toltommy
Posts: 2462
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:39 pm

From www.commercialaviationtoday.com:

The Financial Times reports that Indianapolis-based ATA Airlines is expected to file for bankruptcy protection as early as today, with AirTran, America West and Hawaiian Airlines among the carriers lining up to acquire parts of the company's assets.

According to the report, AirTran is in discussions with ATA about acquiring the company's assets at Chicago's Midway Airport, where ATA operates its biggest low-fare base. AirTran also reportedly is interested in ATA's young Boeing 737-800s, and could file its own reorganization plan along with ATA, in a "pre-packaged bankruptcy."

AirTran also reportedly has been talking with Hawaiian Airlines, which is interested in ATA's 757-operated Hawaiian routes. These also have attracted the interest of America West, which was rumored earlier to have been interested in ATA's Midway assets as well.

AirTran and America West are both scheduled to file their third quarter financial results on Wednesday.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting... What would a prepackaged CH11 filing do for AirTran? Would it allow them to get out of the contracts they have with Boeing? Would it give them cost reductions to fight Delta at ATL if they file? Help me out here, I'm trying to see how they need to file bankruptcy!
 
SHUPirate1
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:41 pm

TOL-ATA would be filing the prepackaged bankruptcy, not AirTran...
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azjubilee
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:41 pm

WHERE does it day Air Tran wouold file bankruptcy? ATA is the one with the problems... Air Tran, America West and Hawaiian are said to be ready to cherry pick the assetts ATA has.


AZJ
 
toltommy
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:45 pm

Read it again folks, I'm not reading this wrong....

"AirTran also reportedly is interested in ATA's young Boeing 737-800s, and could file its own reorganization plan along with ATA"

Could file it's OWN plan.... Along with ATA....
 
geg2rap
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:46 pm

this is one way to get around the union seniority arguement AWA/ata were rumored to be having
 
alphascan
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:48 pm

Good catch Tommy. I missed it the first time through.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
SHUPirate1
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:52 pm

What are they going to do then?

Airtran: Northern Georgia District Court of the United States, I would like to file Chapter 11...

Judge: Accepted, what do you plan to do now in bankruptcy?

Airtran: Emerge, we just wanted to be in bankruptcy for the day so we could tell ATA's employees to go find a new job...

Am I missing something here?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
quickmover
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:57 pm

Wow! I didn't see that TOLtommy. Do you suppose that what they mean is a plan to renegotiate the leases?
 
toltommy
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:57 pm

That's what I'm trying to figure out. I don't understand WHY a CH11 filing is needed, unless it gives them a way out of some obligations. I think it has to do with their Boeing contracts more that not taking ATA employees. After all, if they take the 738's they'll need crews immediately, right? Wouldn't they want to reduce their existing 737 order with Boeing if they take ATA's planes? Isn't AirTran's contract with Boeing heavily in Boeing's favor?
 
quickmover
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:02 am

I thought they got a pretty good deal on the 737s or at least that's what they said on the conference calls. Could it be that with Delta going ch11 at some point soon, that they are getting a jump on any advatage that they would have?
 
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mariner
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:04 am

TOLTommy:

You are correct - that is what it says.

I suspect that it is just very badly worded. I suspect that it means that AirTran would file their rescue plan with the bk court at the time of ATA's bk filing.

I think it would be quite difficult for AirTran to persuade a judge to let them enter Chapter 11.

But, you never know.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ua777222
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:06 am

Doesn't some of their if not all of their 737 a/c have winglets? Isn't this the reason that AirTran opted not to get them on their 737's b/c of gate space at some airports? Or are they going to take what 738's that they have that are leased so that they can open new routes until the 737's from Boeing are produced.......

I'm gussing, and only gussing, that with AirTran's filing for BK is so that they an avoid any negotions between unions and other groups hindering the fleet merger and crew aquirement. Wouldn't AirTran have to go through the lease/bank comany to aquire these a/c?

Thanks again.

UA777222

What's AirTrans Airline Code? Writing it out is too much time.

Thanks again!
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
calpilot
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:08 am

Bad catch Tommy!

Gee people figure it out... What they are refering to is Airtran coming into court with a reorganization plan for ATA. (period!) Airtran with all of there cash, would most likely be the one providing the DIP financing for whatever remains of ATA to operate in, or exit from Chap.11.

This would beat America West to the punch and cut them out of the picture?
 
gr8slvrflt
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:08 am

I agree. Either it's worded incorrectly or it means AirTran might file as a participant in the ATA bankruptcy. I believe AirTran's assets far exceeds it's liabilities as this point, making a bankruptcy of it's own impossible.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
roseflyer
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:11 am

While trying to make sense of this, a prepackaged CH11 filing does not mean that Airtran would file for bankruptcy. They would put in a filing that would acquire assets from ATA. They would need to do a CH 11 filing if ATA doesn't liquidate because assets do not come up for sale in Ch 11. If Airtran filed a prepackaged chapter 11 bankruptcy they would not have to pay any taxes on the assets they acquire from ATA for six years. Basically they could do a CH 11 filing and as long as they assure creditors that payments will continue to be made, they can exit in 61 days or less and get a huge tax break. If Airtran does it correctly neither their stock nor bonds issued would be affected.

I highly doubt that any of this would happen, but if you correctly it can really give Airtran a financial advantage. A short term prepackaged (meaning all lessors agree and arrangements are made) filing could let them steal the ATA assets while not having to pay ATA's enourmous lease rates. It is a huge risk, but could be very good. By filing an injunction they are not necessarily filing for bankruptcy themselves, but rather using ATA's bankruptcy to get the lease rates down on the plane, and get an incredibly low lease rate while not affecting their own credit.

(sorry if I misunderstand but that is what I have interpreted it as, I am just an economics major, and not an attorney so I might be completely wrong)

edited for grammer


[Edited 2004-10-25 17:15:51]

[Edited 2004-10-25 17:34:44]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
quickmover
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:11 am

From the yahoo ATAH message board linking a FT article. They are talking about a wet lease deal on the 737s. Take it for what it's worth.



"Financial Times

US low-cost carrier on verge of bankruptcy
By Caroline Daniel in London
Published: October 25 2004 00:02

The problems facing even low-cost carriers in the US are set to be underlined this week with the bankruptcy of ATA, which could come as soon as Monday, and a warning from Independence Air on Wednesday about its deteriorating financial position.

According to a person familiar with the filing, ATA, the tenth largest airline in the US could file for bankruptcy on Monay in Indianapolis. Its financial distress has already attracted a number of interested parties who have been holding discussions in the last few weeks and over the weekend about the airline’s assets.

Discussions involving AirTran are currently the most advanced. It is interested in ATA’s operations at Midway airport in Chicago, and may seek to wet-lease its 737 Boeing aircraft. It could file a separate plan with the bankruptcy court, alongside the ATA filing.

AirTran has also been holding talks with Hawaiian Airlines, which is understood to be interested in taking over ATA’s Hawaiian routes, which use 757 aircraft and are based on the West Coast and Phoenix, according to someone familiar with the talks. "

 
ua777222
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:17 am

Could it be that AirTran is trying to enter the ATA Bankruptcy stating to the courts that they are there as a key player in trying to get the airline out of bankruptcy but that with lack of current funds that AirTran (haha my @$$) has they can only afford so much for this much under these circumstances bla bla bla bla basically getting ATA's a/c and other assets for a very very low price of only 3 easy payments of $19.99....

Thanks again and it would be sweet if someone, with an aviation industry related background, could call this play baised on facts and whatnot, really intrested in this topic. Well, off to school but will post/view throughout the day! Sorry if I gave off the (13 year old armchair CEO BS...)

Thanks again.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
toltommy
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:29 am

I agree that it doesn't make sense, but it is what it is. I don't know what FL plans to claim as liabilities, and let's face it, the rising fuel costs and hurricanes didn't help them in the past few months. They may be in a position where a "prepackaged" bankruptcy filing makes sense. As long as they can show that they have more liaibilities than assets, it shouldn't be hard. And a prepackaged plan keeps outsiders from trying to prevent a reorg.
 
toltommy
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:31 am

I think Roseflyer has it figured out....
 
calpilot
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:35 am

Gee tommy can you read? Maybe you should not be allowed to vote?

Airtran is not the one filling, it's ATA. Airtran in someway, is bringing money to the table. How can you get that through your head?
 
alphascan
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:00 am

CALPilot;

Lighten up! Tommy was merely pointing out the poorly worded line in the article. It could be read to mean several things. It is not clear.

"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
avek00
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:13 am

The article was indeed badly worded - the point is that if AirTran and ATA come to an agreement, AirTran will file a Plan of Reorganization in the ATA bankruptcy case that will involve asset sales/lease assumptions from ATA to AirTran.

Live life to the fullest.
 
MidnightMike
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:15 am


Damn, subject of the posting screwed me up, I saw AirTran & I said what the hell......
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CATAvNews
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:20 am

OK -- Since I first published the article in question, I couldn't let this one go. It was perhaps not well written, but to clear up these questions, if AirTran files a reorganization plan, it will be FOR ATA, NOT AirTran.

I'm not attorney, but as I understand it, a pre-packaged bankruptcy is a way for a company to restructure with the consent of most of its stakeholders. In this case, AirTran would be filing a plan that would set-out whatever deal it reached with ATA management. I believe competing plans could be filed, however, as we see with Hawaiian Airlines' bankruptcy. So another airline could file a competiting plan and try to make the case that its plan presents a better option for creditors.

Daniel-Robert Gooch
Publisher of Commercial Aviation Today
 
SPREE34
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:25 am

Let's see. ATA, I'll use the "T" from that one..........America West, just the "W", west sounds to local...........AirTran, the "A". But it's got to have a new name and livery................ I'VE GOT IT "TWA"
The new combined airline will be TWA TranWorldAir.(one word)Once the bankrupcy was was over, fast expansion could be done using retiring NW DC-9s, hiring the old TWA guys AA screwed. Imagine, non stop from PHX to Dubai, it would be real competition for that new Canadian World outfit.


Disclaimer: I am on prescription pain killers right now

www.TranWorldAir.com
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
dutchjet
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:35 am

A very confusing article indeed, while the article does make reference to an AirTran bankrputcy, it seems quite unlikely that AirTran would go though a bankruptcy proceeding for the purpose of expanding the airline. What does AirTran gain by declaring bankrupcty?

In any case, what I found interesting is how the article describes which airline is interested is which assets of ATA. While many here, including myself, was under the impression that America West was interested in ATA's 757 fleet - for expansion and possible routes to Hawaii in conjunction with the Pleasant Hawaii charter contracts, it now seems that Hawaiian Airlines has entered the game and could be interested in those assets (is Hawaiian financially secure enough for a major expansion?). And, it seems that AirTran may be the one interested in Midway and the 738s.....also a bit of a surprise, there was specualtion that Southwest would take the 738s and talk that Southwest would expand Midway operations, another scenario had America West creating an eastern hub at Midway.

In any case, its still too soon to tell what will happen.....any word about if or when ATA will file a bankruptcy petition? At that point, things will get serious.
 
N1120A
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:35 am

(Discussions involving AirTran are currently the most advanced. It is interested in ATA’s operations at Midway airport in Chicago, and may seek to wet-lease its 737 Boeing aircraft. It could file a separate plan with the bankruptcy court, alongside the ATA filing.)

The plan FL would file with the Bankruptcy court would be one like AA did when they aquired TWA. If ATA liquidates all or part of the company, the creditors would have to have a plan where the debts are satisfied, at least in part. This is where the filing comes in. The reason this would be "pre-packaged" is that ATA Holdings, AWA Holdings and AirTran would make the deals and present the to the court. Likely, AmTran would stay in business as a charter and millitary carrier, as ATA Airlines is just part of that company. HP would present a plan to take the 757s, while FL would present their plan to take the 738s. ATA would likely keep the L-1011s and negotiate lower lease rates on a few 757s. HP might pick up the Pleasant contracts, while FL would pick up MDW lease obligations
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
moose1226
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:06 am

A source within CO, says that CO is iterested in ATA's 757-200/300's. They apparently have the same exit configuration and RB211 variant as CO's seven-fives, and as we know, CO wants as many long range a/c as it can get.
 
NWAFA
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:08 am

NWA is also looking at getting more 757's. Not sure what type of engines are on ATA' (specifically, the -300's).
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
JAXpax
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:11 am

I think the most interesting possibility from this is a more direct war between Southwest and AirTran at Midway.
 
isitsafenow
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:14 am

NWAFA.......I need an explaination. Last night on this site, I read that NW has 5 757's parked at Marana. The person who wrote the post even listed the ship numbers. Taking that in consideration, how can NW be looking for more 757's?.
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NWAFA
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:19 am

Only one of them will be parked, 4 are/have been pulled back in...NWA is thirlled with the performance of the 757-300. I was in a meeting with the company a few weeks back where they said they want more ETOPS 75's...especially -300.

Does anyone know what type of engines are on ATA's 757's (esp. the -300)?
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
airtran737
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:43 am

ATA uses the Rolls Royce engine on it's 757's
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
PHLBOS
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:43 am

Does anyone know what type of engines are on ATA's 757's (esp. the -300)?

Not sure about TZ's 752s but their 753s, I believe are NOT PWs. According to an article on the 753 on a back issue of Airliners magazine; NW was the only customer that opted for the PW engines for the 753.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
quickmover
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:49 am

From the yahoo board

http://trinity.ibj.com/newdaily2/html/daily_story_102504a.html




MONDAY, OCT. 25, 2004


ATA could file bankruptcy this afternoon
From IBJ Reports

Locally based ATA Holdings Corp., parent of ATA Airlines Inc., will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in Indianapolis at 3 p.m., WISH-TV is reporting.

The filing would call for Orlando-based AirTran Holdings Inc. to purchase select ATA assets. ATA, through New York public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, declined to comment.

In a traditional Chapter 11 filing, creditors are kept at bay for months or years while a company tries to restructure debt and develop a survival plan. ATA's filing could be prepackaged, a strategy in which a company maps out its survival plan outside of court, then submits it for speedy court approval, potentially concluding the bankruptcy process in as little as 30 to 45 days.

ATA's financial troubles could have a big impact on the Indianapolis Airport Authority, especially as it proceeds with the $974 million midfield terminal project due for completion in 2008.

The Indianapolis airline--the busiest carrier at Indianapolis International Airport with 24.2 percent of traffic--paid the authority about $6.6 million in 2003 in everything from terminal rent to landing fees.

In bankruptcy, ATA could seek to renegotiate terms of its corporate headquarters lease, at $1.1 million a year, or the lease on its maintenance hangar of $143,000 annually. "We are not in any discussions [with ATA] to the best of my knowledge," Dennis Rosebrough, spokesman for BAA Indianapolis, told IBJ this morning. BAA manages the airport under a contract with the authority.

Under federal law, ATA could not negotiate preferred rates on airport rent or landing fees. ATA currently pays about $2.4 million in terminal and apron rent, and about $2 million in landing fees based on its current 28 daily departures.

ATA's departure from the airport--in part or whole--would likely be filled in to some degree by other carriers.

"I think there clearly are some routes that are going to be picked up'' if ATA retrenches, Rosebrough said.

 
frosty72
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:11 am

What ever happens AirTran has always played their cards right. The recovery of Valu-Jet transiton to AirTran is the best example, and the sense to use the RJ on certain routes. ATA NOT AirTran should be worried.
I am a filmmaker because I dare to dream!
 
avek00
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:33 am

Actually, AirTran does have good reason to be worried if it is successful in picking up some or all of ATA.

The integration costs of even a partial asset purchase/lease assumption deal will run into the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Remember, there's more to integrating two airlines than just a new paint job - among other things, you have to merge the back-office IT and train the employees on the new company's procedures, both of which require massive amounts of capital and lost employee productivity.

When AA purchased TWA's assets, the company spent roughly $1.5 billion to fully integrate the two airlines - a steep price considering that AA only paid $742 million to buy TWA in the first place. While the integration costs for AirTran would undoubtedly be less, they will pose a major risk to AirTran's fiscal health going forward.
Live life to the fullest.
 
ifly2eat
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:01 am

As of 4:30 EST on Monday the U.S. bankruptcy court in Indianapolis has NOT received any filings from ATA. Go back to playing flight sim boys and girls.

P.S. That will teach you Ray and Danielle for getting your news from airliners.net.
Fly the friendly skys and stay out of mine.
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
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ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:16 am

Avek00,

Hopefully, the unions at TZ and FL have some good seniority protection clauses in the union contracts. Here we go again!

And now for all the furloughed TWA people over at FL, where do you want the TZ people to fit in on the seniority list. Please be fair and equitable! Hahaha!

originAAL
lga
 
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BNE
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RE: ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:41 am

The topic has been changed to mention ATA, looking further, then maybe Airtran might file, but that is highly unlikely, they had better not as I own 1,000 shares.





Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
N1120A
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RE: ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:34 pm

I think that ATA could be FL's Morris Air. Much like WN did, they can get a bunch of planes and an instant presence in a good market, at a bargain price. The only question is whether corporate cultures and employees would mesh.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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BNE
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RE: ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:29 pm

Wow, a change of title sure stopped this thread in its tracks,  Laugh out loud,

I made the change of title while at work so didn't really have time to look through the thread, as the first few people were saying get it right. I couldn't believe that Airtran could file, so I changed the name and then added a post of my own.

CatAVnews, welcome to airliners.net,

CommercialAviationToday, good web site for news, not too much so it doesn't take you ages to get through it.




Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
PHLBOS
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RE: ATA To File Prepackaged Bankruptcy?

Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:33 pm

Edited to correct first paragraph.

Two weeks ago, who would have thought that ATA might be filing for bankrupcy before DL? To my knowledge, DL hasn't filed yet either.

Should FL get some or all of TZ's 738s; Joe Leonard's earlier decision to delay delivery of some its 73Gs may have very well proven to be a wise move after all. The TZ 738s could very well be instrumental for FL's addressing any demand surges that could come following US' possible demise.

[Edited 2004-10-26 14:36:42]
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