
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:48 pm

"in july e.g. more than 3900 passengers travelled from berlin to JFK or EWR, via frankfurt, paris, london, amsterdam of course! "

...and more than 2.000 of them are holding a LH Miles & More card and will continue to fly via FRA/MUC just to get the miles credited.

The last decade CO had a maximum of two daily flights in Germany so the OnePass program is not used that often over here. That is a huge disadvantage for CO in the German market.
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark Svc!

Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:31 pm

The Lufthansa M&M program sucks big time, especially for members who do not reside in the US. Since Continental is now a member of Skyteam, passengers can also earn mileage and status on Delta, Northwest, KLM and Air France. Since Lufthansa's Berlin service is very limited, I fail to see that "huge disadvantage" for Continental.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Continental To Start Berlin - New York/Newark

Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:04 am

Tristar500 asked: Do you think that CO could operate this route profitably with only 130 passengers per flight even in a peak month?

Using CO's 752 172-passenger configuration, 130 pax is a 75.6% load factor. CO's breakeven load factor for August was 78%; thus, adjusting for length of haul, 75.6% is most probably profitable.

Load factors are only part of the calculation; profit depends equally on the fares paid. If the front cabin sells well and the winglet program meets its goals, profits are a sure thing.

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