ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:07 pm

Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:40 pm

There was another topic about this.. but I have inside info from the actuall owner of the aircraft (NOT AIR ATLANTA) the owner is the same owner of Florida West..(partner with the Cueto family) (its an arabic name impossible to remember) a group of cordobeses ! are up in Miami finalizing everything.. and they want to rush it as much as possible..
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:38 pm

Is it the Rasnavad family? FWIA and LanChile have been partners, equity and otherwise, for sometime. Interesting news...
 
PIA747
Posts: 596
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:43 pm

any details on which B747 they are looking at?
 
ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:07 pm

RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:50 am

Yes.. that one LatinAviation.. I couldnt remember the last name.. apparently they started as partners back when the Cueto Family bought their first DC-8 from them back when they where owner of Fast Air only.. apparently they are looking into 2 ex-singapore/Virgin
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
LVTMB
Posts: 293
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:47 am

What routes would A4 use a 742 for? Would that be EZE-MAD?

MB
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:53 am

Any idea on date of delivery?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:03 am

Seeing is believing. I'll cheer when they arrive, and no sooner.

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
miamix707
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:07 am

supposedly they were acquiring MD11s weren't they? I guess that did not go through.
 
Arcano
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:14 pm

AFAIK, Flodira West is owned by Lan Cargo, although I'm not sure the equity they own.
At least, that I read on LAN's balance sheets. BTW; LAN owns former Southern Winds' 767s.

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
LVZXV
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:13 pm

Miamix707:

Correct. Southern Winds had been looking into leasing 2-4 MD-11s through GECAS since May. The first deal fell through in late-June when SW failed to obtain necessary traffic rights to MEX--which was when AR moved in for the kill. Then plans were revived when SW began eyeing up 3 ex-Swiss MD-11s (HB-IWA, IWI, IWQ) in July, but in September it seems the deal was quietly called-off, with HB-IWQ now PP-VTU for RG (Star Alliance colours) and HB-IWA also earmarked for Brazil. I am unaware of the exact reasons as to what went wrong in the 2nd deal, but it wouldn't surprise me if inability to pay the lease rates was one of them.

And yes, LAN's 767s CC-CEN & CC-CML are both ex-Southern Winds (TF-ARB & TF-ARA), the latter of which curiously began its life in 1999 flying for LAPA as LV-ZPL until 2001, and then returned to Argentina in May 2002 as LV-ZYV for SW who subsequently had to take the aircraft off the Argentine register in order to serve MIA once CAT II restrictions came into force in July 2002. But having to pay the Air Atlanta pilots and the leasing rates in US Dollars proved costly, and the two aircraft left the fleet in December 2003 and March 2004 respectively.
SW then announced plans for 3 "new" 767s, to replace the other two and launch services to Mexico (CUN, MEX), but to date, only one replacement has arrived (LV-AIX, ex-N638TW), and it serves MAD 4 x weekly, on codeshare with UX. "Don Bosco", as LV-AIX was christened, has been flying transatlantic almost non-stop since February, so the sooner reinforcements arrive, the better.


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Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography
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Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography



Saludos,

ZXV

P.S. For those who need to fly between EZE and MAD, Southern Winds is not a bad choice...

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Arcano
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:23 pm

ZXV: any idea about the origin of CC-CML? (I mean date). I flew it from LIM in april, wearing the new colors, and what was pure exitement at the beginning became pure dissapointment after boarding.

It looked very old, with no PTVs, ashtrays in the seats etc. Absolutely under LA's 767s standards I was used to it! Even the 732s looked better!

Regards )(

PS: I have to fly a 732 tomorrow, so I'll confirm my last comment! pretty exiting this week: tomorrow: SCL-LSC (La Serena) / thurs.:LSC-CPO (Copiapó) / friday: CPO-SCL, and finally my weekend in Buenos Aires! Sat: SCL-EZE (340!) and monday EZE-SCL (732  Sad -can you believe I've never flown any LAN 320/319??? My only experience with 320s in AF!). I'll let you know!
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
LVZXV
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:13 pm

Arcano:

CC-CML is only 6 years old. It was two years with LAPA (as LV-ZPL), one year in storage in the US, and then two years with Southern Winds/Air Atlanta (as LV-ZYV, then TF-ARA), and arrived in SCL in early March 2004. Regarding the seats, TF-ARA had an unusual 3-class 201-seat layout, with Business, Surf (Premium Economy) and Economy--the latter with 35-inch pitch. A couple of my relations who flew in it said it was extremely comfortable, but of course, there were no PTVs. Did it look something like this when you flew on it?:


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Photo © Cristián García Laborde



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Photo © José Ramón Valero - IBERIAN SPOTTERS
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Photo © José Ramón Valero - IBERIAN SPOTTERS



Sorry if it disappointed you!

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
miamix707
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:32 pm

Thanks ZXV for the info. By the way does Pluna still serve MAD with their 767? Since you said UX codeshares on the SW flight, UX is the code for Pluna right?

Hopefully the 747 if they do get it, gets painted in the complete livery, I hope LV-AIX's color scheme is not their adopted new colors, yuck.
 
LVZXV
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:59 pm

Miamix:

They do. PU (Pluna) operate MVD-GIG-MAD with their 767 CX-PUB, although if ever it goes "technical" or is in for heavy maintenance, RG always have a 767 on stand-by, as they did in the days of the DC-10. There is no codesharing deal that I'm aware of between PU and UX--UX being Spain's Air Europa.


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Photo © Alejandro Ruiz Yañez



I too am a little miffed by Southern Winds' paintwork (or lack thereof), as their fleet of 8 aircraft are wearing 3 or 4 different liveries. In the case of LV-AIX, the only explanation I can offer is that the aircraft is operated by Portugal's Euro Atlantic Airways (MM), and I've noticed that 2 of RG's 767s are also operated by the Portuguese charter carrier, and look(ed) like this:


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Photo © Balazs Pinter
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Photo © José Geraldes



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Photo © Paulo carvalho
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Photo © Carlos A. Morillo Doria



I too hope the 747s will wear the full colours (some of the smartest in Latin America if you ask me), and don't end up resembling either of these:


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Photo © Charly Diaz Azcue
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Photo © Ander Aguirre



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Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography
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Photo © JMG - BAIRES Aviation Photography



So here's to:


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Photo © Javier F. Bobadilla - IBERIAN SPOTTERS
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Photo © Phil Jones



Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:18 am

Maybe this is a stupid question for which I apologiza in advance, but according to Avion Revue (international, September edition) Southern is in a very bed shape economically, so how are they going to afford to buy or lease planes?
saludos
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:30 am

EZEIZA:

I would ask the same question, and in fact, to be precise, why is that BOTH Southern Winds AND Aerovip are in such poor shape? How can nothing be going right for them? Why the stagnation?

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:35 am

ZXV:
Honestly I don't know. I think southern winds offers a great option, not only for national flights, but most of all for EZE-MAD. I travelled with them a few times on that route and the overall service was not bad at all, and the prices were thye best on the market (520 € return flight). However, on most of these flights the plane was half empty. Is it a matter of bad marketing or is it that the average passenger prefers to fly with 'established' airlines even though they have to pay more in many cases?

saludos
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
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RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:37 am

EZEIZA:

I don't know, there are quite a few (abstract) Southern Winds ads in La Nación almost daily, but ironically, the 767 service to Madrid is not one I've ever seen. The adverts are usually regional, like "Tucumán, Salta, Jujuy", or "Chapelco, Neuquén, Bariloche" or "Comodoro Rivadavia, Río Gallegos, El Calafate". I don't know the load factors on the domestic flights; I flew on SW from MDQ-AEP in late February, but the summer was already winding-down so I wasn't particularly surprised that the aircraft was only about half-full.

The trouble with MAD is that few travel agencies have even heard of Southern Winds, so you'll never get someone saying "well, I can get you US$800 with Iberia but US$500 with Southern Winds". No, you have to specifically ask them to type in the airline in the database, and often they can't find it. Keenly Travel in Argentina can book you Southern Winds to MAD sans problems.

Southern Winds only real publicity seems to come from word of mouth. The good thing is, they are as you say, "not bad at all". The bad thing is, who is going to believe that? Not many. My godfather thought I was pulling his leg when I told him about SW. Well, he just took them to Spain and back, and apologised profusely for not believing me. Oh well, when cynicism about Argentine products dies down a bit (if ever!), SW will hopefully stand a better chance, if they live to see that point in the pretty distant future...

LONG LIVE SOUTHERN WINDS!!!

Saludos,

ZXV

P.S. Didn't you just love the TWA life-jackets in the 767?! Speaking of which, my flight in late-May was almost full.

P.P.S. Does anyone know if Air Europa still fly MAD-LGW?

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
LVZXV
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:46 am

A small update:

  • Southern Winds appear to have dropped the weekly MIA service (codeshared w/ AA).

  • As of yet, Virgin cannot confirm any contract with Southern Winds.


  • Fingers crossed...

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    ArgInMIA
    Posts: 475
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    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:02 am

    They are not VIRGIN's aircraft.. they belong to Mr.Rasnavad.. there was a set back early last week.. but its been fixed.. so far so good.. I'll keep you guys posted
    Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
     
    OB1504
    Posts: 3019
    Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:37 am

    TF-ARA had an unusual 3-class 201-seat layout, with Business, Surf (Premium Economy) and Economy--the latter with 35-inch pitch.

    Would you happen to know the seat pitch on CC-CRH?

    Southern Winds appear to have dropped the weekly MIA service (codeshared w/ AA).

    Is there any chance of A4 returning to MIA with the 763, or not?

    And is there anyone who can explain the whole CAT II restriction on Argentina? I'm quite perplexed by this.

    Good day!

     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:20 am

    OB-1504:

    Would you happen to know the seat pitch on CC-CRH?

    Maybe an inch or so less. LA's 767s are 219-seaters, as far as I know.

    Is there any chance of A4 returning to MIA with the 763, or not?

    Not with an Argentine-registered aircraft, or at least until CAT I is reinstated. Remember TF-ARA and TF-ARB had no problems, for obvious reasons.

    And is there anyone who can explain the whole CAT II restriction on Argentina? I'm quite perplexed by this.

    So am I. It is one the most ridiculous, proposterous and fraudulent rulings passed on Argentine aviation, and an insult to Argentine mechanics from LADE to Aerolíneas, who have always maintained high safety standards, and have few accidents to show for this.
    Basically, during the nadir of the crisis, around July 2002, some FAA prats paid a visit to Argentina chose to put 2 and 2 together and conclude that the economic situation had led to an alarming decline in air safety in Argentina, such that it fell short of ICAO standards, when perhaps the opposite was true (the one serious incident in 2002 was courtesy of a Chilean saboteur in SCL).

    Here are some of the specific (known) consequences of a CAT II downgrade:

  • CAT II certification implies a lower safety level, generating severe restrictions on the current operations of all of the country's flag carriers with flight operations to the US.


  • Charming.

  • CAT II limits the country's air industry's growth potential to key markets. Expansion of flag carrier's services is severely restricted and puts the flag carriers at a significant competitive disadvantage vis-à-vis the flag carriers of CAT I countries.


  • How very civilised.

  • Each CAT II country's current airline service will be restricted to present levels. Route growth to US markets is suspended.


  • Smacks of Monroe.

  • Restricted ability to obtain commercial or code-share agreements with US carriers. Limits alliance development.


  • Woohoo.

  • Foreign commercial and tourism visitor decline due to limited airline capacity and perception of danger or inadequacy. Reduction in foreign investment related to CAT II designation. Travel and tourism industry stagnates.


  • Allowing for a prompt and solid recovery, of course.

  • Stagnation or negative growth of the country's air carriers. Operating cost escalation (increased surveillance on wet-leases).


  • To give you an idea, Argentina's fellow members of the CAT II "losers" club include:

    Bangladesh
    Belize
    Côte d'Ivoire
    Dominican Republic
    Ecuador
    Gambia
    Greece
    Guatemala
    Guyana
    Haiti
    Honduras
    Nicaragua
    Panama
    Paraguay
    P.D.R. Congo
    Surinam
    Swaziland
    Venezuela
    Uruguay
    Zimbabwe

    Note the conspicuous absence of Indonesia, Peru, the Philippines and South Korea from this list, to name but a few...

    It makes for frustrating reading and I'm sure Argentina's recovery has been slowed by these pointless restrictions, but there are strong signs that an upgrade to CAT I is finally imminent.

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. I will try to find the exact link announcing the downgrade.

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    ArgInMIA
    Posts: 475
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    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:29 am

    LVZXV whats the latest on going back to cat 1?
    Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
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    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am

    ARGinMIA:

    Last I heard, an FAA delegation were already in Argentina. If they've already left, then they should reach a conclusion by Christmas, though frankly I think the whole CAT II episode could have been avoided and was the product of poor judgement. Just my 2 centavos!

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Posts: 2299
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    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:42 am

    ZXV:

    when perhaps the opposite was true (the one serious incident in 2002 was courtesy of a Chilean saboteur in SCL).

    Just one question:

    ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿??????????


    What?

    Regards )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:55 am

    Arcano:

    18 February 2002. An AR 732 (LV-ZRE) was flying from SCL to EZE, when over the Andes, the fuselage suffered a major depressurisation, courtesy of a 6-inch crack above the floor level aft of the L1 door. The aircraft made a successful emergency landing at San Juan, and there were no casualties, but rather than being caused by metal fatigue per se, the aircraft was found to have been sabotaged during its overnight stay at SCL, don't ask me why.

    Not every Chilean is a saint!  Big grin

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Arcano
    Posts: 2299
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    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:33 am

    ZXV:

    I'm sorry, I find that very hard to believe. Who said that?

    SCL has an inicredible safety standard, and that includes the personnel. Aircrafts in Chile are not just injured withouth further iunvestigation.

    Besides, if that was true don't you think we would heard of a trial, demand, international friction or something?

    I just don't buy that, not in Chile. Not saints for sure, pero de ahi a saboteadores...

    Regards )(
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:43 am

    I hadn't noticed this update but it's dated November 16 so still pretty recent:

    http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/11/16/elpais/p-01901.htm

    EL EMPRESARIO MARTIN VARSAVSKY APORTARA US$ 6,5 MILLONES
    Southern Winds incorpora siete Jumbos


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    El empresario argentino Martín Varsavsky, radicado desde hace años en España, aportará 6,5 millones de dólares a la aerolínea Southern Winds para que la empresa alquile 7 jumbos modelo 747-267. Las nuevas aeronaves serán utilizadas para ampliar la oferta de vuelos internacionales de SW, explotando rutas que unan a la Argentina con Europa y los Estados Unidos.

    Varsavsky y el titular de SW, Juan Maggio, hablaron ayer con Clarín para explicar el acuerdo.

    "Yo no seré accionista de SW" aclaró Varsavsky, "sino que participaré en el negocio específico de la comercialización de tickets a través de Internet. Y para eso pondré toda mi experiencia en el rubro, adquirida a través de mi portal Viajar.com, a través del cual vendimos el año pasado pasajes por 110 millones de dólares".

    El aporte de capital de Varsavsky va dirigido, entonces, a contratar los aviones; entrenar a pilotos y personal; dar el soporte tecnológico para la venta on-line de tickets y publicidad.

    En la actualidad dos tercios de los tickets de vuelos internacionales de SW se venden a europeos, y el tercio restante a pasajeros argentinos.

    Maggio subrayó que la facturación de los vuelos internacionales ("60 millones de dólares por año y por avión") le darán capital de trabajo para que SW gane presencia en el mercado de cabotaje local. "Los turistas que traemos quieren tener buenas conexiones para ir a los destinos turísticos del interior, así que les vamos a vender un paquete completo". Para reforzar este punto, SW está negociando la incorporación de dos Boeing 737.

    Así, Maggio hace foco en uno de los puntos más problemáticos del mercado local. A su juicio, la posición dominante de Aerolíneas Argentinas.

    Hoy SW cuenta con fuertes subsidios del Gobierno. La empresa forma parte de un "acuerdo empresario" que une a la empresa con la aerolínea estatal LAFSA. Se estima que el aporte mensual del Estado es de 6 millones de pesos.

    El convenio de "cooperación" —extendido hasta marzo de 2005— consiste en aportes estatales $ 3,2 millones mensuales para pagar el combustible de los aviones y de casi $ 3 millones para los salarios de los empleados de LAFSA que trabajan en "comisión" en SW.

    SW cuenta como accionista, con el 30% del capital, a Eduardo Eurnekian, titular de la empresa Aeropuertos Argentina 2000. No en vano Maggio se encargó de subrayar "las fuertes inversiones en mejorar las estaciones de Ezeiza, Aeroparque y varias plazas del interior."

    Varsavksy, quien se presenta como "emprendedor y filántropo", cobró notoriedad cuando realizó, durante la presidencia de Fernando de la Rúa, un aporte de 11 millones de dólares para lanzar el sitio de Internet Educ.Ar.


    _________________________________________________________________

    The gist of this article is that in a deal struck between SW chairman Juan Maggio and Argentine business tycoon Martin Varsavsky, SW will be leasing a total of 7 B747-267Bs, at a cost of US$6.5 million. According to another source, the first 2 will arrive within the next couple of months, together with 2 B737s of unspecified series. Maggio estimates annual running costs to run up to US$60 million per aircraft (7 x 60M = US$420M!).

    The Jumbos will be used to serve Europe and the USA--the latter only if Argentina receives the much-awaited CAT I upgrade.

    The Government meanwhile agreed to extend its contract with state-owned carrier LAFSA (affiliated with SW) until March 2005, covering the company's fuel costs and salaries, amounting to over US$2 million per month.

    The deal is a step closer to completion, but is starting to sound unrealistic, in my opinion. IF all goes well, Argentina will become the first Latin American country where not one but TWO airlines operate 747s (at a time when the 747 has been made redundant in the rest of the continent), who together would bolster Argentina's 747 fleet to the region of 14-15 aircraft.

    Am I the only one who doesn't see this ambitious scenario unfolding?

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.S. Arcano, I can now answer your question re the 737 at SCL. It wasn't officially sabotage, rather an inexperienced and unqualified Chilean air-bridge operator at SCL who damaged the fuselage while trying to connect to the 737. Here's the link:

    http://www.jiaac.org/php/accidentes/pagina_accidente.php3?a=726

    Lucky for him, the AR pilots reacted in time...

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    EZEIZA
    Posts: 4421
    Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:49 am

    Hola ZXV!

    Yes, I agree that 7 747's seems a bit too ambitous, but i guess all we can do is wait and see. If it does happen though, I can't wait to see the 747 is SW livery!

    Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
     
    Chiguire
    Posts: 1848
    Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:58 am

    6,5 million $ are not a lot....especially when talking about such a big deal. I have seen smaller operations lose much more money in a few months.
    And they are facing strong competition. Where do they want to fly with so many big birds ?
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:11 am

    IF SW paints the 747 in their standard colours, they will be some of the smartest in the world. BUT, the overall white liveries applied to the last 2 737s and the 767 would look hideous, but as far as I know, it's temporary, and the 767, well overdue for a little rest, should be painted in full SW colours once the 747s start arriving, that is, if SW plan to keep it...

    Chiguire:

    I agree, 6.5M is nothing when we are dealing with Jumbos, but the a/c are all 20+ years old and will be acquired on lease. The more frightening figure is the US$60 million annual running costs per aircraft. There yes, SW need to rob a bank or two...

    Destinations? Reading between the lines, and based on previous SW announcements, expect FCO, JFK, MEX and MIA to start with, and, if the remaining 747s follow, maybe places like CDG, LAX, MXP, but don't take my word for it. Maggio's primary aim is to compete with AR, so first and foremost, more frequencies to MAD will be somewhat mandatory. From then on, we'll see...

    AR, at this very moment, are operating 4 B747-200s and 2 B747-400s, with 2 more -200s on loan to Air Plus and a 3rd -400 due next month.

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    EZEIZA
    Posts: 4421
    Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:18 am

    "Destinations? Reading between the lines, and based on previous SW announcements, expect FCO, JFK, MEX and MIA to start with, and, if the remaining 747s follow, maybe places like CDG, LAX, MXP, but don't take my word for it. Maggio's primary aim is to compete with AR, so first and foremost, more frequencies to MAD will be somewhat mandatory. From then on, we'll see..."
    I know this comes up often but is there any update on when Argentina will be CAT I again? FCO makes a lot of sense, but I agree that increasing frequencies to MAD will be the priority, not only to compete with AR or IB, but also because its a sure thing since demand is always huge. And you are right about the livery, if the use the white one it will suck, i forgot about that

    saludos
    ps: was a.net down yesterday or was my connection being funny? It's the first time I am able to get into a.net in over 15 hours


    [Edited 2004-11-20 19:28:35]
    Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
     
    Arcano
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:23 am

    ... more than ambicious, it sounds a little improvised for me. Have those guys any idea how many jumbos Argentina needs for flying abroad??? I know Argentine ego is a heavy, heavy load, but 7! and how many said AR, 17?

    This whole sudden Argertine orientation for the 747 sounds risky, Am I alone on this? And Aerolineas del Sur also bringing the 747 to Chile... not the best idea for me either!

    Regards )( Arcano

    PS: It was not sabotage at all! watch your mouth!
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    Marambio
    Posts: 1145
    Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:44 am

    Good afternoon gentlemen,

    Some minor corrections and opinions:

    First of all, AR is currently operating two 747-475s and three 747-287Bs. LV-OOZ is leased to A7, LV-MLP is on its way, already wearing A7 titles, and LV-MLO cannot be seriously listed as operating. LV-OPA is soon entering it's D-Check and will be out of service until March, leaving just LV-MLR and LV-OEP, the latter with its cicles limited.

    The third 747-475 is not expected to arrive before the Summer Season, thus leaving AR effectivley with only 3.5 747s, although Aerolíneas del Sur might start flying from SCL-MAD via EZE before, hence reducing AR's own flights on the EZE-MAD route. Furthermore, EZE-FCO is expected to change to 2x 744 + 2x A340 from the current 1x 744 + 3x A340.

    As to A4's plans: they won't be flying to FCO that soon. The 747-267Bs they wouldd get would be for daily flights to MAD. They do not intend to get all four 747s together, just two for those daily flights.

    Arcano:

    Re A4 and AR choosing to operate 747s: it has nothing to do with an ego, but rather with the fact that

  • there is a market: AR is filling almost two daily 747s between EZE and MAD with both passengers and cargo.

  • IB is doing the same with A340-600s and A340-300s

  • Argentina has the necessary infrastructure and human resources to operate these planes. The pilots for these 4 747s are mainly coming from AR, which has trained some of its pilots for the 744, while others where retired. They are also looking at increasing the age of retirement, so as to employ 60-year old ex-AR 747-pilots


  • As of the number of planes, keep in mind that this is a long-term possibility, subject to many factors, among them:

  • Cat I upgrading

  • the success of the whole 747-operation (only 2 to 4 747s are planned for the first stage)


  • AR never intended to get 17 747-400s. It was just a misunderstading. They plan to get up to four, which is what they need for their twice-daily flights to MAD and for any other ocasional duties.

    Finally, regarding the SCL incident: since the "accident" was SCL Ground Handling's fault, and it was not notified to the competent authority, all I can say is that there was BIG negligence that put in danger passenger's security.

    I pasted this part of the Chilean Junta de Investigación de Accidentes communiqué, which I thought was very interesting:

    RECOMENDACIONES:

    A la Autoridad Aeronáutica de la República de Chile:

    Extremar los controles y el adiestramiento del personal que tiene acceso a la zona de operaciones del aeropuerto y opera las pasarelas de embarque.


    Saludos,
    Marambio

    [Edited 2004-11-20 19:45:41]
    Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
     
    TBCITDG
    Posts: 851
    Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:26 am

    In addition to that, one has to include the current success of AR's operations to SYD. I am sure that during he summer months AR would have no problems in filling up the 744 to AKL and on to SYD. There may not be a need to increase frequencies, yet they could add seats on the routes by replacing the A340 with a 744.
     
    Arcano
    Posts: 2299
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:53 am

    Marambio

    I think I heard some of Marsans plans for AR to complete a fleet of 17 744 in the coming years. Maybe ZXVm the "fleet expert" of the forum can confirm.

    And as for SCL, yes, big negligence, but not sabotage nor "accident" using ""... I'm sure SCL personnel has more important things to care than to think twisted plans against Argentine carriers. So let's label stuff accorging to proper dimensions, ok?

    BTW, if SWinds is becoming stronger again, have them any plans to return to SCL? maybe they would like to join UAIR in SCL.MDZ route, and link again AEP with SCL.

    Regards
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    Derico
    Posts: 4209
    Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:04 am

    As with any airline these days, getting stronger means little to nothing. How many times have we seen airlines putting a face of expansion only to fall belly up 'out of nowhere'?

    But I do hope SW is being smart and prudent, and that these new objectives are part of that process.

    SCL-MDZ:A4? That would make this route very transited if UAir really becomes commited to it, but I don't think SW would do that right away at least. How about restarting the MDZ-COR line, since only AR does a prefunctory service of it. Or maybe even a MDZ-UAQ-COR run.
    My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:40 am

    Arcano:

    Ok, "sabotage" was the wrong word, but as Marambio highlighted, the authorities at SCL shouldn't have allowed the operator in question near the aircraft. I know these incidents happen in Europe and North America too, but in the case of "ZRE", the damage, on top of being caused, went unnoticed (and only the air-bridge operator or SCL ground crew could have spotted it) and could just have well led to an incident of a far more serious nature...

    Marambio:

    Thank you for your informative and constructive corrections. 2 questions:

  • What is the deal with Air Plus? Weren't they supposed to be operating just a single 747? Then that became 2. And now 3? Who needs the 747s more: AR or A7? Plus, isn't MLP due for transfer in April '05?

  • About OEP: How serious is that "crack"? Should it be flying at all? Is it not repairable? Don't know about you but I'd be a little weary about flying on that plane...


  • 4 B747-400s sounds reasonable, but on the other hand:

    1. Do AR really need the extra capacity provided by 45 B737-300/500s, when they also plan to retain the MD-80s?
    2. What fate do AR have in store for their B747-200s? Will they fetch-up with A7 and the subsidiaries? Are 4 B747-400s enough for supporting AR's long-haul network, especially if that will soon include PEK, PVG, DXB, ATH etc...?

    Sorry if I'm bombarding you with questions, but perhaps you know a little more about AR's plans (or rationale) than I do. Any answers would be most appreciated.

    Latest on AdS: Launching December 5, SCL-PMC-PUQ, with an ex-AC B737-200. Hay que ver...

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    Marambio
    Posts: 1145
    Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:44 am

    Good evening gentlemen,

    How about restarting the MDZ-COR line, since only AR does a prefunctory service of it. Or maybe even a MDZ-UAQ-COR run.

    I really believe that route should have been started long ago, same as COR-ROS. Mendoza, Córdoba and Rosario are Argentina's most important cities, after Buenos Aires of course, hence they should be linked one another. Especially since A4, at its beginnings, was proud of its Cordobés origin.

    As of now, AR's COR-MDZ has very poor loads, around 60 pax per day. That route should be great for an airline such as Aerovip, or perhaps an Aerolíneas Regional.

    What is the deal with Air Plus? Weren't they supposed to be operating just a single 747? Then that became 2. And now 3? Who needs the 747s more: AR or A7? Plus, isn't MLP due for transfer in April '05?

    It is almost confirmed that Aerolíneas del Sur will receive one of Air Plus' 747s. LV-MLP is owned by AR and its been transfered on leasing to A7 earlier than planned.

    About OEP: How serious is that "crack"? Should it be flying at all? Is it not repairable? Don't know about you but I'd be a little weary about flying on that plane...

    The aircraft can fly. The cycle restrictions was ordered by Boeing. This doesn't mean the plane is unsafe, but should the airframe reach a certain amount of cycles, AR will have to decide whether to mandarlo a desguace (scrap it) or to repair it, the latter being considerably expensive.

    1. Do AR really need the extra capacity provided by 45 B737-300/500s, when they also plan to retain the MD-80s?

    I believe that is a long-term plan. AR also considers growing in the forecoming years, thus this big expansion. We should also consider that the MD-81s might be retired, as they are starting to show their age. The complete, 45 aircraft 733/5 fleet should be ready by 2009, when the MD-81s will be about 27 years old.

    Last but not least, remember Marsans still wants to create subsidiaries in Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay. Some of those aircraft may go to those sister airlines, if they ever start.

    2. What fate do AR have in store for their B747-200s? Will they fetch-up with A7 and the subsidiaries? Are 4 B747-400s enough for supporting AR's long-haul network, especially if that will soon include PEK, PVG, DXB, ATH etc...?

    I am very skeptical about announcements such as ATH and DXB. And I even tomo con pinzas routes like PEK and PVG.

    The 744s are, and will be, mainly used in the EZE-MAD-EZE rotation. With four 747-400 they might start Beijing or Shanghai via MAD twice weekly. However, these aircraft won't be used in other routes but during the high season (e.g. they will send it to USH this summer). For the other routes you have the A342s and the A310, which might be 2 in a near future, and 5 in a few years, depending on how the Cat I thing goes on.

    Saludos,
    Marambio

    [Edited 2004-11-21 02:46:56]
    Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:16 am

    Marambio:

    A4, as you know, abandoned their "cordobes" origins in order to survive; I'm still surprised at how poor load factors are from the city. AR would do well to either open up a regional subsidiary (as they had) or acquire some 50-seaters, like ATR-42s or Fokker 50s, for inter-provincial flights. In my mind, standardising the domestic fleet with (predominantly) 737s is not a good idea, as while they do fill up in the summer months, the rest of the year they operate at a loss. Funnily enough, I recall AU's subsidiary "Inter Austral" suffering heavy losses on the COR-MDZ route in the '90s, which led to their CN-235s being returned. Or am I wrong?

    I never understood why LV-MLO was retired in 2002, aged just 23. Was she suffering structural problems of sorts or was it more a cost-cutting measure? Any word on her fate?

    I believe that is a long-term plan. AR also considers growing in the forecoming years, thus this big expansion. We should also consider that the MD-81s might be retired, as they are starting to show their age. The complete, 45 aircraft 733/5 fleet should be ready by 2009, when the MD-81s will be about 27 years old.

    The MD-81s are among the world's oldest, true, and they will be pushing 30 by the end of the decade, but that still leaves a good dozen MD-83s and MD-88s (supposing more of the former are delivered...) which could easily last until 2020. Marsans plan for AR-AU to operate 75 aircraft by the end of 2007, which probably means more aircraft of unspecified types could join. I take it the A340-600 deal will be/has been completely scrapped, or just "indefinitely postponed"?

    I share your scepticism about the Mediterranean destinations announced, but my question is why, for the love of God, do Marsans keep on announcing them? The fact they cannot fulfill their promises only works to discredit them further. I remember how Maggio of Southern Winds never publicly announced the acquistion of another aircraft (during the '90s) until it actually arrived, a philosophy that he has sadly drifted from more recently. Marsans would be wise to keep their mouths shut until the light is green for a new route to start, as since 2001, they have probably had a similar number of "cancellations" to launches.

    Saludos,

    ZXV




    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    LVZXV
    Posts: 1729
    Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:09 am

    Seems like these are the 2 moth-eaten 737s (LV-YXB, YZA) A4 plan to incorporate in the coming months (foreground):


    View Large View Medium

    Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography



    I knew this was going to happen! First, all the useful parts are cannibalised from these aircraft, and only then is the decision taken to return them to service...

    Marambio, can you prove me wrong on this one?

    Saludos,

    ZXV

    P.D. Re T-01 http://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/nota.asp?nota_id=656482



    [Edited 2004-11-23 01:28:52]
    How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
     
    pzurita1
    Posts: 1188
    Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:21 am

    RE: Confirmed 747-200 For Southern Winds!

    Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:02 am

    LVZXV,
    You wrote:
    "Destinations? Reading between the lines, and based on previous SW announcements, expect FCO, JFK, MEX and MIA to start with"

    I think you can delete MEX from your list as A4 lost its rights to fly the route. Recently, AR was given the rights to fly 4x (or 5x) weekly flights to MEX, the most that the bilateral agreement allows to Argentinian airlines.

    Those rights were AR until two years ago, when they were all given to A4 and never used them. Now they are back to AR.

    PZ
    Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT