aa777jr
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AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:25 am

How in the world can AA be the largest airlines operating and they only serve one (NRT) destination in the Pacific. That blows me away!!!  Smile NW, UA, CO, and DL even go more places. Can anyone explain why AA is so slow to move into the Far East?

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:31 am

Last I checked, Hawaii was in the Pacific (and that's not even counting the Western states)  Laugh out loud


...and while Delta does serve one more Asian destination that AA, it's not Pacific.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ssides
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:52 am

Just out of curiosity, what is the other Asian destination that DL serves but AA doesn't?

And remember, AA has interest in Asia ... it served KIX and TPE, but due to the Asian economy and other issues, couldn't make either work profitably.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
prosa
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:56 am

Just out of curiosity, what is the other Asian destination that DL serves but AA doesn't?

BOM
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
aa777flyer
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:28 am

Fairly simple answer. AA does not have the government authority to fly beyond NRT. This is why AA is so hot to get the ORDPVG route as they feel it would be a stepping stone to fly further east from NRT. AA has route authority also for DFWKIX and HNLNRT, however DFWKIX was not profitable and HNLNRT does not have the proper time slot where the route would be profitable. AA has asked for authority to fly to NGO from ORD, DFW and LAX but was denied the authority by the Japanese government.

And last time I checked DL only served NRT once daily from ATL?
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iowa744fan
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:37 am

Plus, DL only serves each of those cities once a day (777 ATL-NRT and 763 CDG-BOM) with their own aircraft. In terms of flights and seats, AA has more service to Asia than Delta (JFK-NRT, ORD-NRT, DFW-NRT 12X a week, LAX-NRT, and SJC-NRT...all with 777s). Plus they got the rights to fly from HNL to NRT.


As for why they are so far behind UA and NW, both of those carriers enjoy 5th freedom rights from Japan which plays a large part. NW particularly has taken advantage of this since from their Tokyo hub. The fifth freedom rights allows them to sell tickets to locals (up to a certain percentage of the plane...not sure how much...there is a limit, right?) who only want to fly within Asia. UA can also do this on its routes from Tokyo, as well as on its routes from HKG to SIN and SGN (future route). AA, DL, and CO don't have this advantage, although CO is allowed to codeshare on some NW routes...perhaps DL too now. CO does have an "Asian" hub in Guam though via its Continental Micronesia brand. Outside of this, their services are quite limited as well...mainly just to NRT and HKG. AA has the rights to fly into cities like HKG, TPE, etc., but they have either suspended service or have not started it.

Also, in case you are curious, the fifth freedom rights possessed by UA and NW were the result of negotiations at the end of WW2 that gave these rights to NW and Pan Am. When UA bought Pan Am's Pacific network, they inheritted these rights. Flying Tigers was also given 5th freedom, but that is now possessed by Fed Ex due to their takeover of FT.

However, if you look at American in Latin America and Europe, they are much stronger than either UA or NW (if you ignore codeshares).
 
aa777jr
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:26 am

Iowa744fan,

Thanks much for the information, please provide a link where I can read about the "5th Freedom" rights. If AA has rights to fly into HKG and TPE why haven't they resumed at least one flight a day out of SJC to those destinations. How did UA and NW get so much freedom in Asia to fly? Does the Chinese government frown on AA because it does say "American" Any info would help me.

Cheers,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:33 am

You can google for fifth freedoms.

AA isn't operating HKG and TPE because they don't believe they can sustain the routes at this point, and certainly not from SJC. They only operated to TPE very briefly from there, and they've cut their feed significantly.

N
 
NYCAAer
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RE: AA Flying West

Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:42 pm

The revenue on SJC-TPE was frighteningly low. I used to look at the yields before they removed it from SABRE, and I've never seen any other transpacific route AA operates with such low yields. I doubt AA would return to the SJC-TPE market. They may serve TPE in the future as a tag-on flight from some other Asian station, if authority were granted.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:49 am

AA might be able to sustain a service to HKG from ORD, but from what I have heard, the SJC "hub" just does not have the level of passengers to feed into flights to make the TPE route viable. I am a little surprised given the size of the Asian population in the entire Bay Area. You would think that many in the southern Bay Area would prefer going through SJC instead of driving to SFO.

Also, as I mentioned, Pan Am and NW were granted their 5th freedom rights after WW2 in agreements signed with Japan...when Japan couldn't really say much. UA acquired these rights in 1985 when they purchased the Pacific operations of Pan Am.

The US does have open skies with Singapore, however having a hub that far south would not really work for AA. I am not sure of the extent of the agreement between HKG and the US. UA has fifth freedom on SIN and SGN (and I believe BKK when it was operated). I am not sure how much rights they had for local traffic (it was more limited) when they did the DEL runs. I know that those flights were restricted a lot more. There was a big fuss when UA wanted to switch the aircraft from a 763 to a 744 back in the 90s. They used to park a 763 all day long at Kai Tak since the aircraft would arrive from LHR and DEL in the morning and then not leave again until early evening. The 744 that arrived from LAX would park at Kai Tak all night. By changing things, the 744 kept flying to DEL and then turned around and arrived back in HKG to do the flight to LAX, thus keeping the plane in the air and making money. However, the Indian and HK government complained and tried to limit UA to only being able to sell the equivalent number of seats as on a 763. Not sure how they eventually worked it out. Anyway, HKG has some rights with US carriers. I don't believe that S.Korea has any, but given their desire to boost Incheon as an Asian hub, and its location up north like NRT, it could have potential is AA could work out deals with them. However, AA does not codeshare with either Korean or Asiana, so that could be difficult.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:22 am

AA isn't operating HKG and TPE because they don't believe they can sustain the routes at this point

Not exactly true on the former. The reasons that ORD-HKG is a no-go for now is pilot contract/availability using the 772ER. Should see it launch next yr.




HKG has some rights with US carriers. I don't believe that S.Korea has any

um, S.Korea has an Open Skies agreement with the USA  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
aa777jr
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:22 am

If I suggested a flight to SJC-TPE the only reason I did was its a shorter distance than any other hubs AA has (cept maybe SFO or LAX) the flight could originate in DFW or ORD and connect.

A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:25 am

AA doesnt have an SFO hub; and anyways, SJC is an QSF co-terminal along with SFO.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
kkfla737
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:34 am

If I'm not mistaken, AA had some Pacific routes prior to the 1975 route swap with Pan Am which gave AA some Carribean routes in exchange for AA's Pacific routes.
 
tcttx
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:45 am

Doesn't AA still have authority for the SEA/BOS-NRT routes? Though AA discontinued SEA-NRT and never began BOS-NRT, doesn't AA still have the authority (though not the slots)?
 
jmy007
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:19 am

I believe AA still holds Stl-Nrt route autority as well (From TW)
But I don't think we will ever see that happen.
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iowa744fan
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RE: AA Flying West

Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:39 am

um, S.Korea has an Open Skies agreement with the USA

I stand corrected. Thanks ConcordeBoy. I guess that AA or someone could start a hub there, but I doubt it would be close to as profitable as NRT.

AA777jr,

In your defense, AA also operated SJC-TPE at one time, so your listing is perfectly valid in my opinion.