PDPsol
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:14 am

Is LP is the most harrassed company in Peru? See the link below; a court in the southern city of Arequipa, handed down in June but only passed to aviation authorities last week, found LanPeru in breach of rules stipulating how much of its capital, aircraft and staff should be Peruvian.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/10/1097180451.html

This drama is about as bizzare as the OJ Simpson trial, involving looney Peruvian nationalists and other not-so-sane individuals.

On a separate note, NuevoContinente, the successor airline to AeroContinente, has been sold AGAIN. This time, N6's 'new shareholders' (the carrier's employees) have sold out to some company called Vuela Peru (Fly Peru), an aviation consultancy firm controlled by the Professional Air group.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/10/1097184645.html

All I can say is: WTF is up the WACKY civil aviation sector in Peru?
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2635
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:11 am

In this article it states that some government officials are trying to prevent LAN Peru's license from being pulled. They state that having Lan Peru grounded would hurt people from getting around and from cargo getting around.
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh69028_2004-10-07_21-51-18_n07484164_newsml

[Edited 2004-10-08 18:13:17]
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2635
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:20 am

WOOps, i guess i posted the same article as Pdpsol.

Well if the government decides to ground LAN Peru I hope the Peruvian government notices how much the carrier is needed. I bet the Nuevo Continente people are jumping with joy that this is going to happen.
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:52 am

Hmmm... Gee, this makes a lot of sense, "let's ground our nation's second-largest carrier under the pretense of violating some ridiculous 'Peruvian content' laws and initiate a firestorm of nationalist controversy!!"

That's right, that's the ticket!

LP offers the Peruvian traveling public a much-needed service. It is about time tired, old nationalist policies that simply damage the societies they claim to help were thrown in the dustbin where they belong.
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:08 am

This all sounds ridiculous. Nuevo Continente's state is actually worse than I expected; their only 757 has been leased back, and all three of their 767s are grounded and up for sale. This leaves them with just:

4 x B727-100s,
7 x B737-200s
3 x F28-4000s

However you look at it, it's not much of an airline. ALL their aircraft have few cycles remaining, and if the airline is unable to operate anything remotely young or middle-aged, then they will go down the plug-hole.

The grounding of LAN Peru is clearly a last ditch and desperate resort. I still find it hard to believe that in the last decade we've witnessed the end of Aero Peru, Americana de Aviación, Faucett Peru, Imperial Airways and, one way or another, Aviandina, "the airline that never was." TANS Peru is no rival to either LAN or TACA--they are a strictly domestic airline flying 5 ancient B737-200s.

It has to be said, Chile is not blessed with the easiest of neighbours for LAN to start and run subsidiaries. Peru is impossible, Argentina is difficult (courtesy of a calamitous penguinoid) and Bolivia is out of the question. Perhaps LAN should have focused more on Ecuador...

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:34 am

Hello LVZXV,

...courtesy of a calamitous penguinoid...

Hehehehe! As always your cheeky comments have me in stitches, rolling on the floor in laughter!

I completely agree with your observations regarding our Chilean brothers; all their neighbors appear to have it out for them! I mean, who would have thought that in the 21st century, Peruvians and Bolivians would be ranting and raving non-stop about the 'evil' Chileans.

As we say here in the U.S.: "c'mon.. gimme a break, enough already!!"
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:42 am

I mean, who would have thought that in the 21st century, Peruvians and Bolivians would be ranting and raving non-stop about the 'evil' Chileans.
Can' speak for Bolivians, but we've been doing that for 200 years ...

As we say here in the U.S.: "c'mon.. gimme a break, enough already!!"
If everyone thought like Americans, what kind of world would this be? This is not an attack on Americans (I live in the U.S.). It simply means that Peru is a country that has always done things its way, hence its current state of chaos and lack of direction.
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:18 am

These Peruvian people are insane...I saw yesterday on the news that they burnt a guy alive for stealing a gas pipe. Why would the land LP? N6 sucks big time!!!
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:36 am

Is LP is the most harrassed company in Peru?

Not really, so was Lucchetti before (by the way, also Chilean company!!!). Yes, sometimes we feel, or we are sure that this is not about business, but as a cheap way of some people to gain popularity. After all, to fight Chile sells in some corners of our South America.

As for Lan Peru, too bad to hear that, and too bad for LAN for not preventing or do something to avoid such situation. if they know all Peru's regulation, they should add extra efforts to be perfectly clear from these clouds.

It's a pitty Peruvian authorities don't realize LAN is the best thing they have had in years, and they don't recognize they need LAN since Peru hasn't been able to develop an own carrier. And it's also an aweful signal for foreing investment in Peru, showing that corruption also rules business.

As we say here in the U.S.: "c'mon.. gimme a break, enough already!!"
Yeap! we are saying that a lot! the most I regret is that Peru and Chile should be friends, and leave behind any hurt from the past. But this doesn't help, as it doesn't the Peruvian guy murdered at the Chilean border by Chilean army... some day we'll understand!

And ZXV: don't worry, Argentina does not deserve K forever!

Regards )( Arcano

in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:57 am

Arcano:

I wouldn't worry about LAN Peru. Darwin will ensure their survival. But yes, LP could have prevented this "misunderstanding". From outside, the Bermudian-registrations of the A320s seem a tad suspicious. LP's 737s were originally Peruvian-registered, and Aero Continente Chile's aircraft all wore the CC-reg. You might have explained the reason for this before, Arcano, but I really cannot remember.
From my experience of Peruvians, I found they always had something to moan about, but that awful fog and absence of rain gives them plenty of reason to. In some ways, they (limeños at least) resemble their Argentine counterparts, and both countries have experienced similar levels of corruption and political incompetence.
I know you've said countless times that LAN and much of Chile is business-minded, i.e. not interested in cheap patriotism, populist stunts or nationalist ravings. To bad Peru isn't the same...

Argentina's predicament stems from K being the de jure leader and Duhalde the de facto. D controls K. Can you think of anything worse?

Saludos a todos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
B757200
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:58 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:16 am

It has to be said, Chile is not blessed with the easiest of neighbours for LAN to start and run subsidiaries. Peru is impossible, Argentina is difficult (courtesy of a calamitous penguinoid) and Bolivia is out of the question. Perhaps LAN should have focused more on Ecuador...

Uh, this may sound stupid but, have they considered Venezuela? (I'm just asking).
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:58 pm

LP's 737s were originally Peruvian-registered

So??? does it really matters???? take a look!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Lebeda



Do you think any of those Chilean guys in Puerto Montt realized that the Lan Chile aircraft they were flying was not registred "CC"???
I think passengers (regular ones, not A.netters) just don't care, and most of them have no idea what is CC, OP, LV or N...
Actually, when I was in SCL last week I watched a 763 with CC registration (not sure, but I think it was CEK) and a Peruvian Flag on the tail. Do you think any, just anynpd cared?
Do you think that anybody actually thought good of Aerocontinente Chile for registring CC? No!

What I want to say is that you will always be able to find twisted arguments for proving any point if you want. And please, we Chileans certenly are not saints, we care about nationalisms and rivalry, the only difference is that we use to be very cold for business and purchase, and there the nationalism is secondary...

B757200, bienvenido!. I'm not sure if Venezuela came to LAN's mind, I think they did, but clearly the priority right now is Argentina. If we are positive and think this will happen, probably Colombia and Venezuela should be on the list. Brazil is too huge and there is no reason for trying to attack TA in Central America while there is room still in South America.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:48 pm

Hey, if they get their license pulled, does Chile still have 5th freedom to fly SCL-LIM-LAX, or will they have to go it non-stop (no problem for the 763s or A340s)? Also, could this mean fewer choices to FLY2LIM =)? I love the way you incorporate your name into your posts, I could not resist.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:42 pm

As much as Lan Peru is or was the best airline flying in Peru, why does LAN 'need' to get its hand everywhere? Like it isn't enough with Lan Dominicana, Lan Ecuador, Lan Peru.

Having only 2 dominant airlines in ALL of Latin America, isn't that (besides boring) not good for competition?
 
Ratypus
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:26 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:53 pm

Does anyone agree that perhaps LAN's policy of unifying their fleet (LanChile and LanPeru) under the single - pretty Chilean - LAN brand, might be hurting LAN's image in Peru. Maybe a less pointed merger would have served them better - after all, they've got the equipment (their A320's are genius) and the punctuality etc to really work in Peru. LAN was my new best friend when I went this summer!
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:31 pm

Arcano:

Un malentendido real! I was referring to the legal issues! Of course, few give a damn what those hyphenated letters that rarely spell a word on the fuselage signify. That's not the point. The Courts DO care about the registration of an aircraft. I know it is not the only and maybe not the main reason why they are giving LAN a hard time, but I don't doubt that it's one of the reasons.

The picture you show me is different. LAN is Chilean and Puerto Montt is in Chile. The aircraft wore a Chilean-reg (CC-COO), and will probably wear it again if LAN choose to sub-lease a different aircraft to Peru. LAN Peru is a Chilean carrier operating in a foreign country; there's a difference.

What I want to say is that you will always be able to find twisted arguments for proving any point if you want. And please, we Chileans certenly are not saints, we care about nationalisms and rivalry, the only difference is that we use to be very cold for business and purchase, and there the nationalism is secondary...

Obvio! But the law is forever finding or fabricating twisted arguments to prove anything. I know Chileans are not saints, but I think the questions being asked are more "what is LAN Peru doing that we do not know about?" What's behind that shiny corporate image? How did they grab a larger slice of the Peruvian market than TACA? Why these sporadic legal problems that keep arising? Why are LAN accepted at times and not at others? To ensure your survival in such a hostile climate as Peru, you don't play by the rules. This isn't cricket.
You may not have the answers, but I'm sure many of us would like such questions answered. I think few in this forum have an axe to grind with LAN; we're just curious.

I look forward to reading whatever you have to say.

Miamix707:

Having only 2 dominant airlines in ALL of Latin America, isn't that (besides boring) not good for competition?

I think Aerolíneas/Austral, Aeromexico, Avianca, Copa, Cubana, GOL, LAB, Mexicana, Pluna, TAM and TAME are holding their own, don't you think?

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:30 am

LVZXV,

'Holding their own' is the diplomatic version of 'just by a thread'.  Smile

Avianca just survived a mortal blow and isn't out of the woods by any means.
Cubana... Who knows what will happen when reform begins to creep into Cuba.
Pluna needs to see Uruguay's economy less dependent on Argentina's fate.
AR is better, but still not well. Some shock and it could choak back to a coma.

I don't know much about the others financial situation, but out of that list of 11, we may have only 7 in three to five years...
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:53 am

Hola Derico,

It's true, many of said carriers are hanging in there on a thread, but in that sense you can't single out Latin American carriers--so too are Alitalia, Swiss, United, US Airways etc. etc. Hell, even LAN have shelved some of their grandiose schemes, like some of their A320 and A340 orders/options. Another 9/11-style attack and no doubt the skies over Latin America and the entire world for that matter will be hauntingly empty. For now, AM, CM, EQ, G3, JJ and you could say LB and MX are doing quite ok. Yes that could all change, but I'm talking in the here and now.

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:58 am

Hola ZXV,

Well the topic was latin carriers, so that's why I singled them out. I know what the state of US and European aviation is.

But the whole entirely other issue of 'Aviation is on it's way to become the 21st century version of Bus service' (which i most certainly believe and have for years), is for a whole entirely different thread...  Smile
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
B757200
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:58 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:00 am

B757200, bienvenido!

Gracias Arcano!  Smile

Having only 2 dominant airlines in ALL of Latin America, isn't that (besides boring) not good for competition?

Regarding Venezuela, I think it would be nice to have an airline like LAN so local airlines might be forced to offer a better service.
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:03 am

Miamix707 why does LAN 'need' to get its hand everywhere?
I will answer with another question: Why does Procter & Gamble 'need' to get its hand out of Cincinati???
Answer: BECAUSE IT'S A BUSINESS, and most business are about earning money and grow (in a very simple scheme). Lan Chile had no more room to grow in Chile, P&G had no more room to grow in USA, so they jump. It's nothing about countries, flags, domain; it's about target markets. Period

ZXV:

"what is LAN Peru doing that we do not know about?"
Running a healthy airline perhaps? It's obvious that it's an art not many in the world know how to do it.

What's behind that shiny corporate image?
A shiny airline

How did they grab a larger slice of the Peruvian market than TACA?
Because they are better, as Lan Chile was always better ranked than Taca, Nica, Lacsa, etc. LP also had the fortune of appealing OW members, TA Peru didn't.

Why these sporadic legal problems that keep arising? / Why are LAN accepted at times and not at others?
I have an answer, but I will pass this time

You may not have the answers, but I'm sure many of us would like such questions answered
What is your guess? Bribes? Nationalism?


***************************************
As a complement information:

"El Mercurio" yesterday published more information. Peruvian Government had restrained this judge's order for LP to keep flying. LP currently carries about 4000 pax within Peru and 1500 abroad every day, so they see that if LP is grounded now, Peru will collapse, and about 10000 people wouldn't be allowed to go/leave Peru.
Peruvian Government has the obligation to ensure aviation to its people (it's considered a Public Service), so till there is an end in this, the order won't be effective.

A newspaper of Lima says that the end of Lan Peru is imminent, and at leat 3 airlines (some new companies) would take the routes/rights.
Meanwhile, Lan Peru keeps denying all charges.

We'll see...

)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:52 pm

what does the health of other smaller airlines with less routes have to do with it?

Taca takes you pretty much everywhere you need to go in Central America and LAN is trying to do that in South America. Even to the Caribbean (Lan Dominicana). More than 1 or 2 airlines mean more business opportunities are created and fares likely to be more competitive.

If LAN doesn't have any more room to grow in Chile that's too bad. With the not so healthy airline industry at the moment that could likely see the disappearance of a few more airlines, in 5-10 years time LAN could be the only major airline around in S. America if they got their way (I'm sure they'd like to be right now)
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:28 pm

Miamix707:

I get your point, but I think G3 and JJ will emarge as dominant players too. They are based in a country with a massive domestic market, and through PZ have excellent coverage of the Southern Cone too.

LB might prove a difficult airline to conquer, as they now dominate Bolivia and offer excellent international choices. Though small, LB is not under threat from LAN as Bolivia is reluctant to open its door to Chile.

TACA will continue to dominate Central America (and who knows, maybe CU will join in the future), LAN the west coast of South America, G3 and JJ the east. AR is the one to keep an eye on, as they could go ether way.

The question is, WHERE can LAN continue to expand? Argentina, Bolivia and Colombia will all prove tougher than Peru, for sure. Paraguay? Uruguay? Venezuela?

Regards,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:45 am

in 5-10 years time LAN could be the only major airline around in S. America

Wrong again. If that would ever happen, we would be talking about a MONOPOLY. Since the size of all South American population does not sustain any natural monopoly (a concept specially developed by economists), the existence of 1 big player would be a welcome card for any company to set competition.

The size of South America won't allowed that, as ZXV said, JJ or even AR if they keep doing well would be the natural competitors. Following my former example, no matter how much P&G expands all over the world, Unilever is always there sharing the market. Or Carrefour and Walmart, or Exxon and Shell...

Again, it's all about economics, so it's in that sence and no other that the subject should be analysed.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:19 am

Arcano:

You can also learn from history. If South Americans could never unite as a continent, then they certainly won't accept a single major airline. There is too much national pride at stake, and if all else fails, you can always count on a South American government to rescue a moribund airline.

I think I'll stick to my forecast. Some airlines may disappear soon--AeroSur, American Falcon, Inter, Nuevo Continente, TANS Peru, Varig, Vasp, some Venezuelan flying trash etc. but there will always be others...

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
av757
Posts: 599
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:27 am

Lan is probably not apreciated very much in the other Latin countries when it comes to their hiring practices and large diferences in pay scale compared to their Chilean counterparts, also in the case of Ecuador and Peru a lot of inconsistencies exist in the exploitation rights of their routes within the region.

So finally the Peruvians woke up to reality!!!

AV757
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:37 pm

AV757

That should be the most nonsense argument I've heard in this thread. What's the point? Do you have any statistic that sustain your statement?

I mean, I can think that LAN personnel abroad should be managers, not staff (staff are hired locally). In the whole world/company/business, staff earns less than managers. I work for a dutch company, and obviously Dutch employees (and some mexicans) get more money than I do, and I understand that and I don't hate the Netherlands for that.

Besides, to take any person out of his country is usually rewarded in salary, so it's obvious he should be paid more under this concept.

Again, what's your point?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:14 pm

What a sad day for LAN or even more so for Peru. And when I speak for Peru I mean for the general flying public not the politicians.
In a way I must admit that I have always been critical of the practises that where used by LA in Peru. Irrespective of the flight numbers, alot of the flights are operated by LA (Chile) planes and crew. We all know that LP merely code shares on the respective services. Maybe this is what AV757 means, and maybe these practises 'peed' of the Peruvian goverment. But I am sure there was more to this.
Having spoken to some LP crew in LAX they do feel that they sometimes get a raw deal. Especially when cross crewing takes place.eg: Why should LA crew get more moeny than LP crew, when they are doing the exact same job? But hey, LA is not the only carrier that does this. QF is a perfect example of off-shore labour. And the issue here is not "crewing problems", but an issue all the same.
I doubt very much that LA will become the only dominant player in South America. As LVZXV stated, some airlines may disappear but it does not mean that the local goverments will open the doors for LA to operate in their own back yards. Brazil and to a certain extent Argentina (for now) come to mind.
Either way, I wonder what LA's next move will be. As strong as they are, I am sure that they will not take this lying down!
What will happen to all those staff that worked for LP?? Sad day for Peru!

 
av757
Posts: 599
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:07 pm

I have nothing against the Lan System, it is the way they hire and pay locals both in Ecuador and Peru, which in a way is discriminatory versus the way things are done for employees in Chile.
AV757
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:03 pm

Wrong again. If that would ever happen, we would be talking about a MONOPOLY. Since the size of all South American population does not sustain any natural monopoly (a concept specially developed by economists), the existence of 1 big player would be a welcome card for any company to set competition

My friend, first of all, nobody mentioned LAN and 'natural monopoly' in the same sentence. Yes it's a term often used in microeconomics, of course it was developed by economists. I suggest you go read what that is before trying to sound all smart mentioning a term that has no relation to the subject at hand  Big grin The size of the S. American population has nothing to do with it either. I'm not sure if your last sentence is an explanation of the term or what, but it's not what it means and in fact the opposite happens. Telephone companies, energy providers etc are sectors that lend themselves to be natural monopolies. The size of S. America has nothing to do with that concept and even less when we're talking about an airline.


If the existence of 1 big player were that appealing for any airline company to set up competition..tell me how many airlines in Chile (in the most stable Latin American economy) are sprouting up asking permission to fly to Miami for example? Lan Chile has already taken over the next biggest Chilean all-cargo carrier -Fast Air and the next biggest domestic/international passenger one, -Ladeco and that was back when Lan Chile wasn't even LAN yet or had any international subsidiaries.

I didn't explicitly say "they will be" the only majors. Nobody here can predict the future. The statement had a dose of exaggeration to it but hey, with the leftist governments of Brazil, Venezuela, Ecuador?, etc any major intl carriers -both government-owned or private, already have a less than an ideal environment in which to thrive. If LAN got their way and you know they'd love to, there is a possibility (even remote if you wanted to call it that) given the trend for consolidation and other factors like the one mentioned above, plus corruption, weak economies etc, that we could see LAN being the dominant player in S.America within a decade, even if some airlines like JJ and AR are still around.

The size of South America won't allowed that, as ZXV said, JJ or even AR if they keep doing well would be the natural competitors. Following my former example, no matter how much P&G expands all over the world, Unilever is always there sharing the market. Or Carrefour and Walmart, or Exxon and Shell...

How could you compare P&G with Airlines?  Nuts The nature and competition in the airline sector is too different to attempt to compare it with a consumer goods company like P & G, not even with the gasoline companies. If you are trying to sound like some kind of economic scholar please invent better examples  Big grin lol...

Oh and btw, I've never heard of Carrefour but funny you mention Wal-Mart, as much as I admire it as a business, they are becoming a monopoly on smaller towns in the U.S. Whenever a new store opens the smaller ones there can't compete with it. It has also helped drive K-Mart almost out of business.



That should be the most nonsense argument I've heard in this thread. What's the point? Do you have any statistic that sustain your statement?

First you say to me wrong again, like your some expert or something. Then say say such a thing @AV757. Is not like you've stated any facts either. We understand that you're Chileno and with the typical national pride one sees here in a.net you defend LAN. But the reality is, not everybody outside of Chile is so happy and excited to see LAN take over as the national carrier everywhere they try to "expand" to; or become the dominant airline in a country other than Chile.

..so many experts in airlines and business here! it's amazing


As Arnold Schwarzenegger said: "don't be so economic girlie men"  Laugh out loud

 
SEQU
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:59 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:18 am

Hola Todos,

FWIW, as of 1st or 2nd quarter this year, all LP flights are dry leased, that is Peruvian Flight and Cabin Crews. Currently there are about 20 (plus or minus) pilots on loan from LanChile to LanPeru while Peruvian pilots finish their training, but legally, LanPeru is independant operationally. All of the operational control and responsibility for the flight is out of Lima and is under Peruvian Law.

LanPeru and LanEcuador are independant economically. They must perform financially under their own terms, with their routes to survive. This is why for the time being, LanDominicana is not flying, their route to the U.S. didn't make sense economically. LanChile has an operational and strategic say in LanPeru and LanEcuador, but it is their right, as they are major shareholders in each company. It is their right as shareholders to also recieve the financial benefits they are entitled to. As of right now, LanPeru has about 1000 employees and LanEcuador about 500 and growing. In addition to the service they are providing to the consumer in Peru and Ecuador, I wouldn't say that is such a bad thing.

LanEcuador still operates as a wet lease in flights to U.S. and Europe, although the Madrid flight is 80 to 90% of the time full Ecuadorean crew and in a short while will be completely a dry lease. The flights to the U.S. will be wet leased until Ecuador is CAT I for the FAA. When that happens, LanEcuador will have to operate as a dry lease completely as well. However, as of right now, not all the U.S. flights operate with Chilean flight crews. Many times they are mixed and many times they are Ecuadorean. Cabin crews for all LanEcuador flights are all Ecuadorean. LanEcuador's EZE flight is a dry lease operation, that is Ecuadorean Operational control and flight crews.....

My .02,

Espero comentarios,

Alfredo
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:00 am

That's why branding/marketing are sometimes so very important. Lan Chile ware lazy and never bothered to paint any aircraft in another color scheme more distinctly Peruvian, not even did they bother to add Peru titles to the widebodies. I understand the fleet commonality issue and the convenience of only one livery but still.. at least a small modification to the outside image would have helped (probably even more than renaming themselves LAN) but that is just my opinion.

regards,

 Smile
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 am

...ITDG

I think there are 2 ways for analysing this issue.

1. If Land Peru marketed itself as a "100% Peruvian Carrier" or "Flag Carrier" then you have a point there: LP cheated Peru by using Chilean aircraft and crew. Big mistake; it was an outrageous lie.

2. LP always admited they were Chilean and never appealed to the "Peruvian Pride" for selling tkts (as N6 did). Then there's nothing wrong, LP just filled the gap left by any truly national carrier of Peru.

Does anybody know which marketing strategy did they follow?

Actually, I'm not sure if I told this to you or not (maybe to ZXV), whatever, but the point is that someone on this site said once that LP would become the flag carrier for Peru. My answer is that LP will never be a proper flag carrier, because they are not Peruvian!
Peru deserves a good national carrier, not like N6 of course, and LP could be a perfect "second player", being part of the whole LAN network. The same for Ecuador, Argentina, Paraguay, Zimbabwe or any country LAN get to land; I think to pretend to be the national carrier of any foreign country is a mistake.
Specially in the case of Peru, I think Peruvians are a very proudly people, so they have the right, they deserve a truly 100% Peru airline as they want! all I say is that let's play fair. Any mistake made by LAN should be punished, as LAN is sometimes in Chile when they overcharge fares in routes with no competition (some of their prices are regulated).

____________________________________________
Miamix707: Again, I will have to go "all smart"  Insane

In my opinion, Chile in aviation behaves as a natural monopoly, this is why I think only one airline has been sustainably efficient - Lan Chile-, and competition for LAN have been a rotation of players: Ladeco, DAP, National, Avant, ALTA, Aerocontinente, SKY.

Since you seem to be very well informed about the differences between a Monopoly and a Natural Monopoly (where population/market has the size only for paying the high fix costs for one offerer) you'll understand why Chile hasn't been able to sustain 2 players in the market, and how come the the most stable Latin American economy (using your words) has only 1 airline reaching MIA. It's all about market size = population!

Again, South America as a whole has enough population to pay the fix costs for more players, so we are not talking about a natural monopoly, and this is why your idea of LAN becoming the only actor in the continent is, let's say, inaccurate. Market size (=population) has A LOT to do in monopolistic behavior of markets. This is why LAN prices are regulated by Chilean authorities where there is no competition.

If LAN got their way and you know they'd love to, there is a possibility ...that we could see LAN being the dominant player in S.America

Well, in this one we agree. LAN is indeed a very tough competitor, and sometimes too tough, remember we Chileans have lost some good services (as non stop SCL-JFK) since they almost expelled CO. I'm still praying they won't start to fly to Atlanta!

How could you compare P&G with Airlines?
Big news: they are both business, looking to get earnings over the investment. Who told you the opposite???
Never heard of Carrefour? French company, the world's second largest retailer, after Wallmart. Now I see how well informed are you for talking about business. You'll see, Consumer goods, Airlines, Electronics, etc. have different logistics, process, etc. But in a very simple way to say it they are looking for money, so they try to grow, expand.
Under these very rough principles you can compare them for making a point, as I did. You asked why LAN needed to get their hands abroad: the answer is simple, and shared by the companies I listed: EARN MONEY, GET RETURNS OVER INVESTMENT (ROI, a very key financial number...)

like your some expert or something
A 5 years degree in economics does give me some background for talking about business, as I mostly do in A.net. And yes, Chileno y Orgulloso! Besides, who said LAN wanted to be the most beloved company of the Americas, do you think LAN pretends to be perceived as a blessing? Come on! What National Carrier LAN took over? If LA had got to buy AV, and then change it to Lan Colombia, you'd be right, Colombians should have all the right to "hate" LAN as we do with IB that killed Ladeco. But LAN, so far have expanded based on setting new airlines, not taking control of national carriers and making them dissapear.

And don't take Chileans wrong, sometimes we are the most interested in having competition for LAN, which BTW sometimes forgets that it was born in Chile (can't wait for Aerolineas to finally take off).
****
Don't take it as a personal attack, I just replied your opinions. I see your point was LAN becoming dominant player and not the only one. But I was not the only one that took your words "only major" wrong.


Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:12 am

Arcano:
What is your opinnion on the entry into Argentina?
I mean with all these problems that have risen in Peru, do you think "K's" nationalist ways would allow for the same thing to happen there; and secondly would it still interest LA if it meant, Argentine crew, aircraft, re-investing in Argentina as opposed to taking all the money back to Chile?
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:00 am

Alfredo: Thanks for your excellent contribution. I didn't know some of the conditions for LP/LEc you posted.
BTW congratulations for the 2-0  Sad


Lan Chile ware lazy and never bothered to paint any aircraft in another color scheme more distinctly Peruvian
And why should they? the national carrier of Peru was Aerocontinente. LP is a private airline that doesn't fly for being flying ambassador.
Why are you so mad at LAN? jealous?


TBCITDG

What is your opinnion on the entry into Argentina

That's a tough one!

Well, I think dispite all the passion that LAN expansion creates (as you can see), there is one thing to say in their defense. They DO know how to run an Airline in South America, as almost no one do (JJ could be the exception to that, although IMO they have been too conservative expanding as an international carrier). As a matter of fact, I don't think there is any other airline in the continent with such a successful history for more than 75 years and counting. This is why it's so hard to compete them, this is their territory. This is why sometimes, let's say it, envy, comes to my mind when LAN is judged outside Chile.

But that's not all..., Lan was the national carrier of CHILE, a country placed in one of the most jealous continents on earth. When it comes to South America, partriotism, borders and history are usually mixed with comsumption, and even more in such a sensitive topic as aviation is.

ARGENTINA: I actually don't see K as the key disturbance in the whole Lan Argentina project. I think there would be a lot of reluctance from our eastern neighbours mostly due to the uncertain management of AR.
Lan would count with a lot of strenght (economically speaking) for competing in Argentina: better network, financial health, brand value/recognition, perfect logistics, etc. But AR would have a very important competitive advantage: the world "Argentina" on the fuselage.

I think if AR was a healthy airline, Lan in Argentina would be a perfect idea, we would have there a good national carrier and a perfect "2nd player": everybody wins, even more is Aerolineas del Sur ever take off in Chile. Maybe the traffic between both countries would become stronger, as in bordering countries in Europe, and we would see direct flights IQQ-ROS, CCP-BRC, PMC-EZE etc. Then Chile and Argentina could get a very strong position in world aviation... anyway.

I think LAN is not here for developing countries of caring much for people, as they are not in Chile. Again (I'm getting tired of repeating everytime), Lan Chile is a business, so if they land in Argentina, Peru, Bolivia or wherever it would be for earning money by providing excelent airline services. Again, everybody wins, but let's not look for althruistic goals in a private airline, please.

To see the subject as the evil/parasite corporation trying to take all the wealth from the hosting country is some cheap propaganda, as nobody in Chile has accused AR to try to do that by entering in our territory. How exited do you think the people of Punta Arenas are after hearing that AR plans to land there? they just can't wait!

Sometimes people accuses Chile of the opposite after the end of Aerocontinente Chile. I can tell you, I heard many arguments against them: money laundry, safety, service quality, etc. Absolutely NO ONE seriously used the argument "they are Peruvian", simply because it's not an argument.

But from another point of view: If N6 was a strong airline and "our" Lan Chile was weak and lose position in front of this foreigner, I think many voices would rise to claim about we shoud take care for "our" interests. So I think is natural for Argentina to be suspicious about LAN, they know AR would have a lot of troubles. The case is different in Peru and Ecuador: LAN just filled a gap, national carriers were not good enough (there is Tame, but without good international network). LAN replaced Aero Peru and Ecuatioriana. Not the case of Argentina. Add to that the historical differences between our countries and the fact that Peruvians tend to not like us.
It's not coincidence that this happens in Peru with Lan and not Taca. It's not coincidence that this is not happening in Ecuador.

I think Argentinian CONSUMERS would earn a lot letting LAN fly their flights, so I think the entrance of Lan Argentina would be great. K has a very ambiguous position towards Chile (one day we are brothers, the next he doesn't talk to us), so I see difficult to aprove LAN during his period, unless Southern Winds collapse and he faced a truly threat to air transport in the country; since Aregentine saving/economics is not the best at the time, he would have to admit and "outsource" the solution in the hands of a foreing company, as Argentina already did with SEPI/Marsans.

I think the best strategy would be to create a brand new Lan Argentina, since if they buy an existing carrier they would be the baddies that killed the defunct airline to turn it into Lan scheme. Although they would have to get the proper rights to fly abroad. To buy SWs or even AR would be bad idea. Maybe the tender of LAFSA would be the way.

I'm not sure if you know that our new Foreing Affairs minister had some trouble in the past with Argentina (he critizised the Government and the Peron's party), so some local press have published yesterday that this might disturb "the current negotiations with Argentina for LAN and Jumbo" (Jumbo is a supermarket that bought Disco chain in Argentina). So, apparently the subject is on the table and we don't handle all the relevan information.
_______________
You know what? I think after all the fuzz about buying American Falcon, LAN decided to follow a "silence" strategy and who knows, maybe they have things more advance that we know, but they won't make any announcement until a reality. Wisely I might say...

Do you have any thoughts? BTW are you Argentine?

)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:31 am

Chileno y Orgulloso? well good for you, nobody is criticizing Chile or anything, Most Chilenos i've met have been actually very polite and down to earth. And yes Chile has the most stable economy and I think the highest living standards in Latin America. General Pinochet knew what he was doing after all.

It's good you have a 5 year degree in Economics, I'm not going to try to be funny and joke about that, although not only from this thread, but from other threads I haven't agreed on how tactful you were regarding the whole Peru and the obsession with defending LAN, therefore missing some basic concepts and common sense taking a back seat.

I'm not going to say that I have a degree in Economics but yes I also know what ROI means (thanks for the bold letters, now we all know that you know what that means). Good, because somehow what you wrote in the other post about natural monopolies gave the impression that you didn't know what you were talking about. Then in the previous post you said something totally different that actually made sense. No big deal, sometimes even with a degree one needs to refresh things.

Just because other airlines have been absorbed by Lan Chile and some of the rest that emerged have folded, doesn't mean airlines should be natural monopolies in Chile or anywhere else. Luckily for you guys it's one of the best-managed airlines in the region. Still your example of P & G is poor and even quite funny. Go look at a store shelf and see how many deodorants & perfumes you can get. Next time you fly, tell me if you have a choice of 30 different airlines and prices that vary as much as 75% in between. So yes they're very different; besides, as you know an airline just can't go and "open up shop" in a foreign country just like that to gain market share, as if it were a retail store or a factory. Something about your logic of comparing apples to peanuts that err.. let's just say I'd omit them if I was you.

However I agree with you LAN has gone into places where corruption and business practices are so screwed up eg: Peru, Ecuador, that haven't been able to start their own national carrier in years. It doesn't take an effort to see there's a problem when the international airline of Peru and Ecuador have been flying a Lan Chile aircraft to Miami for years. I also understand and agree that LAN haven't just gone in and tried to take over anybody yet in the countries they've foraged into.

Pardon me if I seemed rude, but even if I was the supreme authority on worldwide aviation I wouldn't tell anywone "wrong again" and that type of arrogant behavior .. u know what I mean. And I don't care if Carrefour is the world's 2nd biggest supermarket if there's not a single store in the cities where I've lived. Lame attempt at discrediting any business knowledge I might possess, if I might add (that's why I've skipped many other posts where you and others were arguing) But anyways thanks for letting me know it's that big of a retailer  Big grin and no hard feelings here.
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:29 pm

Arcano:
No am not Argentine. I am of Brazilian and Italian parents living in OZ.

I thought that the deal with American Falcon fell through. Especially with the help of AR in the matter, who now operate an ex American Falcon plane??

I sometimes wish that the patriotism was left on the football pitch as opposed to anywhere else. National pride always seems to play a big role in any foreign matter within South America. And ALL Latin American countries are to blame.

I question your thinking on this issue:
'Everyone wins'. I'll disagree and say thet the only one that wins is LA. Wether they operate out of LIM or EZE, the money always ends up in the coffers of LA. As it should since they are running an airline. My biggest issue here is the tendancy for the local carriers of these developing countries to go bust. Competition right? Tough? Maybe. But the once again you will have a dominant carrier who is able to charge what they like within South America. Let's say LA enters the Argentine market and AR goes bust, LA will be able to charge whatever they like to places like MAD,MIA,LAX,SCL,AKL,SYD,LHR all through convenient code shares with respective OneWorld carriers. Maybe I am getting side tarck here, but a posability wherever LA enters. Especially with the consolidation of carriers that is taking place world wide.

IMO Lan Argentinae may not find it hard to lure away cumstomers from the other carriers. They will however have to provide affordable tickets to destinations where AR fly to. Hving recently flown to EZE I was shocked to find many Chilean passengers (ex SYD) who chose to fly AR due to their cheaper fares. Even if it meant a transit in EZE.

Would it have been a smart marketing campaign to paint the aircraft with Peruvian national colours and call it Lan Peru? probably
Should all flights be operated by Peruvian Nationals? Probably
Would it have helped the current situation? Deffinately


 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:21 am

What does everyone have against Arcano? The thread started (not by Arcano) with the question "Is LP the most harrassed company in Peru?". To which I would add; Is Arcano the most harrassed poster on A.net?
As a peruvian (I was born and raised there and fly there often), I think that many of the points he raises are valid. First, commercial airlines in Peru are an embarrassment. I have flown on Faucett, AeroPeru and there are others I wouldn't dare get on. We all know what happened to most of those airlines. I understand that N6 has now been sold AGAIN.
When a judge in a court in Peru that has no jurisdiction on a case makes a ruling, it usually stinks of corruption. Judges can be (and are usually) bought for pennies. There is another case in Peru with Panamericana Television where judges in all sorts of cities were making rulings in favor of the plaintiffs who brought the cases forward, with both parties trying to take over the operations of the channel. In the end, none of the courts had any power to rule in that case.
As it's already been reported, a judge's ruling has been OVERTURNED in the LP case. What does that say?
A good friend of mine travels on business all over Peru and he usually flies on LP. He says it's "by far the best" (his words). I cannot recall the last time any airline that was Peruvian flew new equipment. And I would venture to say (my opinion only) that most Peruvians don't care. There are people who have a vested interest in the demise of LP who are causing trouble, but, as Arcano has said, we have to wait until time decides the fate of LP. I predict that they will continue providing excellent service in the skies of Peru for a long time.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6211
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:33 am

Arcano did not start the thread.

Anyway, I really regret that LP is being prevented from operating based on a judicial resolution that may have been based on pressure from certain groups or even on bribing. I am not saying this is the case but it sure could be a possibility. In any case, I think that whether the judge had valid reasons for his resolution or not, this is the kind of situation that can result in international investors being unwilling to invest in Peru. The clearest sign that this resolution sends is that rules for foreign investment (in the aviation industry) are not as clear as it would be desirable and that the same are subject to discretionary interpretation.

If, in addition, the purpose was to prevent the LAN Group from competing for the Peruvian market for the sake of "national" interests, this is also a terrible sign that populist nationalism is in the rise and that progress and advancement are taking a step back.

Hopefully LP will be autorized to continue operating and, if they need to comply with certain requirements to bring their good standing up to date, they will do so immediately.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:45 am

Arcano is right. LAN is a business, and if they can expand (unlike unefficient national carriers like N6 and RG) let them do it! Why should peruvians have to fly at really high prices in a really crappy airline?
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:17 am

FLY2LIM:
I am not sure as to wether he is the most harrased person, but I have the utmost respect fore Arcano. Sometimes he can get a litlle arrogant/hot under the collar.(I know your reading this Arcano) but who can't?
But I have yet to witness a personal attack here or on any other thread!
That is the great thing about Anet. EVERYONE is entitled to THEIR own opinion. So if I or any one else for that matter questions something it does not mean that we have a grudge against the fellow A netter!
And with the wealth of knowledege from various A.netters, we all learn things that we may have not known before.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3003
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:22 am

Arcano is right. LAN is a business, and if they can expand (unlike unefficient national carriers like N6 and RG) let them do it! Why should peruvians have to fly at really high prices in a really crappy airline?


NuevoContinente is basically a really crappy and unsafe LCC (you should see some of their fares). Sort of like Valujet in 1995/96.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:19 am

Hola a todos,

This one is my first post at A.net, though I have been closely following this discussion for the last few days.

I think Argentinian CONSUMERS would earn a lot letting LAN fly their flights, so I think the entrance of Lan Argentina would be great.

As an Argentinian costumer, and nationalism aside, I wouldn't be so cheerful about LAN entering our market.

Aerolíneas Argentinas' fares for national flights are very very cheap. They could even enter the "low-cost" category, if compared with international standards. AEP-JUJ is about 400 pesos, or 130 dollars. It is a 3-hour flight, where you get food and all the stuff.

Should LAN enter the market, AR and LA would certainly start a price-war. With prices being as abovementioned very low, the war could end up with AR closing down some non-profitable destinations. Those destinations are resisted with cashcow-routes incomes. AR is doing a good job by connecting those quite isolated cities, such as VDM, RSA or FMA, with Buenos Aires a few times per week.

Re international and intercontinental flights: there is already quite a lot of concurrence. EZE is well-served by lots of European and American airlines, which means prices are, again, very convenient for us customers. I can go to almost anywhere in Europe for less than 900 USD return in LH or IB for instance. Unless LAN finds a hidden niche somewhere, which I highly doubt, they will have to compete with lots of other, good-price-offering companies.

This said, I wouldn't mind having LAN here. But, as mentioned before, I am not as cheerful as Arcano is. He said this is business. True, but AR privilegies its flag-carrier job, flying to remote destinations (not like LADE but still) that don't make any single penny for them. They can "darse el lujo" of it because they are the only real airline in Argentina. And I wonder if this policy could be continued if LanArgentina ever starts...

Saludos,
Marambio

Edit - spelling mistake

[Edited 2004-10-13 03:21:10]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:34 am

FLY2LIM, Eddie, TBCITDG, RCS763av and OB1504.

...you were right on that TDG, you know me well for being sure I was gonna read your post!.
Thanks a lot for your support, pals, although I admit I never felt "the most harrassed poster on A.net"  Smile. TBG you are right about the manners, but don't misunderstand arrogance with lack of pacience to cheap ideas or wrong concepts. I just see Airlines as a business (one that I love!), but I really don't see the point in pretending that Airlines are a matter of national pride or a way to say good/bad things about countries. I want a good airline, I dont' care if Lan owners get more rich with my money, so I don't want to see a gigant airline that doesn't allow more choices for me.

We can choose what type of debate we want to have in A.net: a bunch of frantic statements about Latin Aviation, or we can try to be more serious, and post facts and professional points of view (which might disagree to each other of course, even at best!) as airline managers does. I vote for the second one and in that side of the discussion I try to stay. Do I get out of it? sure! is so funny!

Eddie I actually share a lot of your views about the bad signs this is for foreing investment in Peru, a country (as all of ours) that surely needs foreing dollars for economical development. It's frustrating when companies does not compete based on competitive advantages, but courts, intrigues. It's nice to see some Peruvian pals here for telling us that "Chilean evil companu" is not a subject among Peruvians. You know sometimes media can be tricky and we tend to hear this is all about feelings against Chilean companies. It's always good to have both versions of the story.

I' am critic though about LAN lack of vision to be perfectly clear about their operation, or to be very tight to Peru/Ecuador regulation. After all, it's possible to think that in some cases they flew with more crew. LP, as any company anywhere could fall in faults anytime, but they should be willing to pay the consecuences if so. Actually, Lan has been fined for overcharging a couple of times last years in some routes not well regulated by free competition (as you know, as a part of Chilean authority's allowance for LA buying UC, some prices would be regulated in order to prevent monopolistic behavior). It's simple: any faults? then fine. Big fault? then suspention.
______________________________________
TBC, back to Lan Argentina.

What I meant by "everybody wins" I was not talking about AR; I was talking about Lan and Argentine consumers that get more competition with more airlines, as we Chileans are about to get with Aerolineas del Sur.

I actually don't share your concerns about a single carrier operating certain routes and hence overcharging prices. At this point the Governments should be present.

As I explained above, in the case of Lan Express, in those routes with no competition (as Copiapo, La Serena, Punta Arenas, Easter Island, etc), Lan Chile / Express is forced to stay within some price gap. They can not charge for tkts above certain figure, which is calculated (in a very rough way to explain it) as an average price per kilometers of routes with competitive prices.

Although obviously monopolies is not the best, it can be regulated for "replaying" competition conditions. So, with responsible and well regulated aviation market, the people should not be "punished" by this one airline. LANhas overcharged sometimes and then they got the fine. All regulations must be acomplished.

Do you get the point? this is why AdS was acepted (so far) even when Argentina is not open for LAN. As our Transportation Minister said: "not because they are close we would win something by getting as close as them". Besides, MAD,MIA,LAX,SCL,AKL,SYD,LHR would have enough competition.

Let's say LA enters the Argentine market and AR goes bust
Yes, that's a tough scenario, but that would happen only if LA charges below costs, which is called dumping and it's illegal. Besides, I think Marsans have enough background for holding LAN. This is the most interesting issue for AdS: it's not a tiny investor competing LAN, it's a large company.

Chileans filling AR planes. Yes! AR have very competitive fares for Chileans to fly abroad: Europe and Oceania mostly, having some partnerships with tourism wholesalers, offering 2x1 tkts, etc. But so does LA in Argentina: Actually, a collegue of mine flew business in LA from BsAs! because even considering the flight SCL-EZE-SCL, he got a much better fare in EZE-LAX than SCL-LAX.

And as for LP: yes to all your final questions, LAN could done a better marketing in Peru, but that would have been very expensive, and no matter how much LAN is oriented to service, it should be one of the most "oriented to save costs" airlines in the world.

Miami: But anyways thanks for letting me know it's that big of a retailer and no hard feelings here.
Yeap, that's the whole idea. To disagree does not equal to hurt.

Regards to all of you )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:39 pm

Ok! So everyone is happy now??? Good!
Can we now concentrate on important issues like :dulce de leche, asado and mate all been Argentine inventions, Chile taking over Bolivian land, democracy in Cuba, machu pichu am overated tourist destination, and Brazil having the biggest economy in South America!!
jejejeje
jejejeje
jejejeje
jejejeje
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:53 pm

@TBCITDG, excellent post, very logical arguments.

It's not an attack against LAN or Arcano lol. I personally don't think LAN stirs any passions here, hell I don't care that much myself what happens. Nobody is jealous of LAN or anybody Arcano. The point is we dislike the idea of having RG, AV, AR or any other company try to set up a subsidiary in any other foreign country that competes with the local airlines, even if they weren't as good. However I can tell you as an aircraft photographer and enthusiast if one day I go to Argentina and only see the obvious AR planes and something like LAN Argentina everywhere that will be the most boring sight for me ever.

I wish we still had AeroPeru, Faucett, Ecuatoriana, Saeta, LAP Air Paraguay etc. I wish every country had their own airline like it used to be.

FLY2LIM:

Nobody has anything against Arcano or anybody else. What happens is that some users (and understandably so) debate the fact that someone would see LAN as the best choice for 2nd airline for their country or that everybody will be better off that way. Peruvians and others want to have an airline they can call their own, with local employees and revenues that contribute to the country's economy, even if the airline is not as good as LAN or TAM or American Airlines.

And why should they? the national carrier of Peru was Aerocontinente. LP is a private airline that doesn't fly for being flying ambassador.
Why are you so mad at LAN? jealous?


-Well I think they should, but that's just my opinion.
-As OB1545 pointed out Aero Continente (now Nuevo Continente) minus the widebodies is a local little airline. They were never Peru's national airilne. They haven't had one since AeroPeru.
-LAN Peru (now I understand it's all altogether LAN) is the only uhum.. "Peruvian" airline flying to North America. That plus the fact it has PERU in it's name is enough to be the ambassador of the country abroad. If not what why the heck did they use the name for? It doesn't matter that it's private; so is IB, AR etc and they are the national Spanish and Argentinian airlines respectively.

-Nobody is jealous, but obsessive national pride and obsession with something, in this case (LAN) seems to many of us a little.. let's just say exaggerated. LAN, in the long run is not the answer in countries like Argentina and others, not even in Peru. The number of LAN employees in Ecuador that someone mentioned above didn't impress me (besides the revenue not going into Ecuador's economy). I'd like to see Ecuatoriana again serving MIA, JFK and other cities in Latin America. Tame doesn't look like a substitute at the moment. I'm not up to date with the social & political situation in Ecuador at this time. Hopefully they'll get their own international airline again ...some day.


Nobody here is jealous of LAN, we just think with TACA and now LAN it's enough airline consolidation already. At the end consumers end up screwed. Latin American countries shouldn't depend on a foreign airline to bring reliable local and international service. They have a responsiblity to their citizens to create local jobs and grow the economy.

regards to all, yes including you Arcano  Big grin
 
SEQU
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:59 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:49 am

Hola Nuevamente,

"The number of LAN employees in Ecuador that someone mentioned above didn't impress me (besides the revenue not going into Ecuador's economy)."

I think it is important to think in the context of what happened in each one of the countries that LAN has set up a subsidiary. They all had airlines that were badly managed that went bankrupt. The majority of employees of those companies now work for LAN or another group like TACA in Peru. It is unfortunate that those companies didn't survive, but they didn't go under because of LAN. They went under because of their own problems. None of the companies in Ecuador, at least, went broke because of competition or because of a large "strong" economically stable group or because of bad maintenance or because of an accident (Aeroperu might be an exception, but had the accident been handled differently, maybe Aeroperu might have survived)....they all went under because of bad management. LAN only saw the opportunity and being incredibly aggressive enteprenuers and good managers, they went for it and low and behold, it has worked. I don't think that it would work in Colombia for example, due to the fact that, as has been pointed out numerous times, the Colombian market is extremely different than Ecuador and Peru....

Yes, the number of employees in each country might not be that impressive, but the matter of fact is those employees would either a) have a job with one of the local, less stable, probably even lower paying companies or b) be out of a job. Furthermore, LAN is growing in Peru and Ecuador, it will provide more and more jobs in the long run than can possibly be said about a locally funded company. As for the revenue not going into Ecuadorean or Peruvian economy, that depends on how you look at it....if someone makes an investment, they are entitled to their share of the profits...

Also, I have a feeling nobody will say one bit about the fact that LAB is now going to be in the same boat as LAN in Ecuador. They just purchased the remains of Ecuatoriana will begin a wet lease operation to the U.S., just "a la LAN" three years ago....in theory, we should be having the same discussions about them right???

Let's wait and see...

Saludos,

Alfredo
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:19 am

Alfredo: I couldn't say it better! you have summarized most of my post!

Miami: I still think you don't get my point, but I think it's pointless to go further.

TBCITDG: I see we are in the sarcastic mood now!... so let's talk about all wour deep hate towards Chile and LAN! surely one of the most exiting topics ever!

Marambio: Bienvenido al foro!
I think your scenario is more tragic than it could be if LAN landed there. I tell you why: War prices are suicidal, almost no serious company use them. Actually, there could be an oportunity fo LA and AR to share Argentine market if they compete oriented to different markets: AR good fares, LA goos quality.
In our case, Sky actually isn't that much cheaper than LAN, just a couple of bucks, so I don't think LAN would try to remove AR by price wars. Do you have any idea about the image they would be projecting within Argentina if they do that, and after the dead of Aerolineas they rised the tkts? It would be a dissaster, and the perfect way for closing doors in other markets. No way thay could happen.

But actually, don't you think for you it's better to have 2 airlines than 1? Wasn0t you better than now during the golden days of Argentina when you could chose Aerolineas, Dinar, SWinds or LAPA? all of them with reliable service!

I really don't think LAN would try to kill AR of they land there: it would be the worst strategy ever!
It was in that sense I said Argentine people would win. Not because it's LAN, but because you would get more alternatives. And that's always, always better.

Me sigues el punto?

Regards )(

in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:26 pm

Come on Arcano! I was jocking!We are currently on ggood terms so let's not spoil it!
Totaly off the point here, but have you ever flown Sky? Does their service justify the high prices or is it a case 'because we can' attitude?
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Court Orders LanPeru Suspension

Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:25 pm

"Arcano is right. LAN is a business, and if they can expand (unlike unefficient national carriers like N6 and RG) let them do it! Why should peruvians have to fly at really high prices in a really crappy airline?"


I 100 % agree. Who wants to fly a crappy airline like N6. Basically, more than a business Lan-Peru is a good business. Far ahead from any other airline in the area. So, why suspend the best service offered down there?

Does anybody knows the legal arguments of the Peruvian Court ?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andy33, Atlwarrior, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], dc10s2hnl, Emperorvalse, euroflyer, Google [Bot], klwright69, LH452, michaelg90222, Nicoeddf, PHBVF, speedbored, StTim, Yirina77 and 235 guests