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The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:36 pm

***Sigh***

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=676&e=2&u=/usatoday/20041011/ts_usatoday/airlineidrequirementfaceslegalchallenge

Only in America would someone tie up the legal system to make things more convienent for them, regardless of what everyone else thinks.

My favorite part:

Last year, before taking off on a British Airways flight from San Francisco to London, Gilmore angered fellow travelers by refusing to remove a blue button on his lapel that had the words "suspected terrorist" imposed over the picture of an airliner. After a delay, the pilot went back to the gate and ordered Gilmore off the jet.

Ah if only we had a "loser pays" system...

B

 
N754PR
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:42 pm

Its a joke that comes up every month....... "If I was an American I could have sued you for that  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
desertjets
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:50 pm

As far back as I can remember presenting ID at check-in was always a requirement. So whether it is an airline employee or a TSA employee doing it I fail to see how this is a new intrusion into my personal privacy and right to travel freely throughout the country.

If Gilmore wants to fight for privacy rights perhaps he should be fighting private corporations and their selling of personal information. Frankly loosely regulated private entities scare me a lot more than the government.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
BCAL
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:54 pm

And next story is that Gilmore does not wish to show his car licence number, as that is an infringement of his rights to move freely in his car around the country too!

Any senisble Judge will throw the case out before it goes to hearing...Will they?



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jetjack74
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:54 pm

How textbook is it that this clown gets to his case heard by the 9th Circiut Court of Appeals. Those idiots award more frivelous cases than any other appellete court
Made from jets!
 
Falcon84
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:55 pm

As far back as I can remember presenting ID at check-in was always a requirement.

Actually, it's fairly recent. My last stint working the ticket counter for CO was in '94, and we didn't require ANYONE to show ID. People were traveling on other peoples' tickets all the time. Only if they were stupid and told us this did they not go. We did start requiring ID at the gate prior to 9/11, but not much before that.

As for Mr. Gilmore, if you don't show me ID when checking in or at the security checkpoint, then you don't go. It's that simple. Don't like it? Don't fly.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ssides
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:01 am

As for Mr. Gilmore, if you don't show me ID when checking in or at the security checkpoint, then you don't go. It's that simple. Don't like it? Don't fly.

Exactly. His right to travel is not being violated at all. Nothing is stopping him from traveling by car, boat, train, bus, ox-cart, etc. Yes, there is a right to travel in the US Constitution, but there's not an explicit right to travel by air.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
desertjets
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:01 am

Alpha,... err Falcon. In my defense I can't remember very far back. But I do remember needing to show ID on TWA in 96 and on CO and HP on check-in during the late 90s... perhaps it varied from station to station.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
prosa
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:05 am

While the ID requirements probably does virtually nothing in terms of deterring terrorism, it's such a minor intrusion that I cannot understand why anyone would object.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
aa777flyer
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:18 am

Mr. Gilmore is right, he has the right no NOT show his ID. He also has the right to stay home and not travel. He has the right to charter his own jet. (which it sounds as though he can afford) He has the right to drive to his destination. He has the right to be an idot!

I am glad that there are manditory ID checks. Safety Security First. People have to realize that they must give up some rights if they with to exercise the PRIVILAGE of traveling by air.

[Edited 2004-10-11 17:24:36]
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
Falcon84
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:18 am

While the ID requirements probably does virtually nothing in terms of deterring terrorism, it's such a minor intrusion that I cannot understand why anyone would object.

It is more for making sure that who is named on the ticket is flying. I can't understand why we didn't always do this. Imagine, if a plane crashed, and it was reported that John Doe was among the dead, when, in fact, Mr. Doe gave his ticket to Archie Bunker, and LGW-Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter (Germany)">HE is the one that died, but his name doesn't show on the manifest? Another lawsuit, right there.

It's just common sense.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
S12PPL
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:11 am

What I love is he wears a button that says "Suspected Terrorist." Since when did anyone say he was a suspected terrorist, simply because he is required to show ID?? Yes, part of the ID requirement is to ensure you aren't on the watch list. But the other part of it is to ensure you are who you say you are, and are traveling on the correct ticket. This mistake even happens post 9/11. In 2003 I was working the ticket counter and had a pair of sisters checking in for Tuscon. One of them said she had a strange situation. One of the sister's husband's couldn't make the trip at the last minute, and for some reason in TUS, her sister was checked in and traveled on her HUSBAND'S ticket! I looked, and sure enough, her sisters PNR showed she hadn't flown out of TUS, and her brother in law had used half his itenerary. So this sister in TUS had slipped past the counter agent, the TSA, and the gate agent, and it didn't seem odd that her name wasn't Robert to any of the 5+ people that checked her ID between the counter and the gate. Plus, at her transfer point, the gate agent THERE missed it.
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
MaverickM11
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:12 am

"there is a right to travel in the US Constitution"

Really? I've noticed lately a lot of people like to make up "rights" that don't exist anywhere but in people's heads.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
zrs70
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:19 am

ID's became necessary after TWA 800.
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:29 am


Any senisble Judge will throw the case out before it goes to hearing...Will they?


BCAL, that's how the issue is going up to the 9th Circuit. The trial judge threw the case out and the plaintiff chose to appeal that dismissal. Mind you, there's no guarantee the 9th Circuit will put the appeal on their docket, either. They could just as easily tell the guy to take a hike.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
mdsh00
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:33 am

I have had to show my ID before flying prior to 9/11. It really is nothing new. Maybe he shouldn't show his ID when making a credit card purchase either.  Insane
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:37 am

RE: Maybe he shouldn't show his ID when making a credit card purchase either.

I didn't know you had to. I've made hundreds of credit card purchases in the US and round the world, nobody has ever asked me for ID.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
jhooper
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:38 am

He did say one thing I agree with:

Gilmore said the ID requirement does little to ensure security. "Ordinary citizens may show correct identification, but do we really think that someone who is willing to commit a terrorist act won't also be willing to present false identification?"

Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:49 am

.......At issue is Gilmore's claim that checking the IDs of passengers on domestic flights violates his right to travel throughout the USA anonymously, without the government monitoring him........

Hey buddy, just to let you know... When you BUY a ticket, YOUR NAME goes into the computer and is PRINTED on the ticket and printed on the FLIGHT MANAFEST.. so ANONMUS you are NOT. The airline is just making sure the person that's name is on the ticket is the person traveling........ O'hh and PS: Airlines have been doing this LONG before Sept 2001.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
jeb94
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:57 am

You know what Mr. Gilmore? You're free to travel all you want but flying is a priveledge that requires you do certain things and follow certain rules. If you don't follow those certain rules then the airline has the right to not do business with you. Anymore it seems more and more Americans have gotten it in their heads that rights and priveledges are the same. Its time the education system in America starts teaching much more about American the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and what they mean. Maybe then the sacrifices the members of our armed services make defending those rights would be better appreciated.
 
zvezda
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:48 am

DesertJets wrote:
"Frankly loosely regulated private entities scare me a lot more than the government."

You're entitled to be scared by whatever scares you, but governments have murdered perhaps a million times more people than private corporations have.
 
gigneil
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:12 am

I'm all for this. While I have no problem with showing my ID, I do have a problem with the manner in which the TSA conducts itself in general.

It takes freaks on both sides to end up with a moderate approach to anything.

N
 
BritPilot777
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:16 am

I thought passengers always had to show their ID when travelling domestically?? Here in England you still need your passport to travel domestically just as a form of ID.
Forever Flight
 
miamix707
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:51 am

I didn't know you had to. I've made hundreds of credit card purchases in the US and round the world, nobody has ever asked me for ID

That could very well depend in which city you're in, at least in the USA. It's also possible everybody thought you were Superman. However you can go to Orlando florida for example and never be asked for ID when making a credit card purchase, but go further south to Miami and be asked for ID everytime.

You're entitled to be scared by whatever scares you, but governments have murdered perhaps a million times more people than private corporations have

It's understandable, you are from Lithuania which used to be part of the Soviet Union. But it also sounds like something a 1st grader would say.
 
AirEMS
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:05 am

My question is if he has "Multiple Millions" then why is he flying commerically?
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
burnsie28
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:12 am

At work we only ask for a ID when a Credit/Debit card are not signed, or the singnature is a little or a lot off from the credit/debit card.

As for this guy, if you seen what he looks like in one pic, you might understand why, damn hippie.

I wonder if he was denied boarding on that UA flight he was checking in for in the pic http://images.usatoday.com/travel/_tphotos/images/2004-10-11-privacy.jpg
 
Okie
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:36 am

Actually, it's fairly recent. My last stint working the ticket counter for CO was in '94, and we didn't require ANYONE to show ID. People were traveling on other peoples' tickets all the time. Only if they were stupid and told us this did they not go

Falcon84 is absolutely correct as far as domestic travel in the US.

Airlines were in the business of taking tickets not running a security organization. Often businesses or organizations bought tickets in advance to get better prices under pesudo names when they would be moving a number of people to destinations. (as in business perks to clients, moving clients to trade shows, crews to races, a week end trip and you would not be exactly sure who your SO would be 5 weeks down the line, vacation for your children and which ever friend that went along that week, the list went on and on)

I am not so sure that until the last 5 years that airlines had the ability or computer power to connect the name on the ticket to the credit card number.
I have had friends that were seriously concerned when having to cough up their credit card to their children so they can take the trip to CUN or other hot spot so the kids can board the plane.

Okie

 
sevenair
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:03 am

yeah, only in america!
in the UK, we have had to show ID for many many many many years due to several political issues. So for yanks I guess its a new thing. Either way, stupid idiot!
 
magyar
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:39 am


Mr. Gilmore should not worry, soon he does not need to show any ID.
There will be other safer and easier methods to ID one. Fingerprints
at check-ins, retinal scans perhaps, or even facial patern recognitions.
Big Brother can watch you without being obvious.
 
AA767400
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:14 am

What a freak! I mean, is this what this country is coming to? And the whole tag with suspected terrorist on it?  Laugh out loud
"The low fares airline."
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:23 am


The bad thing is that the 9th Circuit is known for stupid decision making. It's the "rogue" court in the US Appellate system.
 
access-air
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:41 am

Actually,

I think that it wasnt until after TWA 800 that airlines took a heard line about showing proper ID...I have been a travel agent since 1989 and some of my clients back then used to use other peoples tickets (Against my suggestion of being caught).
One of them did ...It was group and he gave my 12 fake names unknown to me, because they were a group traveling together they asked for ID (America West at PHX) and they got nailed. The guy actually had the gall to come back and yell at me about it.....It was his fault.
I dont remember being asked for ID until the mid to late 90s....And I did a lot of flying in the early to mid 90s...
But yes, ID wasnt required until sometime after the TWA 800 incident.
I was working parttime at Great Lakes Airlines in Rock Falls, Illinois and things regarding security changed right quick.
When I was re-hired by Great Lakes in 1997 on a parttime basis, we had to then do our own security. Airlines for some reason were getting hip to people using other people's tickets as well and decided that tickets and names must match.
I rememebr having to ask the Security questions...which mysteriously they dont ask anymore.... seems to me that they would want to weed out "bad passengers" before they get to the security check points...but I guess TSA thinks they can do it al themselves... In some cases they can...and in some cases TSA is just as inept as before the 9/11 incident.
There were different criteria that we had for making a passenger do a PPBM...But the strange thing was....back then like at all the airport because we were security trained ourselves in our small airport we didnt have an ex-ray machine. We had to hand search carry-ons...However the Checked baggage went on thru to the big airlines....UNSEARCHED...No one thought anyone would be stupid. One other thing that the FAA allowed back then was allowing passengers to carry on any knife in which the blade was I think under 4 inches. If it was bgger than that it was believed to be a weapon.
Kind of funny that the FAA wasnt smart enuff to have that Checked bag ExRay machines available to airlines in the US until so many people had to die....Its the typical FAA Coffin Mentality of acceptable losses before they do something about it...Sort of like buying flood insurance when your house is floating 20 miles downstream......

In any case, this guy has no basis for ANY lawsuit. The lawyer that decides to repersent him is just after money. He will not win..and If he does, whats the point of security and TSA?????

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
ckfred
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:14 am

Here are a few "legal" reasons why airline and airport security asking for ID is not an infringement of his Constitutional rights.

If a person drives a car and is pulled over by the police, he has to present a driver's license. It's not only proof that he is certified by the state to drive a car, but it allows the police to check for outstanding warrents, which is permissible for traffic stops.

If a person is arrested for any crime, whether it's jaywalking or murder in the first degree, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that an arrestee is obligated to give his name and address. Giving a name and address is not considered self-incrimination.

If police suspect a person of a crime, particularly theft, they can subpoena MaterCard, Visa, and Amex for records showing recent activity. Police often find criminals by noting that credit card activities may follow an interstate highway.

On top of that aircraft are privately owned. In March of 2002, I had to show a driver's license to park in the garage of the Prudential Building in Boston. One cannot get into the Sears Tower, even to eat at McDonald's, without showing either tenant or goverment I.D.

Now, I can understand people who have names similar to persons listed on watch lists getting irritated, especially since the government has no easy way to get one's name off the watch list, and it hasn't rolled out the trusted traveller program nationally.

But look at it this way, the Supreme Court has ruled that accurately reporting one's income for purposes of filing an income-tax return is not self-incrimination.

I'm betting that Mr. Gilmore does not like to give his phone number or zip code to retailers, when he checks out.
 
FlyMIX
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:41 am

Mr. Gilmore is a jerk, and as many posts here have stated he has no case.

However, what about the Terrorist "No Fly" list...that is more sinister. You have no access to the reason that you cannot fly, and no appeal. Although the whole Cat Stevens and Senator Kennedy situations may be kind of funny, it is scary that the government can ground anyone from any country, and never tell them why or how they can fight it if they are not the people intended to be grounded!
 
fxra
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:26 pm

I fail to see how showing an ID to a TSA agent allows one to be tracked by the government. Last I went through airport security (in sevral places), the TSA agent looks at the photo ID and makes sure the same name appears on the ticket. I have yet to see one TSA agent run to a big computer and type your name into a database for the US gov't that says your flying from point A- to B. ANd i don't get the feeling that the TSA guys have the memory capacity to remember 300 peoples names and type them in later.

So, in short you moron, the Gov't isn't tracking your travel habits as much as the airline is (they keep incredible abounts of data on passengers), and the TSA is more interested in looking for inconsitencies and suspicious behavior at ID checks then really knowing your middle name and where your going this weekend. (I am however unsure at the skills of the TSA to notice "suspicious" behavior).

but its so nice to see my tax money paying for such entertainment!
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
cha747
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:19 pm

As far back as I can remember presenting ID at check-in was always a requirement.

I distinctly remember airlines becoming more concerned about this during the first wave of what we now consider "starndard" airport security during and after Gulf War the 1st. Prior to 1990, I can't recall having to cough-up anything but a ticket at the airport. In addition to ID's, didn't they start to ask the famous "3 questions" in 1990?
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
baw716
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:25 pm

We can call Mr. Gilmore what we like (jerk, nutcase, etc). That is not the real issue. The issue that he raises is that asking for him to show ID is an illegal search under the constitution.

From what I have read so far, the issues of the case have not been argued; only the issue of secrecy, which the TSA had requested and had been denied. The case is before the 9th circuit to determine if the case should be heard in secret. There is not one prayer that the TSA will prevail on that point, because the TSA issue ID requirement (as it is required now), is part of the Patriot Act. It really does not involve any procedural issues that the TSA should keep confidential.

Mr. Gilmore's case is without merit. There are two reasons for this:
1) Any governmental agency has the right to request ID from any person. In point of fact, ANYONE has the right to ask for ID from another person. Based on the situation, any number of outcomes may occur. If you are pulled over by a California Highway Patrol officer and you do not present your ID, you are taken into custody for interfering with a peace officer in the performance of his duty. You have the right to keep your information secret, and if you elect to not show your ID, that is perfectly OK. You may not be allowed into certain parks, sensitive areas, etc. or be able to cash a check.

This is the issue that comes into play with Mr. Gilmore. He is perfectly within his rights not to show his ID. If he elects not to do so, the airline does not have an obligation to board him, since the government requires them to establish the identity of any passenger boarding its aircraft.

If Mr. Gilmore elects not to show his ID to the TSA, he will not be arrested, he will simply be denied access to the sterile area of the airport. In that event, he won't be going anywhere. The issue of illegal search and seizure has to do with the government taking an action to search someone or his/her property where the government believes that the person being searched has committed a crime. Mr. Gilmore has not committed any crime, to our knowledge, and the government has not proceeded to hold him or interrogate him for his failure to show his ID. Simply asking for his ID is not an illegal search. Taking him to a room and making him take his clothes off for a search when there is no probably cause to do so WOULD be considered an illegal search.

2) Mr. Gilmore is simply trying to get his point in the media (which he has now succeeded in doing). He wants to get other people to believe in his position, using his right to litigate the matter to get the publicity he needs to accomplish his goals. It is going to be very evident to the judge, when the case is finally heard, that Mr. Gilmore has no case, because no law has been broken in the manner in which the TSA or other airport agency has asked for his ID. Once the 9th circuit rules on the case (which they may NOT do--they may kick it back to the Superior Court), it will go back to the court of origin, where it will be summarily dismissed with prejudice.

For Mr. Gilmore: Shame on you for wasting the time of the courts on an issue that you know upon which you will not prevail. Whether the ACLU went to you or v.v., you demean the system by bringing a frivolous action, taking the time of the Superior Court and the 9th Circuit. They have much more important decisions to render. I know that life is tough in Silicon Valley, you can't exactly get what you want? Get over it. If you decide that you do not wish to show your ID at the airport, that is your right. Just understand that you will never get near a passenger (or even charter) aircraft in this country again. EVER. That is our right.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
pilotpip
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:45 pm

Flying is a privelege, not a right. If he wants to board somebody else's aircraft, he must abide by their rules. Just like driving. If you can't abide by the rules set forth, or don't agree with them, use your two feet and shut the hell up.

FYI, if you're chartering an aircraft in the US, the crew is supposed to properly identify all passengers via ID.
DMI
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:43 pm

I sincerely apologize in advance, but why do Americans have to embarrass themsleves by making up stupid lawsuits and by fighting any regulation that requires an extra movement, like pulling an ID from an obese ass-pocket...

damn it


that is too stupid, seriously.

One day our CTA (Chicago Public Transport) will be sued for only serving T2-3, not 1 nor 5, all those 500lbs-peeps might have to walk for a minute...dang it...poor peeps...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
Mizzou65201
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RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:46 pm

Two small points.

For starters, the 9th Circuit bashing is somewhat uncalled for. It's a federal case because it raises constitutional issues, and the guy lives in California. The 9th Circuit hears all appeals from California and most other Western states including AK, HI, OR, WA, ID, etc. So it's not like he just decided to file his case there on a whim.

Second, perhaps the one decent question that comes out of this follows from what Jhooper said: does checking ID make one crap bit of difference from a security perspective?

As far as I see it, checking ID is useful only insofar as it shows the person holding a boarding pass for DOE/JOHN is in fact John Doe. It protects me from the already unlikely situation that someone else steals my ticket or hacks into my e-mail, finds my PNR, and checks in online to try to travel under my itinerary.

Otherwise, what's the point? Any criminal will either a) use their own ID, it's not like it's going to say "CRIMINAL" in big red letters or b) have a fake ID that works just the same.
 
JGPH1A
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Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:59 pm

The requirement to show your driver's license to a traffic cop is NOT the same as having to prove your ID when travelling. You have to show your driver's license to the traffic cop to prove that you are a licensed driver i.e. that you have passed your test and are qualified to be in control of the vehicle you are operating. There is no such thing as a passenger license - everyone is entitled to travel on a Public Carrier provided they pay the fare. It should not be necessary for the TSA to verify your identity prior to letting you enter the sterile area - they should confine themselves to doing their job ie. make sure you don't have any weapons or explosives with you - ensuring you are actually travelling is irrelevant from a security point of view. It is the airlines JOB to make sure that the person whose name appears on the ticket/boarding pass is actually the person travelling, to ensure that passengers who checked luggage actually board the aircraft.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:46 pm

Out of curiosity - has there ever been a lawsuit where someone claimed that his rights were being curtailed by actually having to pay for his airline tickets? Because that's just about the only thing I see as a possible way of eclipsing this lawsuit...

As for showing your ID - what's the big deal? I've experienced flights where I had to show my ID to get my checked baggage screend prior to even getting to the check-in counter, then had my ID looked at again while standing in line for check-in, had it looked at while actually checking in, had it - again - checked while going throug the security checkpoint, had to show it to the immigration officer a few moments later only to have it checked again at the gate while boarding... is it annoying? Yes, somewhat... does it curtail my rights in any way? Nope.

I've experienced checks like the ones I mentioned on flights from Germany to the UK and to the US, and although it's not the normal amount of checks, I really don't see any problem whatsoever with someone looking at my ID to check if the name matches the one on my ticket and to see if I resemble the picture on my ID... with those checks you can at least be reasonably sure that no-one can travel on a stolen (or lost) ticket: no name match - no travelling.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:07 pm

but go further south to Miami and be asked for ID everytime

I'm in Miami right now and have never been asked for an ID when paying by CC. In fact I can't remember a time when I haven't been given the card back before I signed the receipt!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:28 pm

Cha747

You are correct about when all the ID started. I remember at that time I was working as a travel agent and had a client or two get busted for trying to use a ticket in a name other than theres.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:21 pm

I read this article yesterday in the paper and saw the photos of Gilmore. What drew my attention to the article was that he is pictured in front of a UA ticket counter.

Had you seen the photographs of the guy you would understand why he is doing this. He is an old time 60s activist. He has more money than he knows what to do with, but rahter than give his money away to charity or something he would prefer to keep it and sooth his guilty conscience by funding silly lawsuits like this one.

Why does he fly commercial if he has milions? The article answers that question. He balked at the $33,000 expense of chartering a private jet. So he's cheap.

He is a waste of time.

The Bill of Rights prohibits unreasonable search and seizure. The key word being UNREASONABLE. I think any judge left or right would agree that airlines have a right to know WHO is getting on an airplane. If he wants to travel anonymously then there are other modes of transportation.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:43 pm

Ckfred,

Good legal analysis, and might I add that his whole contention is that by showing ID, the government is "monitoring his travel". But there is no way that the government could monitor his travel by having him show ID. The only time that you have to show ID anymore is before you enter the security checkpoint. No record is kept of which ID is shown to the TSA screeners, so this cannot constitute "monitoring his travel", or in legal terms, an unreasonable search.

I don't even think it amounts to a search. In order to have a search, there has to be a reasonable expectation of privacy as to the area searched. It's a VERY hard case to make if he wants to say that he has a reasonable expectation of privacy as to protecting his identity. I remember that Justice Kennedy told me about a case that was ruled upon in June where a Nevada man tried this same argument regarding being forced to show ID when asked by law enforcement. The Supreme Court ruled against him.

If the 9th Circuit is smart (that's a big if), then this guy will get nowhere.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:37 pm

UA744KSFO:

As someone mentioned earlier, TSA really doesn't monitor travel movements, but the airlines certainly keep those records, simply for FF mileage, as well as monitoring complaints.

The 7th Circuit ruled a few years ago, before September 11th, that a full search of one's bag was not unreasonable in light of the need to keep weapons off aircraft.

The plaintiff's bag was pulled for further inspection at ORD after the screener saw something suspicious on the x-ray monitor. The plaintiff didn't want his bag searched, and he even offered to leave the airport.

The court ruled that once a bag goes into the x-ray, a person has forfeited his right to not have the bag searched.

Hopefully, the learned judges of the 9th Circuit read this case before ruling on Mr. Gilmore's case.

But I've even been asked for I.D. when checking into hotels. The last one was a Holiday Inn Express in Tacoma, Washington.

 
baw716
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: The Latest Lawsuit: "I'm Not Showing My ID!"

Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:11 pm

JGPH1A
Your assertion that having to show your ID to a traffic cop is not the same as presenting your ID when checking in or at security is not entirely accurate.

You state that the only reason the traffic cop asks for your license is to establish that you have a legal right to drive, etc. That may be true in France, it is not true in the USA. When you are pulled over by a police officer and your ID and registration are taken, he has an identity check run on the license and if there are any outstanding "warrants" out for the person's address. In fact, the technology exists now to match a full criminal record accessable to the computer on board the police car. If the registration does not match the person and/or the address, the police also investigate this to determine if the car is stolen.

When ID is presented at an airport, a computerized identity check system checks the passenger's name against a database. If the person has committed an act on board an aircraft or anything else that the FBI has deemed to be a danger to other passengers, he is denied boarding. There are a good many flaws with this system and unfortunately, certain people who should not be on the no fly list are (this is a subject for another thread).

As I said in my earlier post, anyone has the right to request to view your ID. You also have the right to refuse. However, depending upon WHO requests your ID, e.g. a police officer, the person who refuses to cede their ID may be subject to further scrutiny. Yes, there are people who fake IDs. However, we have to start somewhere and this is a very basic security check that in most cases yields real results.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998

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