hardiwv
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Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:58 am

Should Avianca go to the Arab investor (under pressure from the pilots union) or to Brazilian oil-business magnate Mr. Efromovich, who owns Brazilian regional airline Oceanair? It's known that Mr. Efromovich would implement a business-oriented restructuring of the company - that's why he is so feared by the pilots union.

The pilots of Colombian airline Avianca approved a plan over the weekend to buy the company along with an "unnamed Arab investor" in an attempt to prevent an officially approved purchase offer from a Brazilian magnate.
Colombia's pilot union ACDAC met with representatives of the unnamed investor in Dallas, Texas, on Saturday. They approved a possible bid of $120 million to $130 million for the airline, which is emerging from bankruptcy.
The plan would give the pilots 51 percent of shares and the Arab investor the other 49 percent. (Avianca is currently held 50-50 by Colombian conglomerate Valores Bavaria and the country's Coffee Growers' Federation).

The airline said in August it could get out of bankruptcy by mid-October after winning approval from its creditors for a restructuring plan based on its sale to Brazil's Sinergy. But the pilots are determined to stop Sinergy's offer, which they say does not guarantee the airline's future. Sinergy, which is controlled by businessman Mr Efromovich, wants Avianca to complement its Brazilian regional carrier, Ocean Air. Efromovich's company has offered to make a $64 million cash injection into Avianca and assume its debt of about $300 million.
 
Fokker50
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:16 am

Well, I think that AV should go for Efromovich's ofer, wich is the best of all.

Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:08 am

Well...who knows....maybe they should go for Efromovich..I also read on the news that he is now looking at buying AIRES, the other airline of the Santodomingo Group.
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:37 am

Hey !


well, it depends, the arab offer seemd to be better, altough would be useful to know if those $120/130 covers AV debts, if it does would ovbiously better (in terms of money) to go with the arabs, but if the arabs don't cover the debts, they must go with sinergy's group.

Now, we need to see the advantages and disadvantages of both parts.

REGARDS

MATURRO727



 
LX23
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:42 am

Somehow, I'm not to keen on the Sinergy offer...a $64 million injection isnt really a lot...in my eyes, that offer will just help them become a regional airline working for Ocean. I know AV is not great and all of that...but still...
 
av757
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:44 am

You should see the same thread topic by wimpycol at this link which is allready in progress, you will find there on my response a direct link to the chapter 11 restructuring plan for AV in spanish, if you want to read the 190 pages you will probably see why the Sinergy group offer is no good.

There are no guarantees on the debt made by this group and also they are basically selling the airline for US $64,000,000.

The pilots offer US $120,000,000 and their pension debt of US $64,000,000 for the company.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1773035/4/

AV757
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:35 am

LX23: Why do you say AV is not great? Do you mean like a company or like an airline?
 
757MDE
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:22 am

Synergy offer "fixes it all" BUT the Pilot's pensions in the future (not enough safety on that point), and the biggest debt AV has now is Caxdac...

Caxdac = Pension

I don't know what the "Sheik" really offers, but Synergy offer isn't really appealing to me, I'm not like I totally disagree but "nunca me entró del todo"...
If the Pilots want the Sheik, it must be for something, the most affected if the Airline went down would be themselves and I don't think they would do such a thing without proper arguments (just please try to do no more operation turtlebolt because the affected one there is the customer... and they have nothing to do).
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tavong
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:25 am

Well i surely would like to know better the proposal of the "sheik" first and complete...at this time is too dark for anyone (excepting the pilots) to make an opinion.....

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:49 pm

The identity of "the Sheikh" should be revealed, so as to allow a comparison with "the Grande" !
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:25 pm

Well...what I have read is that the Sheik will give 51% of the company to the pilots. Thats why they say the offer is better...because they will control the airline....if this goes through, imagine those salaries....
 
Summa767
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:14 pm

Avianca's financial situation is much rosier than when Mr Efromovich first made a bid for the company. $64 m cash injection is not much in the grand scheme of things, but there is more than that in his offer. I do think that he cares passionately about keeping the company viable and expanding it.
The "Sheik" may offer more money, but for him it'll just be another business. Of course the pilots will be happy at -in theory- having a 51% stake. But the pilots union is not known for understanding efficiency and prooductivity very well, and so their preferred arrangement, akin to having children in charge of a sweet shop, might be less healthy for them in the long run than thay think.

About pensions, The OceanAir offer guarantees them in a well structured plan, so long as the company survives. There is no reason why it should not, indeed expand by being run in an efficient way. Indeed, it should grow given the potential that Colombia and Latin America offer.
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:00 pm

Hey!



well, altough we don't know much about "sheik", it seemd to be a good offer, now sinergy's group or better Mr. Efromovich it's caracterized for his good investments and decisions, he pick a company in bankrupt and he injects money for company salvation, then later the company becomes a rentabele business, or at least this is what i herd about Mr. Efromovich.

so... who know's... now Mr. RCS763av: do you really think that AV pilots will rice their own salary ??? i don't know i have herd that they are in a bad situation so i don't think anyone will try to do somthing bad for the airline, at these time AV now only need to save money so i think AV pilots need and will help


Thank's


MATURRO727




 
Fokker50
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:10 pm

Well...what I have read is that the Sheik will give 51% of the company to the pilots. Thats why they say the offer is better...because they will control the airline....if this goes through, imagine those salaries....

Well RCS763av, i think (not only me), that this hypotesis is kind of absurd, also we all know that now in this moment AV is passing by big finanical problems, so is ridicolus that the AV pilots rice their salaries, because iof they make that could happen the same thing that happened to VX.
If Sheik, give the 51% of the company to the pilots that would be an oddisey to the passengers, because the AV pilots are problemantic, only because of their new paper airline Fenix Airlines, also why do they need to airlines in Colombia that compete theirselves??? think on that..............  Wink/being sarcastic

Also I think that what Maturro says is true, altough we don't know much about "sheik", it seemd to be a good ofer.

Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
miamiair
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:17 pm

Pilots know how to fly airplanes; not run a complex operation such as an airline. Any pilots' union would love to own 51% of an airline, but what about the interests of the maintenance technicians, the ramp agents, reservations people? They have no say in the matter because their pockets aren't deep enough. What is needed is an un-biased evaluation of the situation and based on that evaluation a choice made as to who to go with.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
av757
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:44 pm

Pilots may know how to fly airplanes, but when it comes to airline management or business financials that is not in their league. The way things are going right now I do not see how the Sinergy group is going to save AV, when it does not give any economical guarantees for the debt, only verbal promises that he will pay his debt if the company survives and stays in business. And much less with the financials they have showed in their restructuring plan presented to the court in NYC.

Here is the link to the restructuring plan presented by AV.

http://www.avianca.com.co/QuienesSomos/Boletines/PlanRestructuracion.htm

From the news that has leaked out; the company will belong to 51% of the pilots and 49% to the Arabian Financial group, the airline will be managed by a financial team handled by the new Arabian investor and CAXDAC, and the new administration will be managed by the consulting team that was created by ACDAC for the purpose of chapter 11 proceedings who in due time will come to audit the company and elaborate a realistic plan of operation with a new and serious management team.

The pilots’ pension fund, CAXDAC the mayor creditor of the chapter 11 proceedings is going to be the actual owner of the 51% of the company not the pilots union as all the press is announcing.

AV757
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:31 am

"MR. MATURRO": Well...I think they wil RICE their salaries, its typical here in Colombia. And i dininh HERD it, im just saying. Check your spelling.

Why would they care if AV goes bankrupt...theres nice little Fenix and P5 to give them a job afterwards!

Fokker50: Ummm....did dragacol employees care that the company would go bankrupt....A guy who carried logs around made $2 million a month....
 
a300aa
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:41 am

Airlines beeing owned by their employees or unions are definetly a bad decision.Pilots, and ground personnell knows how to fligh and how to work, but not how to manage, even if they put somebody with experience, they will have vote on the board of directors, remember UA.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:48 am

I stand by Efromovich! For me it doesnt look good if pilots start to put their nose into the airline's management strategy. Look at RG, and its previous management structure through the Ruben Berta Foundation (which includes representatives of staff categories, cinluding pilots) and you will reach and explanation for the financial situation of RG nowadays!

I hope, in the interest of Colombia in general and AV in particular, that AV goes to Efromovich.

Check out below pics of Oceanair (C1), regional airline in Brazil owned by oil-business magnate Efromovich:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Bernardo Andrade
View Large View Medium

Photo © Fabio Laranjeira





[Edited 2004-10-12 23:49:43]
 
Fokker50
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:52 am

Well RCS763av:
It's only my opinion, also, as you said I think they wil RICE their salaries, its typical here in Colombia, this is not the situation, pilots as AV757 knows that if they make that, the airline will go under as VX. Later, when AV gets out from the chapter 11, they can think in it, but now I don't think so.

Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
757MDE
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:53 am

Remember AV won't be owned by the Pilots themselves, but by CAXDAC, and CAXDAC has or at least will have a skilled managing team if the time comes.

Dragacol is a very different thing, the amount of corruption there is just unbelievable (even for Colombian standards), I don't think it's the same in AV.
Not only Dragacol, but millionaire pension at Foncolpuertos...and the list goes on.

I don't think they'll rise their wages that much as you say, CAXDAC could be in possesion of 51% of the airline if the deal is made, but it's not like they can do whatever they want, and if such a rise is ever tried to be made they won't get along that easy.

[Edited 2004-10-13 00:02:34]
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:59 am

I just hope AV goes to Efromovich.

I dont want a Varig, A Delta, or a Sabena.

I couldnt stand to see AV die because of bad management.
 
a300aa
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:06 am

The best for AV , really is to keep their unions, away from management, and ownership.
I think Efromovich will be better offer. At least he knows how to manage big companies.
 
av757
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:45 am

RCS763av If you can not stand to see AV die because of bad management, you already forgot what happened to ACES under Juan Emilio Posada's bad management policies during the Alianza Summa fiasco.

And if it were not for chapter 11, AV would have gone the same way Aces did and would have disappeared already. If AV is to survive and recover no matter who will buy or own the company it will require the mandatory change of the actual management group of Juan Emilio Posada and his gang. Sinergy Group with the Colombian Coffee Growers Federation insist on keeping his administration and management policies intact.

AV757
 
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tavong
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:33 am

"Why would they care if AV goes bankrupt...theres nice little Fenix and P5 to give them a job afterwards!"

In fact if P5 or Fenix can do them jobs why there are still thee INTER pilots unemplyed at this time? And how they can grow so quickly that the would need to hire the hipotetical "ex-AV" pilots???? I think that there won't be any P5 of Fenix giving jobs if AV goes bankrupt.

Anyway has AV757 already said the plans is to CAXDAC to have the 51% of the airline but CAXDAC does not mean UNION (anyway i don't think unios are so bad has someone post there) and i don't think that they would put AV in the path to bankrupcy since there won't be "mama Colombia" to support them if they fail.

Anyway at this time we still don't know wich plan will be better.

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm

Hey


ok, RSC763av: it's not that simple, you can't acomadate a whole airline as AV(by the way the biggest in Colombia) in a little paper airline like Fenix as my good friend Fokker50 said or in P5, it's not only crew members, it is mechanics, F/A, ground personal engeneers etc... by the way, you are talking like if P5 were a millonaire and solid standing airline that have no econimical problems, even Fenix that haven't started yet, so i think with all respect of the case that your argument was poor and midiocre, not a big deal RSC763av just think about it.


Regards

MATURRO 727
 
wimpycol
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:26 pm

Hello AV757

Thanks for the info!
Do you have more details about this Sheik??
Do we know nothing about him! I can't beleive this...

regards
Willem Alberto
Colombia... can't wait to be there again!!!!!!!!!!
 
av757
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:21 pm

From reply 25

ok, RSC763av: it's not that simple, you can't accommodate a whole airline as AV(by the way the biggest in Colombia) in a little paper airline like Fenix as my good friend Fokker50 said or in P5, it's not only crew members, it is mechanics, F/A, ground personal engineers etc... by the way, you are talking like if P5 were a millionaire and solid standing airline that have no economical problems, even Fenix that haven't started yet

Since the aviation business has started to improve, operational costs have sky rocketed once more due to mayor increases in petroleum prices around the world. This also hurts all airlines since it is the major operational cost of operation. And the remaining airlines in Colombia do not have the infrastructure, equipment or capacity to handle the actual passenger volume of the country.

Aerorepublica P5 was looking around for 2 more DC9 Series 80's to lease but the prices on those right now are in the US$ 130 to 150 thousand a month range; that is extremely high price to pay for them since the majority of their leases are in the $65 to 90 thousand range when they managed to contract them 2 years ago, so I do not see P5 growing at the moment, also they have not managed to get OPSPECS from the FAA yet so I do not see them operating to the United States soon. So their expansion plans are very limited in a foreseeable future.

The latest news from Fenix Colombia whose plans are to start operation with 5 airplanes, which will not solve much of the passenger capacity issue. In late November they will have all of their required paper work for the certification process with the Colombian Aeronautica Civil, and after they do present their project it will take approximately another 6 months to complete the certification process on part of the aeronautical authorities and another 3 months probably to start operation.

After the Alianza Summa fiasco, AV, MM and VX had a total fleet of 57 aircraft in total, and there are only 35 left after the disappearance of VX.

AV and MM have not managed to pick up the amount of lost passenger capacity that was available with 22 less airplanes in the fleet, Aerorepublica and West Caribbean and Satena with Aires have grown substantially, and gained some of these passengers but still do not have the combined seat capacity to fill this gap, and if AV and MM disappear it will be nearly impossible to replace that seating capacity of 35 airplanes on a very short term, so the Colombian passenger will end up paying the consequences, and the price of tickets will eventually rise due to the demand to get any available seat on any available flight.

According to the latest Colombian Government study, Alianza Summa left 3000 lost jobs and unemployed, if AV and MM go under that will be another 4000 direct and about 10000 more in indirect jobs lost related to the aviation industry in the country.

So I do not see how the remaining operating airlines are going to provide the passenger capacity that is needed so as not to paralyze the country, and who is going to hire all of those who become unemployed. Including me.

Regards:
AV757
 
757MDE
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:32 am

It's not only that P5 and the eventual Fenix would not have enough places to hire AV's people if it went bankrupt (which by all sakes I hope not!), they don't even have places to hire CURRENT unemployed Pilots, remember there are lots of them outside, Aces', Inter's, AeroTaca's... and lots of newcomers that don't even have a chance to prove themselves. Things are IMPROVING, that's right, but it doesn't mean they're GOOD. By now, they're just LESS WRONG and with good expectations, but not really good whatsoever.
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:17 am

Hey


AV757:

again, thank's for your info, now, can you tell me a number of aviation uneployed people her in Colombia?

now assuming that you are an AV pilot, i want to ask you how do you see AV's future, how many people are going in and out of the airline evry week/month/year ?


thanks


MATURRO727
 
av757
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:12 am

Yes sir I am a Boeing 757/767 pilot for AV, I have flown with AV the last 26 years.

Avianca's future can only be seen if, a major and total change in the actual admistration occurs, a completely revised macro economic financial plan is applied, and to start an aggressive plan to really compete with on time reliability and passenger service.

That can be accomplished with all the help and knowledge of the human talent that is still left in this company, that the Alianza Summa administrative team never bothered to take into account; they only trampled it.

It is a shame that they came to wipe out this airline and they just did not make it happen.

AV757
 
bongo
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:11 am

AV757:

Welcome to my respected users list !!
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:24 am

Hey


AV757: thank's for your opinion and your point of veiw!


P.S. don't worry you are already in my RR list since i read your first post !
 
757MDE
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:28 am

By the way, Inter just entered in US' "Clinton List" which hinders them from doing any kind of transaction with any US entity or citizen, any bank account or good they have there is frozen also (it's the same list where AeroContinente entered some time ago and had to be "reborn" as NuevoContinente).
Now I think this is the end for Inter.... what a pity!


View Large View Medium

Photo © Diego Andres Torres Espinel
View Large View Medium

Photo © Diego Andres Torres Espinel




RCS763av now with those Pilots out would good P5 and non-existant-yet Fenix have enough places for all them? for all of AV's Pilots if AV went bust?

I DON'T THINK SO!

Avianca Forever! (even with their numerous flaws which I think are going to be solved with time).

[Edited 2004-10-15 02:45:52]
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:13 am

Well, other airlines would have to take over AV´s routes. They would take the MD-83s, 757s, F-50s ad maybe 767s in and they would need pilots.
 
757MDE
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 am

Not that fast and not in enough quantity like to be a problem solver in the short term, and the unemployed Pilots need that, solutions for the short term precisely.
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
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tavong
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:33 am

Well, other airlines would have to take over AV´s routes. They would take the MD-83s, 757s, F-50s ad maybe 767s in and they would need pilots.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHE i really don't think so, taking all those planes (if they are not taken by the lessors) and putting them on routes if AV goes bust is like sayin that they can build up a new airline of the size of Avianca (in Colombian measures) in just one day, it's impossible, if AV goes bust the local market would become a complete dissaster......

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:37 am

Im just hoping that situation never happens when im alive. Well, if pilots say they can manage it better, let them do it.
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:26 pm

Hey!



RCS763av: man what you just said is relly crazy! it is not that simple ! you are talking like if a new airline could replace AV in a couple hours ! do you relly mean like AV goes out of buseniss and an X airline takes place covering same routes, and leasing the same planes or better though buying them !

man, you are out of your mind!!!


MATURRO727
 
hardiwv
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:01 pm

Nobody gave any really reliable details of the Sheik as yet...this seems quite unsave business...

If AV could secure the investment of the Brazilian magnate (who is someone well known, with cash investment, and with substantial business experience), I think AV has to go for him. This seems a less risky opportunity.

Pilots and unions should stay away of management and perform the job they are suppose to.

Hardi
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:07 am

Hardiwv; as much as I would have my sympathies with the "Arab solutions", I strongly dislike these secretive manners involved. I canNOT see any proper reasons why the identity of that "sheikh" cannot be disclosed !
 
Fokker50
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RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:00 am

Well RCS763av:
For your hypotesis of the replacement of AV, here in Colombia is very hard to make that in only a couple of yrs, as my friend MATURRO said, look, here in Colombia the people is very careful at the time of chosing an airline.
Here in Colombia, from the porblems that AV had in the past 15 yrs, like the Pablo Escobar bomb, the kidnap of the Fokker from BGA, the Accident of the 747 in Madrid, look, this are some facts that for the people is hard to find, for example if AV goes banckrupt the new paper airline Fenix could not replace itm because for us the Colombians is very hard to trust in something new, they are affraid if the plane crashes because this airline is too new, and for the technic departament of the airline is also new to handle this. Think in P5, some people were very careful with them in the begining, but from 15 yrs to now, is the second airline in Colombia.
Mas vale malo conocido, que bueno por conocer.

That is true, as you think the marketing of a new thing (not only the aviation) is hard to became susessfull in only a couple of yrs, that in the United states, but not here in Colombia.
Be realistic.
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
Fokker50
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:34 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:38 am

From the Reply #37
If the pilots could do it better, why do they not quit AV, because in the JE Posada's management is not possible to make it.
If they are making a "new" and "reliable" airline, and they are too secure that they can manage it very well, why do they didn't started operations???
If they can manage an airline as well they say, whay Fenix does not start ops now???


Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
ACES320
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 am

Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administrative and financial juggles? It is the result of Santo Domingo's group managerial Colombian style which so much has cost to the country.
Not only that, Don Julio is trying to get rid of these non-strategic asset as soon as possible as there are no reason to keep it in his business portfolio. In the meanwhile people are trying to cut their brain trying to solve a fate that was sealed too much time ago. Do you think somebody else beyond this forum cares about AV's future? It was thrown to the bin and now is the prey of the economy buzzards trying to squezze some profits. As hard as it sounds and no aim to offend anybody as I consider pilots deeds are much worth it but are not the way.
LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:18 am

Fokker50: You were telling me that the pilots cared about the airline and they would mange it well, now i said, ok,let them do it...why did you attack my post?
 
MATURRO727
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:17 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:17 pm

Hey!


RCS763av: ok you got a point there, but you really want to know why Fokker50, me and lot people more attacked your post(s)? ok... because you are loosing credibility, your last posts have been a total mess, so we thought that was another of your naughty posts ! no big deal, just try to improve RCS763av.

"crea fama y acuestate a dormir"

Thank's

MATURRO727
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:04 pm

Ummm....then Fokker50 has to improve his reading comprehension. He can´t attck my post like that by not even reading it well.
 
757MDE
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:45 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:36 am

Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administrative and financial juggles? It is the result of Santo Domingo's group managerial Colombian style which so much has cost to the country.
Not only that, Don Julio is trying to get rid of these non-strategic asset as soon as possible as there are no reason to keep it in his business portfolio. In the meanwhile people are trying to cut their brain trying to solve a fate that was sealed too much time ago. Do you think somebody else beyond this forum cares about AV's future? It was thrown to the bin and now is the prey of the economy buzzards trying to squezze some profits. As hard as it sounds and no aim to offend anybody as I consider pilots deeds are much worth it but are not the way.


That's true, but there's no point on thinking on that. What AV needs is solutions to their problems, whichever source they came from and although I repeat I agree with what you said, I also agree with AV757 when he says Juan Emilio's gotta go and when he says their pensions are in a limbo...
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
Summa767
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:00 am

AcesA320, I completely agree with you. AV financial troubles are not something new. In the past the airline has lost money for many years, and only kept going by Bavaria's cash injections. It is only now, after much pain, that AV looks viable.
I hope that whoever takes over the management will build on that and lead Avianca to steady growth.
AV757 mentions outstanding passenger service and punctuality. It is exactly this that Aces achieved unde JE Posada.
 
Fokker50
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:34 am

RE: Avianca To Arab "sheik" Or Brazilian Magnate?

Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:38 am

Well to all, sorry for my late replies:
RCS763av:
Look, I'm attacking nyour posts because as MATURRO said, your posts are loosing credibility, but that is also my point of view, all the points of view have different opinions and you're giving yours, and my opinion from your distinct replies.

757MDE:
When you replied
Has anybody in this forum tried to figure out that Avianca's trouble are not the result of Alianza Summa demise nor Posada's administrative and financial juggles? It is the result of Santo Domingo's group managerial Colombian style which so much has cost to the country.
This is not a completely fact. In part, the Santo Domingo's group is guilty in the AV situation, but in the JE Posada's administration, you must be wrong.
If the JE posada's administration was so well manged, why AV is now having again finnancial problems???
Why he has not good relationship between administration and pilots???
Look, and this, why the "operacion tortuga" from the pilots against the AV community? because of JE Posada.

Summa767:
I completely agree with you. AV financial troubles are not something new. In the past the airline has lost money for many years, and only kept going by Bavaria's cash injections. It is only now, after much pain, that AV looks viable.

Well problems are not new, but from the Summa project this number of loss, that is absurd for an airline to spend more and more to survive, actually, AA nor UA have all this money injevtions for only one month, Ok, AV in this past period had some positive numbers, but that money is not in the AV bank counts, the question is were? because if this money is in the bank or in their different acounts that AV have, whay do they are still in loss, if they can dispose of that money???
simply absurd.

Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!

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