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Buyantukhaa
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Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:01 pm

From ATW/FT:

Airbus shareholders EADS and BAE Systems are expected to approve marketing of the A350 to airlines around year end, Chief Executive Noel Forgeard said in an interview with the Financial Times.

The A350 would be a derivative of the A330-200 but would have 1,000 nm of extra range--up to 7,600 nm--to compete with the 7E7. It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7.

Forgeard said the new aircraft could be ready to enter service in 2009. He added that the program would cost between eur2 billion and eur3 billion and that Airbus would apply for between eur700 million and eur1 billion in repayable launch aid from France, Germany, the UK and Spain as allowed by the 1992 US-EU agreement on government assistance. "We shall obviously apply for refundable launch loans," he said, but noted the project is "absolutely financeable by Airbus if we have no launch loans. This is a derivative, not a new program."


http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4646&CMP=NLC-dailynewsletter
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RayChuang
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:47 pm

Alas, it's going to cost way more than €2 billion to develop the so-called A350.

Going to a bleedless system of driving power accessories will need a complete redesign of much of the fuselage of the plane, and the switch to a new wing will also be quite expensive, too. My guess is that the total cost may end up more like around €5 billion.
 
MEA-707
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:52 pm

This plane sounds quite heavy... What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement which airlines like Lufthansa, Monarch and Thai Airways might like better for their regional flights? Won't the A350 be too much airplane for them?
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keesje
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:09 pm


Bleedless Engines .. no indications for that ..


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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:52 am

Keesje:

"It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7."

So it seems that they will.
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Ken777
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:00 am

Does this mean that the 330 is a white elephant? Sounds like it as the 350 should be a far more efficient plane.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:02 am

Does this mean that the 330 is a white elephant? Sounds like it as the 350 should be a far more efficient plane.

Judgin from the sales, no  Big grin And in any case the 350 will be 15-20 years younger. Of course it will be more efficient.
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SNATH
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:04 am

MEA-707,

What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement

Bingo. That's what I've been wondering too. It looks as if Airbus is trying to
compete with the 7E7-8 or possibly -9 (since the A350 is supposed to be
larger than the -8) and let the 7E7-3 take over the 757/A300 replacement
market.

BuyantUkhaa,

I think there has been talk to modify the 7E7 engines to be bleed-air ones
for the A350. In fact, if the 747Adv goes ahead, it will also need bleed-air
versions of the 7E7 engines to cut design costs (isn't it ironic or what?).
Airbus will probably do the same.

Tony
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gigneil
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:07 am

Brief thoughts:

Bleed air/bleedless versions of the engines will be an easy fix.

Rolls has already told Airbus they want future developments to focus on the Trent 1000.

The Trent 1000 is a fair sight bigger than the 700. Will require more ground clearance.

With the PW4000 taking a fair share of orders on the 330, they will have to consider PW as a partner for the 350 or risk not selling planes to the very target markets (people who want more range from an A330 family craft for commonality)

N
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:10 am

Tony:

This is probably the trouble when using a new engine concept on an existing airframe. Compatibility issues - adapting "old" airframes to new engines (A350) and new engines to old airframes (B747ADV). I expect these to be temporary issues, as probably all new (that is, designed from scratch) airframes from now on will start using bleedless engines. But then again, when the DC-9 / BAC1-11 / B727 were introduced everybody thought wing-mounted engines were done for.
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SNATH
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:18 am

Hey,

probably all new (that is, designed from scratch) airframes from now on will start using bleedless engines.

You're probably right. However, the A350 is not a plane designed from scratch.
Apart from the cost, Airbus wants to have it flying as soon as possible. So, they
might not be able to afford the time redesigning its systems to take advantage
of the bleedless engines. Ditto with the B747Adv. So, probably, those two will
have bleed-air engines.

But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a computer geek.  Wink/being sarcastic

Tony
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frugalqxnwa
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:23 am

This is one big cat-fight just ahead, and it will be interesting to watch!

The adaptability of older airframes to newer engines is certainly a big issue, but is feasable. Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Trent 1000, they may just take a few pages from the 737; flatten the bottom of the nacelle, mount the engine ahead of the wing, lengthen the nose gear.

However, I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the water!!
 
SNATH
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:16 am

However, I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the water!!

Most likely it will in performance, but not in price.

Tony
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by738
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:20 am

Wasnt it Airbus who gloated about Boeing creating variants of older models with aging original airframe design instead of building new ones ????? How old is the original A330 design now ????
 
kl911
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:44 am

If the A350 will sell way better than the 7E7 ( At this moment price is a big factor for airlines, plus current A330 operators will probably choose commonality of the A350 ) Boeing will be in BIG trouble to earn back the investments.

Just my 2 euri

KL911
 
radelow
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:52 am

Aren't the engine manufacturers making bleed-air versions of these new motors as well? I think that's what Airbus is referring to.

Mark
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:57 am

This will hurt the 332&3 sales as much as 7e7. The design will be less efficient than the 7e7, but extra seats will keep the seat costs down, and Airbus will keep the price down, so might catch some of the market.

Amazing how the 7e7 has put airbus on the backfoot!

Ruscoe
 
transswede
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:00 am

"Aren't the engine manufacturers making bleed-air versions of these new motors as well? I think that's what Airbus is referring to."

Yes indeed. Those same modifications would be used on the 747-Advanced, if that ever becomes reality.
 
Marcus
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:12 am

To some of you this might sound like a stupid question but here it goes...

What are the differences between air-bleed and bleedless engines?, I don't mean just visually.
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jcded
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:54 am

Bleed air is used in the aircraft for ventilation and to power some systems, the bleedless engine would have a generator built in and power the systems electrically. The theoretical advantages are less weight (no titanium air ducts) simpler systems and less loss of power since air is no longer removed from the engine (1st stage if I remember right)
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Richard28
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:09 am

Marcus,

normal engines bleed air from the main engine to a generator to power the electrical systems of the aircraft - this means that not all the incoming air reaches the combustion part of the engine, to give thrust.

Bleedless engines do not "bleed" this air, instead all of the air goes through the engine, to give thrust, making them more efficent.

With a bleedless engine, electircal power for the aircraft needs to be supplied via an alternative source - eg battery power.

Think this is right - I'm sure someone will pick up if i've got it wrong  Smile

Rich.
 
keesje
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:27 am

bleedair is used mostly for pneumatics and airco, but also to drive e.g. hydraulic pumps and to start (other) engines..

in "bleedless" engines energy is tapped by bigger generators to power the actuators / systems.

The required energy for the aircraft systems still comes from the engines but it is hoped in a more efficient way.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:34 am

How old is the original A330 design now ????

About 30 years by my count.  Big grin
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:38 am

they will have to consider PW as a partner for the 350 or risk not selling planes to the very target markets (people who want more range from an A330 family craft for commonality)

Considering that Boeing wont be offering a PW in this future market segment either, I'd say (with history as my reference; e.g., 757) the above point is moot.

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DfwRevolution
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:47 am

Most likely it will in performance, but not in price.

Actually... the 7E7-8 list for 110 million USD, which is very competitive pricing. The current A330-200 list for 130 million USD (minimum) and the current generation 763ER begin at 120 million USD.

Boeing is saving huge amounts of money by bringing on risk-sharing partners and cutting back on labor cost for final assembly. If Airbus wants to beat Boeing on pricing, they have some work to do.

Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Trent 1000, they may just take a few pages from the 737; flatten the bottom of the nacelle, mount the engine ahead of the wing, lengthen the nose gear.

And in doing so... Airbus would be violating Boeing's patent on the cantilievered engine pylon. Boeing has the rights to that technique and I doubt they would give it away.

The A350 would be a derivative of the A330-200 but would have 1,000 nm of extra range--up to 7,600 nm--to compete with the 7E7. It would use the engines Rolls-Royce and GE are developing for the 7E7.

That 1,000 nm of range that the A350 lacks, relative to the 7E7, will haunt Airbus. The 772ER blew A343 sales away by a lesser margin than 1,000 nm and we all saw how the under-legged 764ER competed against the A332.

A 763-sized aircraft with 8,500nm range will blossom the Asia-North America market.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:30 am

Boeing redesigned the 737 in the early '80s so they could switch from JT8Ds to CFM-56 engines. If Airbus needs to get more ground clearance for the Trent 1000, they may just take a few pages from the 737; flatten the bottom of the nacelle, mount the engine ahead of the wing, lengthen the nose gear.

And in doing so... Airbus would be violating Boeing's patent on the cantilievered engine pylon. Boeing has the rights to that technique and I doubt they would give it away.

Will this patent expire by the time the 350 comes out? Or has it already expired?
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gigneil
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:33 am

Considering that Boeing wont be offering a PW in this future market segment either, I'd say (with history as my reference; e.g., 757) the above point is moot.


Perhaps... but the 757 and 767 are, in fact, different aircraft. The A350 would be best targeted as a supplemental frame to an existing A330 fleet.

N
 
windshear
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:04 pm

Noel Forgeard is that imitation or is that improvising?

Boaz...
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flybyguy
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:44 pm

If the A350 ends up being more successful than the 787 solely by price, then Boeing will have whoever is elected president place heavy import tariffs on Airbus aircraft. At least in the US it will be cheaper to go Boeing.

Don't get me wrong however I have no preference for Airbus or Boeing, however when American jobs are on the line the I believe US government must do everything in its power to protect the interests of its people.
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MxCtrlr
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:52 pm

I just find it ironic that Airbus has been putting the 7E7 down for all of this time and, now that orders are coming in for it (at last count, Boeing had 200 or so deposits for the type), suddenly Airbus wants to create their version of an aircraft they have said from the beginning had no market. Make up your mind, Airbus!

At 1,000 nm farther range and a two-year jump on the "A350", I think the 7E7 will be the aircraft to bring Boeing back to the forefront.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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keesje
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:57 pm

"How old is the original A330 design now ????
About 30 years by my count. "

That says a lot about your count..  Big grin


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Udo
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:10 pm

All people who find it so ironic that Airbus now builds the A350...Boeing once loudly announced that there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...and what did they do? B737NG...

Airbus' negative talk about the B7E7 was just propaganda...they have always known it would be a threat. It's exactly the same stupid propaganda Boeing always uses to deny Airbus aircraft market chances...so all you "experts": just try to think ONCE before writing the same BS again and again whenever one manufacturer announces something...


Regards
Udo
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:20 pm

What modifications would the fuselage need in order to accomodate the systems associated with bleedless engines? If bleed air is used to power the hydraulic and electrical systems, wouldn't the changes be limited to hydraulic pumps and power generators? I know there would have to be a new system for ventilation, but this doesn't seem to be anything major.

Can anyone elaborate on this? I might have to start a new thread on Tech/Ops, who knows.
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NWFltAttendant
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:23 pm

Too may commom aircraft for the market. How many different version of the long range twin do we need ?... this is getting insane. I realize theres specific applications for each aircraft, but airlines are only going to buy so many aircraft.
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StickShaker
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:19 pm

..."What about a lighter 757/A-306 replacement"...

..."Bingo. That's what I've been wondering too. It looks as if Airbus is trying to compete with the 7E7-8 or possibly -9 (since the A350 is supposed to be
larger than the -8) and let the 7E7-3 take over the 757/A300 replacement
market"....

Airbus have not yet (publicly) addressed the issue of a shorter range A306 replacement (and 7e7-3 competitor) but it is too large a market for them to ignore. It will be interesting to see what approach they take - further details may emerge towards the end of this year.

StickShaker

 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm

"How old is the original A330 design now ????
About 30 years by my count. "


That says a lot about your count..

How so? IMO the A330 fuselage still looks a hell of a lot like the A300. A330 specifically, maybe 10-15 years. I would really like to see Airbus come up with a NEW single-deck widebody fuselage...I'm sick of the A300 look.
 
keesje
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:17 pm

FriendlySkies, ever noticed the 707, 727, 737 and 757 have the same fuselage? Check the belly of the 727 and 757 forward and aft the wing.. surprised? Saying the 738 is a 45yrs old design.. Well, by your count..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:23 am

I must say, I'm disappointed in some of you (especially you, ConcordeBoy  Wink/being sarcastic ) in failing to notice what Airbus is implying with the A350, though, of course, not publically saying:

The A340-300 is dead.

Of course, it will continue to live on until EIS of the A350, if it is launched. Just as the 767 will continue to be produced until slightly after the 7E7 is introduced (longer as the KC-767). But I think its safe to assume that Airbus now sees the end of the road for the A343. You'll also notice the rhetoric about extended ETOPS has died down recently. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69
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N766UA
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:41 am

I'm sorry but I understood the 7E7 was not a threat to Airbus? Yeah huh... look at you now, Airbus.
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RT514
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:48 am

I'm sorry but I understood the 7E7 was not a threat to Airbus? Yeah huh... look at you now, Airbus.

I'm sorry but I understand the A380 was not a threat to Boeing? Yeah huh... look at you now, Boeing.


Get a grip. You have obviously confused the difference between business talk and actual plans of action. Lip service is cheap.
 
N766UA
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:57 am

Last I checked Boeing was not building an A380 rival. So what is the point of your "Yeah huh... look at you now, Boeing" comment?

Lip service is cheap.

Especially from Airbus, as I was pointing out.
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RT514
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:01 am

Last I checked Boeing was not building an A380 rival.

I've heard talk of a magical 747Adv...
...or is that just cheap lip service? (in this case, coming from Boeing).

See what I mean? Talk is cheap. In fact, Airbus has put more money where their mouth is as a competitor is actually going to be built. I'm not holding my breath for a 747adv.

Anything else you want to know?
 
N766UA
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:03 am

Upgrading the 747 hardly makes it compete with a plane that holds 100+ more people. Unless there is another 747 concept floating around out there?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:07 am

Perhaps... but the 757 and 767 are, in fact, different aircraft. The A350 would be best targeted as a supplemental frame to an existing A330 fleet.

Still a moot point.

Since neither company is offering a PW option in that market segment, the only A330-x2x replacement choice would be to 1) go with another engine or 2) not replace them.




I must say, I'm disappointed in some of you (especially you, ConcordeBoy ) in failing to notice what Airbus is implying with the A350, though, of course, not publically saying:

The A340-300 is dead.


Um, Hamlet, cher.... do you seriously(?!?!?!?!) believe that I wouldn't have picked up on that? Do a search, I've mentioned it in 4 threads  Big grin
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RT514
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:08 am

N766UA, Boeing had always preached the trend of frequency and denounced capacity. If they held true to that theory, upgrading a large aircraft like the 747 would be superfluous. Obviously, they've had second thoughts.

Point is, talk is cheap. As much as it can be said about one, it can most certainly be said about the other, hence the validity when I turned your quote around. It's just as real one way as it is in the opposite direction. No debate there.

[Edited 2004-10-19 20:09:33]

[Edited 2004-10-19 20:10:09]
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:21 am

I've always had a certain respect for Airbus until they announced this. This is just plane despicable. The reason they get away with Low Prices for Americans is because the American Dollar is worth so much over in Europe. I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the sky.. (No pun intended)
Puhdiddle
 
RT514
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:27 am

The reason they get away with Low Prices for Americans is because the American Dollar is worth so much over in Europe.
I hope the 7E7 blows the A350 out of the sky.


Ummm... no, that's not it.

Have you compared the U.S. dollar to the Euro over the last few years? The Euro is blowing the U.S. dollar out of the sky.
 
nosedive
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:10 am

From http://www.xe.com/:
Live mid-market rates as of 2004.10.19 19:55:16 GMT.
Euro to USD
 
1.00 EUR=1.25224 USD
1 USD = 0.798572 EUR

Yes the Dollar is losing ground to the Euro....understatement of the century
Using DFWRevolution's numbers Actually... the 7E7-8 list for 110 million USD, which is very competitive pricing. The current A330-200 list for 130 million USD (minimum) and the current generation 763ER begin at 120 million USD. , we get this:

New 7e7-8 $110,000,000 or €87,842,920
New A330-2 $ 130,000,000 or € 103,814,360
New 763ER $120,000,000 or €95,828,640

But big deal, the advantage to Boeing is that the dollar is weak. Let's assume the 350 will sell at €110,000,000 new. That's $137,746,400. Of course market is always in flux so don't expect these numbers to be the same come 2008.
 
planemaker
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:31 am

So,assuming the $110-million list price for the 7E7, what will be break even?

Don't forget to take into account ANA's "launch discount" and subsequent sales discounts to other buyers. As well, the engine costs per airframe also have to be deducted from the net sales amount.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Forgeard: A350 To Start, Bleedless Engines

Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:16 am

Well, from what I read in a parallel thread - the engines for the A350 will in fact be the bleed-air adapted versions of the bleedless engines. What is the point? Apparently those engines are more efficient than the current ones - even if "downgraded" to the conventional concept. So there must be something other than just bleedlessness that makes these engines interesting. Or is it just standard technological evolution?
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