keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:06 pm

Looking at Amadeus, these are the flights that I can find between Brazilian regional airports and Europe.

TP : Fortaleza-LIS, Daily
TP : Recife-LIS, Daily
TP : Salvador-LIS, Daily
TP : Natal-LIS, 3x a week
24 flights a week

RG : Fortaleza-LIS, 2x a week
RG : Natal-LIS, 2x a week
RG : Salvador-LIS, 1x a week
5 flights a week

UX : Salvador-MAD, 3x a week
3 flights a week

(there are of course, other charter services)

My question is, why are there so few flights operated by Varig to Europe via these regional cities? Lack of demand? Lack of aircraft? There are a host of daily services by TP but they are not codeshared with RG. It would be more convenient for northeastern Brazilians to fly with TP directly, and connect to their final european destination via LIS, rather than taking RG's service via GRU/GIG.

Brazil is rather similar to Australia in the sense that both are huge countries with the population density is highest in the far south in particular, and along the eastern coast. For QF, it makes more sense for passengers from PER, CNS and DRW to connect in SIN rather than in SYD. Can the same principal be applied to RG? Taking into account the distance between Brazil and Europe, a midpoint stop (a SIN equivalent) is not necessary, but it would be useful for connecting passengers from the northeast. Of course a much simpler solution would be just adding more RG direct services to Europe from the northeast. Since my knowledge of Latin American aviation is very limited, I'm not sure if such a move is in the best interest of RG.

Looking forward to hear your views  Smile

[Edited 2004-10-08 14:12:46]
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:42 pm

TAP is joining star alliance and they have already announced to codeshare with RG, although it's not clear on which routes. But I guess they will a least cooperate on all routes between Brazil and Portugal. Maybe there will also be an onward codeshare to other destinations in Europe and Brazil.
 
keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:50 pm

Oh I complete forgot about TAP's immenent entrance into Star Alliance. Anyhow, these are all fairly new developments - why aren't there enough feed between Brazil regional airports and Europe way before TAP was even thought of joining the alliance?
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:19 am

I am not an expert for Brazilian economy, but as far as I know the north-east is one of the poorest parts of Brazil and I heard the expression 'hunger-belt'. More than half of the population and even more of the economic power is based 500km around Sao Paulo.
There are some points of interest for tourists in the north east and therefore some charter flights operate from Natal and Salvadaor de Bahia to Europe. But most of the traffic from outside Sao Paulo is ethnic traffic to Portugal and therefore of lower yield.

Please correct me if I am completely wrong in any case my Brazilien friends.
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:29 am

GRU is why the regionals don't so so well. SSA (Salvador) is the exception.

GRU is a real-modern city, and - with no offense to Brazil - the rest of the country exhibits a lot of characteristics of a 3rd world country.

I mean, Brazil is one of like 8 countries that make airplanes - but it is also a very large and diverse country.

I've been to SSA and GRU both.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6173
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:39 am

Not the rest of the country, just some regions (okay, large regions but still). There are many cities in Brazil other than Sao Paulo that are really modern, advanced, prosperous to a certain extent and, in addition, beautiful.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:34 am

Hi KEno!! It's a real pleasure to say hello to you  Smile How are you?
The Brazil's North-East is a very beautiful area, with peaceful and amazings beaches but unfortunatelly, that area is not very developed from a economic point of view.In fact, RG have removed all flights (on B767-200) between Recife and Madrid. Now, like you say, UX is the only one in having services between MAD and North-East of Brazil.
With the TP flights to Lisbon is enough (+ some RG services),at the moment, to cover demand from Europe to N.E. Brazil
And I agree with you, it's possible to save a lot of time if you avoid the stop at GIG or GRU.I think TP can to have a good ratio of pax to N.E. since they nearly have no other airlines to compete.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:01 am

Anxebla, I'm very well thanks  Smile I was at first surprised to see why TP has nearly 5x more flights than RG between the northeast and Europe. Seems like TP is the 'official' intercontinental carrier for the northeast, while shouldn't it be more of RG's 'duty' to promote tourism in that particular region of Brazil? Perhaps European charters have also eased the need for RG to serve more direct services, whereby nonstop service from Germany/UK/Scandinavia/etc are plentiful to cater for package holidaymakers.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:18 am

Hi, guys

Some facts:

- It is important to recall that RG is originally from South Brazil (VARIG means Viacao Aerea Rio Grande do Sul), so its base is in the city of Porto Alegre (POA), the capital of the Sourthernmost state of Rio Grande do Sul. So RG has a natural tendency to provide better connection/services to the cities in South/Southeast Brazil. For example, RG operates direct flights from POA to CDG and AMS. Currently RG has its administration both in POA and GIG, and GRU is its most important hub;

- You are right, Brazil is a continental country, and therefore with considerable socio-economic disparities. The South and Southeast is the richest region, with livings standards similar to any developed country.The North and Northeast are less developed, with travel largely based on tourism. It is suffice to mention that GRU region alone produces 45% of Brazil GDP. Sao Paulo is the industrial and financial capital of Latin America; and the world's second largest city. This fact speaks for itself!

- It is fair to say that TP is more tourist-orinted than business-oriented. RG on the contrary has a significant customer base of business people. So it gives priority to its GRU hub, with its high yield, and strong business and first class demand.

- TP joined start alliance and will start operating codesare with RG from November on ALL its route to NE Brazil, GRU and GIG. You can beat that this will produce a boost on TP services to NE Brazil, as all RG FF in NE Brazil will start flying TP to avoid wasting time with a connection in GRU. LIS will become a major hub between Brazil and Europe;

- There have been rumours that TP intends to buy a stake in RG, backed with a loan from the Brazilian Development Bank. This would be part of the restructure process of RG. Note: current TP CEO Mr. Fernando Pinto was RG CEO about 8 years ago, and knows RG and te Brazilian market as nobody else. This also explains why TP has so many flights to Brazil! Before Mr. Pinto joined TP as CEO, TP only had routes to GRU and GIG. Mr. Pinto is doing a great job. The routes to NE Brazil proved profitable (although largely tourist-oriented)and TP is back in blue since last year;

- Note that TAM started to operate the first direct flight from the US to NE Brazil (MIA-SSA, which then continues to GRU. This is a day flight, which supplements TAM night flights between MIA-GRU);

- NE Brazil is reasonable served by charter airlines. For example, from AMS there are direct flights to FOR (Martinair), NAT and BPS (Holland Excel);

(note: you may have noticed a significant increase in traffic in GIG/Galeao, Rio de Janeiro International over the last weeks and more to come! The Brazilian Aviation Authority (DAC) decided to keep the smaller SDU/Santos Dummont, Rio de Janeiro Domestic only for the shuttle service between SDU and CGH/Sao Paulo Domestic. People in Brazil preferred to use SDU istead of GIG for domestic flights because SDU is centrally located, in the heart of Rio de Janeiro. So all domestic flights from Rio now operate from GIG!)





[Edited 2004-10-09 18:23:34]
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:43 am

KEno...
despite Brazil is, really, a beautiful country, it's only is very popular like holiday destination in Portugal and, sometimes, Spain, Argentine and Chile as well.There's a few charters flights between Europe and N.E. With that very seasonal charters, TP's flights(on A-310) +RG's flights demand is totaly cover.Last week, I found out about RG removed all services between N.E. and Madrid and I was a total surprise for me  Crying
It can be due to the current bad moment of Varig, cos that flights have been working during many years, it was 2/3 times per week and on B762, which it was not difficult to find it.
I would like to go N.E. cos I only Know Southern Brazil (the Iguazú Falls' zone)


AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:06 am

Anxebla:

If you are in Spain try going to NE Brazil with Air Europa, it has 5 x week service direct from MAD to SSA (Salvador, Bahia), with really good prices.
Air Madrid also started operating 4 x week flights from MAD to GIG (Rio de Janeiro).
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:18 am

Yes, I know it, Hardiwv... but, I think I will go (when it can be possible) via LIS
cos I would like to go to Fortaleza/Recife area.

By the way, welcome to a.net!!!  Smile
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
mia
Posts: 813
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:40 am

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airp

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:17 am

My godmother works for Varig and she tells me that Varig's flights to Portugal are the worst grossing flights they have, they actually loose money on some flights to Portugal. She has access to the date we dont and she says its because of that.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:25 am

MIA:

Don't think the info about RG flights to LIS is accurate. RG apparently is using 777 to LIS, and I doubt the level of RG service to LIS would be different from any other destination.
 
LX23
Posts: 337
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:54 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:57 pm

Hardiwv: Actually, they have switched to a mix of MD11s and 767s for the next few months (the 777 will get thrown in once or twice, though). However, you are right in that RGs LIS flights are not flights where RG loses money. Got this info from RG LIS station staff. Data is probably a bit more accurate than what MIA gets on LIS  Big grin btw, welcome to A.net!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: RG European Services From Brazil Regional Airports

Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:13 pm

LX23,

Thans! You're right, RG used the 777 only for a short while on the route LIS-GRU-GIG. Now it is using the 767. But more changes are expected in the future, as RG will start codesharing with TP all routes between Portugal and Brazil from Nov. TP will join Star Alliance from Jan. 2005.

Hardiwv