BR715-A1-30
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United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:01 pm

I heard a story a couple years back about a United flight that had 0 flight attendants and the passengers were serving themselves coffee and nuts? Is this a true story, or was it just a rumor.
Puhdiddle
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:12 pm

I don't think it could take off without crew. That wouldn't be legal.

The closest I've heard is a BA stewardess who was working a flight ex India and the whole cabin crew went down with tummy troubles after some dodgy restaurant food. She and a couple of colleagues were spared as they were vegetarian and didn't eat the same meals. The flight deck crew, luckily, hadn't gone out with them that time, so were also spared. She said the pax were more than happy to step in a play cabin crew for the flight. They also had to get some able bodied pax to station the exits for landing. Afterwards she got three months off work, with full pay, while the whole crew were in quarantine. (They were food handlers.) A few of the crew suffered such serious long-term effects, that their flying careers were over.

This happened a long time ago, as the stewardess who told me was deadheading between Jo'burg and Harare in 1990.
 
N1120A
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:06 pm

That BA story is insane. There are Express flights in the US all the time that go out without an F/A, the ones on 19 PAX planes like Be 1900s.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AC861
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Not sure how American regs work, but I know here in Canada any A/C with 20 or more pax has to have an FA onboard, then its one FA for every 40 pax.
 
UALFAson
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:17 pm

Agreed--there is no way a flight would have gone out with no F/As. That's so illegal it makes my head spin. UA would have been fined BUCCO dollars and the media would have had a field day.

Only aircraft with fewer than 20 seats are not required to have F/As. In America, I think the rule is then 1 for every 50 pax.

And besides, there's no way non-crew members would EVER have figured out how to work the galley coffee maker!
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
BCAL
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:33 pm

Trolley Dolley

That BA rumoured story is strange. Surely there is a rule in aviation safety that dictates the minimum number of cabin crew in planes carrying +20 passengers. OK, the passengers could help out with serving of coffee, drinks and perhaps meals (that would be fun!) and opening doors on landing but what if a serious incident arose and/or emergency landing was necessary? With insufficient qualified cabin crew active, the airline would be seriously breaching safety rules. If half the cabin crew were unable to fulfill their duties, the captain should land the plane at the nearest airport and not continue the flight until a replacement crew is sought (might be difficult in flight is in mid-Atlantic but that might necessitate a diversion to somewhere like Gander/Iceland/Azores?).

Does anyone know the minimum cabin crew ratio to passengers for 737s or A318s and above? Is it 1 cabin crew for every 50 pax?



[Edited 2004-10-29 07:34:17]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Brido
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:36 pm

No way in hell that a UA flight went out with no flight attendants.

UAX maybe. But if it had "coffee and nuts" it was a Part 121-flight and FAs are **required**. Absolutely impossible that they pulled away from the gate without flight attendants.

A clarification: In the USA, FAs are required 1:50 SEATS. In Canada it is 1:40 PASSENGERS.

I have worked on both US- and Canadian-registered airplanes. Under FAA and Transport Canda regs. The differences were striking and interesting. The A320 with 180 seats **required** 4 FAs in the USA, even if there was **one** pax onboard. But in Canada, if there were less than 120 **passengers on the aircraft**, we could go with 3 FAs.
 
BCAL
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:48 pm

A clarification: In the USA, FAs are required 1:50 SEATS. In Canada it is 1:40 PASSENGERS.

Anybody know about UK regulations and is there an international minimum?

I did hear a rumour that an African airline landed at Stansted and the UK authorities prohibited the flight to return as a routine inspection found they were operating with below minimum cabin crew. Some passengers had to disembark before the flight could return to Africa.

MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
cheetajet
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:02 pm

Actually, An American Airlines 727 took-off without FA's and had to return to the airport. I guess the original cabin crew went illegal and walked, but the passengers we're still on the aircraft!! HUGE no-no!! Well, no one communicated that the new cabin crew hadn't boarded yet so the agent shut the door. Because the door shut, the flight crew thought the flight attendants were on board and pushed back!! This was way before 9-11 and CRM obviously. The plane took-off and about 40 minutes into the flight, there was a knock at the flight deck door. It was a passenger asking if they we're going to be served on this flight. Needless to say the plane had to turn around and go back to pick up the flight attendants! I heard this story, first hand by the second Officer on that very flight who was pass riding on my airline. We laughed for awhile over that one......
Melissa
I push a beverage cart, so don't go break'n my heart!!
 
BCAL
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:06 pm

Cheetajet

That made me laugh.  Laugh out loud

On a serious side was the captain disciplined? I always though no passenger airplane could depart until the flight deck crew had been informed by the cabin crew that the cabin was ready for take off?

MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
airgeek12
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:13 pm

I'm pretty sure it's against FAA rules to not have a F/A. I mean F/As are the ones that like secure the cabin, crew doors, and a whole lot of other stuff. The plane like wouldn't live without them! :p
 
cheetajet
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:22 pm

UM....You Might think we're super important and we are, but an airliner can operate without us. I've taken off having forgotten to arm a door and then armed it during climb! On DC-9's and older aircraft, the flight deck crew can't determine if doors are armed or not, like on the airbus or high tech aircraft.
I've had carts come loose in the galley during take-off because catering didn't secure them and I forgot to check!! Long days and many legs and we forget things just like earthling...also, Just because the FAA makes rules doesn't mean we always follow them to a tee....again, Long days short legs...er...you Get the picture....
Melissa
I push a beverage cart, so don't go break'n my heart!!
 
ntspelich
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:30 pm

Not only would UA never let that happy, but no airline in the US would, or could, allow it to happen. The FAA regulates how many cabin crew must be on board in relation to the # of seats. Not occupied seats, but total seats. So, even if you have a 777 with only 30 pax on it, you still need the # of cabin crew that you would if each seat were filled.
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
cheetajet
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:57 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:39 pm

This situation happened many years ago. Everyone in here totally agrees that something like that happening in today's post 9-11 world is impossible and that is true. We communicate with the flight deck crew throughout boarding , after door closes, and such. It was not always like that. Many times when the flight deck door closed, so did communication!!!
I push a beverage cart, so don't go break'n my heart!!
 
Brido
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:42 pm

Cheetajet:

Not to start a "thing" or be nit-picky...

Arming doors and securing galley carts is your job. Carts coming loose on takeoff because you "forgot to check" is 100% **not-okay.**

What were you doing instead of arming the doors and securing the galley equipment?

Please stop giving professional Flight Attendants a bad name. I've been doing this job almost 20 years and don't need your help to look goofy.

Thanks.
 
cheetajet
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:58 pm

Okay, so you never made a mistake? You never had a cart come loose? The unarmed door happened ONCE and it was my fault and I take full responsibility for that. I've seen other FA's make the same mistake. What about "Blowing" a slide? That happens all the time!! I've never done that!! We are human, humans make mistakes and it's okay to communicate that fact to others. I'm a very professional Flight Attendant who follows full uniform guidelines and has perfect dependability! But I have made mistakes and learned from them. If communicating that fact makes us look bad, well, sorry. So relax!! Chill!! Calm down, take a deep breath. Let's not be a Nazi Stewardess.....
I push a beverage cart, so don't go break'n my heart!!
 
L104me
Posts: 102
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:11 pm


Maybe a silly question...but it came up in my mind from reading the post.

I knew US Carriers had the 1 to 50 passanger ratio ( I believe it's actually seats...doesnt matter if they are full or not). Didn't know that Canada was 1 to 40.

But here's my question... If a US Carrier is operating to Canada, do they have to staff at the 1 to 40 ratio, or comply only with the US standards?

Just Curious...

Jeff
 
EnviroTO
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:13 pm

The A320 with 180 seats **required** 4 FAs in the USA, even if there was **one** pax onboard.

That would be an interesting flight. In an emergency that is one F/A per passenger limb... they could carry me to safety easily while I continue watching my movie on the personal video recorder. With nothing else to do I would expect some serious customer service... maybe they could feed me grapes and fan me... assuming they are all my type.  Smile Haha, just kidding of course.  Smile Time to wake up.
 
cheetajet
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:14 pm

Hi Jeff. We have to follow US standard because we are a US carrier. Just like the US drinking age is 21, you have to be 21 to consume alcoholic beverages on a US carrier, reguardless of destination. Doesn't that suck?!....oh well...
Melissa
I push a beverage cart, so don't go break'n my heart!!
 
Brido
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:28 pm

Melissa:

Uniform guidelines? Dependability? Oh boy...

NO I have never had a cart come loose. NO. I have never *not* armed a door. Are you working on a solo-FA or multiple-FA airplane?

I have done both...

Cross check your doors. Secure your galley carts and equipment. It ain't that hard for gosh sake!

Like I said, what were you doing INSTEAD?? I have been around. I take the job seriously...
 
UAXDXer
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:37 pm

If a US Carrier is operating to Canada, do they have to staff at the 1 to 40 ratio, or comply only with the US standards?

US Carriers follow the US FAR Part 121 to and from Canada 1 FA per 50 seats.

You're correct about 1 FA per 50 seats no matter how many pax are on board.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
DeltaMD-88
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:57 pm

Brido just curious your profile says you are between 26-35 so how have you been a F/A for 20 years??
Buck Fush Buck Fush Buck Fush Buck Fush Buck Fush Buck Fush
 
zvezda
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:01 pm

I was on a delivery flight (Finkenverder-KEF-IND) of one of UA's new A319s. Onboard were two UA test pilots, a UA instructor pilot (as a guest), the UA executive who signed for the plane, a UA QA engineer, and myself. We were operating pursuant to FAR Part 91, so no FAs were required. The view from the cockpit of southern Greenland and all the icebergs off the coast was spectacular! The flight was well catered by LH and I fetched food and drink from the galley for the pilots.
 
Brido
Posts: 154
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:02 am

Deltamd-88:

I said almost 20 years. To be exact have been flying 17 years.

I started very young, true. And soon I'll need to change my profile (or not, we'll see.)

Fact of the matter is I've been doing this job damn near half my life.
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:52 am

Attention A.net members, from now on instead of using the phrase "no one is perfect" please use the phrase "one person is perfect". Thank you.  Yeah sure
Can you hear me now?
 
AA767400
Posts: 1889
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:57 am

Brido, It seems you need to relax, and just got over your stern look on things. So you think you are super stew, and are better than everyone else because you did not make the same mistake. You say it is not hard to do....OK, It's not. But you know what is not hard to do either? Is not judge others.  Smile
"The low fares airline."
 
ewr767
Posts: 85
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:30 am

Are u guys for real. As if the pilots would take off with flight attendants. Give me a break. Ever heard of Fars. Post or Pre 911. This did or would not and has not happend with pax on board anything bigger than a F100.
 
aeronuts
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:48 am

Should happen or could happen?

It's a pretty funny story. I wouldn't even know which button to press for the coffee!
 
MTChemNerd757
Posts: 224
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:21 am

To the two of you bickering: None of us want to read it. If you want to bitch each other out, PLEASE just send an email. The forum is not the place for it. Seriously....
Fight Terrorism - Ride a Bike!
 
DAV67
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:43 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:22 am

UK CAA REQUIRES 1 CABIN CREW MEMBER FOR EVERY 50 SEATS WHETHER OCCUPIED OR NOT.
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:30 am

For all those that say the BA story is insane, I was surprised myself when the stewardess told me. As mentioned it was a long time ago, in 1990, and happened at at time when things weren't as litiguous as today. While there are rules about how many crew etc, I didn't make it clear that the crew took ill in-flight. The 747 took off with a full compliment of crew. There's no way BA would have operated the flight short staffed.

 
SegmentKing
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:46 am

I remember when I used to do the FLL-LAS trot on United... would do some really funky routings and I got to know a lot of United flight attendants.

I was in F of a 757 on an LAS-LAX leg in my beloved seat 4C. The purser has been with United for about 18 years, almost the same as Brido. She has a home south of Henderson with 2 kids and her husband (3rd kid).

On departure from LAS, our pilots were showing off and we had a nice angle of attack...

then ::::: crash :::::

one of the carts near Door 1R broke loose and we had items rolling down the aisle all the way into Y. cups... bowls... plates.... everything! I remember reaching down and grabbing a few cups myself!

She took it with a smile and make some jokes about it, and offered a free bottle of bubbly to anyone who found the most pieces that came out! Before landing she even mentioned that everything has been triple checked and that the galley monsters have been secured.

Brido, was Julie being unprofessional?
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
flyboy1980
Posts: 249
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RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:28 pm

When I was a f/a, I had a cart come loose in the rear galley of our BAe 146 on take off.

I had checked they were all secure, but then I had to check something inside the cart for the senior f/a and then I forgot to re-secure it as this was quite late in the taxi.

It was on the last flight of my 4 or 5 sector day at around 9 or 10pm so I was a little tired...

Yes, I think we all make mistakes. That was the first and only time it happened ever.
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:04 pm

Erm.... hello? Cabin crew are not just there for tea and nuts!!! Legally FAA and CAA give airline a minimum crewing levels per aircraft. Ie.: 777 by CAA, minimum crew complement is 8 (1 per door)...

So a UA flight going without crew is simply impossible and would be illegal. UA would lose its licences over something like this!

Al.
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:42 pm

So, a little off topic...

Do Air Canada CRJs have 2 FA's??

CRJ = 50 pax
 
Brido
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:32 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:47 am

NWA 747-400: Transport Canada gave an exemption for the CRJ to operate with one FA, based on what I'm not exactly sure.

As for the other criticisms, of course no one is perfect. I never said I was perfect, or never make mistakes.

And it is true, I am a **terrible** stickler. I like the doors to be armed as required, so that the passengers and crew can evacuate a burning aircraft if necessary.

And call me crazy but I do like all galley carts and equimpent to be secured for takeoff and landing, as required. People can be seriously hurt if they are not. And after all that is my job.

Say what you will about me. This job is nothing like working in an office or in retail. When we make mistakes, people can be hurt or killed. I appreciate and respect the responsibility that is placed in me and I try my hardest not to betray that trust.

Have a pleasant evening.
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:28 am

RE: United Airlines Flight Attendant-less

Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:06 am

Brido…. We got your point the first time. I don’t doubt you take your job more than seriously; in fact it’s great that you do!!
But, I am sure Melissa is as qualified and as competent as you are all she is saying is some people make mistakes. Maybe you haven’t done them, and that’s great. But she has ONCE, and she doesn’t need you of all people to tell her what to do. Im sure that’s been done.
Im not judging im sure you are both brilliant, im just saying that when things go wrong the best thing that happens is that the person recognizes it.
eP007

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