flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:12 am

Last night,

TS had its last departure to CDG out of Montreal-Mirabel.

Last night Transat 761 arrived from Puerto Plata at 12:15a, and effective that flight, Montreal-Trudeau (a.k.a Dorval) is Montreal's only commercial airport.

R.I.P Mirabel 1976-Oct31 2004!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:13 am

*warning, I don't want to offend anyone, so please don't take my comments to heart*.

This past Saturday was my first time ever travelling to Montreal. (For the last AC 74E flight).

I have to say - if we had not left the air-side section of the airport to roam around the ground-side area, we would have been totally appalled at Trudeau International.

Where we landed (we all (A.netters) called it the 'hole') was absolutely disgusting and old and decrepit.

Now, taking into account that they are working on improving the airport, and the groundside (where the restaurants and lounges are) is spectacular, if I was a connecting passenger and not going groundside, I would have been disgusted by the airport.

Again, it kind of highlites the improvements at T1 Toronto. yes, it's bland, it's sterile, but it's grandeur and cleanliness is quite welcoming under the circumstances.

Any opinions? (Any other a.netters that were there at YUL On Saturday care to comment?)

1011yyz.
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:36 am

I'm happy to see all the flights back at YUL. Once the new Customs Hall is open by mid-November it should run smoother, until then it will be difficult and Im sure there will be complaints. Nevertheless it's been 30 years since all commercial traffic has been at one airport so a time to celebrate! Next thing.. cargo.. bring it over!
 
formerhongky
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 2:47 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:56 am

This past Saturday was my first time ever travelling to Montreal. (For the last AC 74E flight).

I have to say - if we had not left the air-side section of the airport to roam around the ground-side area, we would have been totally appalled at Trudeau International.

Where we landed (we all (A.netters) called it the 'hole') was absolutely disgusting and old and decrepit.


Which part of the airport were you in? Domestic? I travel frequently to YUL from the US, and I think the transborder finger is pretty nice (granted, a VERY long walk to immigration). And I had an incredible meal in the (ground-side) restaurant close to the check-in counters.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:09 am

Mirabel will be back in 30-35 years...Just wait and see!

There is no way that YUL can handle Montreal's traffic for the next 30-35 years. ADM's projections are inaccurate. In order for their numbers to be accurate, they would have to build a whole new terminal in between rwy's 24R and 24L, which is already all used up by Air Canada's, Bombardier's and now Air Transat's hangars and facilities. Once their 3rd phase of expansion finishes, they will soon realize that they have once again ran out of terminal space.

Dont get me wrong, the 3 runway system they have is enough for the next 35 years, no question about that! Just have a look at LHR or even LGW, respectively the busiest international airport in the world (2 runways, the 3rd one used as a taxiway) and the busiest single runway airport in the world (the 2nd one used as a taxiway), both of which utilize fewer runways than YUL, but have passenger figures 7-8 times that of YUL.

Why? Because LHR has 4 terminals, soon to be 5, and as for LGW, they have 3 to 4 times more parking space than YUL, even with the new expansions. YUL lacks terminal space, and if ADM thinks the current expansion will be sufficient for the next 30 years, boy do they have a surprise coming their way!

Now some of you will say that I cannot compare YUL to LHR or LGW, and you are right, but I just wanted to prove a point. I know that YUL will never reach 60-70 million passengers a year in the next 30 years, and it doesnt need to. But the problem is it wont even be able to reach half that.

You'd be surprized by the number of JAZZ pilots who have contacted me inbound to YUL and told me that they would like to reduce their speed because their gate is just not ready at YUL! If wer were at YYZ, then fine, I would understand. But with the passenger figures at YUL, that's just absurd. That situation will become more and more of a reality, if ADM doens't take action.


Anyways, fell free to blast me for all these coments, but this is just my point of view. I hope for Montreal's aviation's sake that I am wrong, but I highly doubt it!

TheNoFlyZone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:10 am

1011yyz.

visit www.admtl.com and go to trudeau expansion to see the chnges that are in store.

The domestic side of YUL is pretty awful, but the transborder/international are beautiful, and the new amazing customs hall opens nov.18th.

Gates 1-10 (where you landed) is not that bad. Its pretty simple and very user-friendly and efficient.

It looks exactly like the old T2 in YYZ.. and expansion announcement is set for some time in the near future to fix this part up.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:13 am

Noflyzone,

I understand your concerns, Ive had the same. But we need to recognize the further elements of expansion for YUL. If your familiar with YUL, currently where the US customs pre-clearance is, that will soon be vacated, where new checkin counters can be placed.

Also, pre-clearance and the US terminal will fill the hole between TB new and the road ramp.

In terms of gates, ADM can go up to 70 bridges + 25 commuter spots.

We will be fine.. remember that YMX is not even 30 years old, so how can we project another 30-35 years down the road, aviation wont be the same.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:29 am

FLYYUL,

I hope you're right buddy! I just dont want this city's air traffic to move from one airport to the other for the next 30 years, just like it has since the 90's. Like Caribb was saying, it's time to settle down at one airport and make it all happen. I just hope they chose the right one!

TheNoFlyZone

[Edited 2004-11-01 19:30:33]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:31 am

FLYYUL,

I agree. The new entrance area is quite stunning and beautiful. The domestic wing was quite a dump, quite dirty and old.

I have not seen the US/Int'l side, and I'm sure it's quite nice.

I will take the opportunity some time to try to fly out of YUL to the US so I can see for myself the changes, etc.

Thanks!
1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:51 am

When I was in Montreal back in May, I noticed the difference between the improved and yet to be improved sections of the airport.

The entrance area and check in areas are great, as is the transborder jetty. The aeroquay, however, is a dump, and I can't wait until ADM finishes replacing it!

When the project is completed, however, I think YUL will be a great airport.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:52 am

Noflyzone,

I agree... I got a glimpse of the new customs hall, it really is a stunning piece of architecture.. it really will help the change the perception that is Dorval.

What worries me is the lack of gate space on the international side. Only 10 gates, a simple gate chart on a peak day will show 100% utilization.. i hope they can do better.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:59 am

"http://www.admtl.com/admmaintext.jsp?idbin=21G000"

This is the adress to expansion videos..

Please take a look and let us know what you think.
 
BFS
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:33 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:08 pm

I just flew back to Quebec via YUL and it is a total dump. The arrivals area is a disgrace, and although the new terminal and gates are nice, very nice perhaps, I was devastared to be sent down to Gates 46 for Air Canada Jazz. There was just concrete floors and no ceiling to speak of - granted it was under renovation, but it just was not good enough.
 
BOEING747-700
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:21 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:12 pm

The New YUL looks to be quite nice from that video Mark, I must say it going to look like crap before it starts looks great. Remember how bad YYZ looked, YIKES.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:35 pm

One of the main reasons YMX failed was also due to distance.

Montreal's core markets are Toronto, Boston, New York, Washington, Paris, London.... most of these markets are less than a 1 hour plane ride away.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YMX, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

When this happens, the bus and train become more competitive.

Most people can drive Montreal-Toronto door to door in 5 hours flat.

 
quebecair727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:16 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:40 pm

One of the main reasons YMX failed was also due to distance.

Montreal's core markets are Toronto, Boston, New York, Washington, Paris, London.... most of these markets are less than a 1 hour plane ride away.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YMX, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

When this happens, the bus and train become more competitive.

Most people can drive Montreal-Toronto door to door in 5 hours flat.


The main reason why YMX failed is because they did not close YUL like they were supposed to do it down the road and transfer EVERY flights to YMX. The distance is one small element that played a part in the failure of YMX. I agree there was a lack on interest by all the provincial governments over the years.

As for your math, I totally agree with you with a small difference though.

So lets do the math.. 45 minute ride to YUL, 1.5 hour checkin process, 1 hour flight+ subsequent delays, 1 hour exiting process, 1 hour to more to get to where you need to go.

In the rush hour, I challenge you to make it to YUL from downtown in less than 45 minutes.
 
jgardiner
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:41 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:22 am

The main reason that YMX died is that the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned. When it was built there was to have been a major highway improvement as well as train service. This did not happen, so you had a brand new airport in the middle of nowhere and no way to get to it. It's no wonder that the airlines refused to use it.

 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:00 am

The main reason that YMX died is that the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned.

The reason the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned is simply because YUL was not closed as originally planned.

YUL was not closed as originally planned because AC didn't want to. In AC's views, Montreal was simply an O/D market and for such, YUL is fine.

Of course, ADM didn't have to buy this AC crap, but they did nonetheless because they have no vision about what an airport should be.

Had ADM invested at YMX what it invested at YUL, we'd have a world-class airport with an almost infinite potential to grow. Which is clearly not the case at YUL. And the argument "Heathrow with 2 runways gets 100 million pax a year, therefore YUL's runways are not a problem" is fallacious.

Granted, YMX was a mistake at the offset; this airport should have been built where the Quebec government wanted to back in the 60s, that is near Drummondville. But you don't fix a mistake by committing another.

ADM had a choice between a brand new Mercedes and an old Chevy. It chose to invest in maintaining the old Chevy, which days are counted anyway.

Go figure...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:33 am

"but they did nonetheless because they have no vision about what an airport should be."

-Dear Sir.

Firstly go visit the new installations at YUL once they are complete in its entirety.. then we'll talk. Have you seen the new TB concourse, the new customs hall, the international customs hall, the new arrivals area, the new checkin section?

Secondly, AC saw Montreal as an OD market because Montrealers and Quebeckers decided for it to be this way. In the last three decades, we have elected politicians that have hurt us more than words can describe. You dont think the sovreignty crap hurt us?

What did you expect? For some magical airline to pop-up from Quebec and make Montreal a international hub? Are you kidding me, because of stupid politics and insecurity and polarization of the Quebec society, today we are stuck with a secondary market. And precisely because of this, Toronto is NOW what Montreal SHOULD have been..

So dont go blaming the ADM.. it makes no economical sense to invest in YMX and this is why

1.) poor to medium development potential for Montreal. Face it, Toronto is goign to blow us out of the water with the way things have been, the way thigns are, the way things are going to be.

2.) no airline is willing to invest in Montreal. Air Canada's hub is in Toronto, Montreal is secondary yet vibrant. AIr Transat's main ops are in Toronto, All of SG's flights are in Toronto, Canjet has dropped all non-YHZ markets out of YUL, WestJet has dropped all non-transcon flying out of YUL except for YULYYZ................ so how are things going to change from YUL to YMX?

3.) It would cost in excess of 3 billion dollars provincially, federally, municipally to make Mirabel an airport that can handle YUL's particularities

a.) face it in YMX right now, the terminal is nice, but terribly inefficient.. it can only handle international flights and has 4 gates

b.) Mirabel has no direct highway

c.) Mirabel has 2 runways, it would required a 3rd

d.) Mirabel would require a new terminal

e.) Mirabel would require hotels and other ground support infrastructure...

f.) Mirabel would require new hotels and other visitor support infrastructue as well.

4.) Political instability in Quebec. Look im not a federalist nor am I a separatist. But if you ran the risk of having your investment devalued (weve experienced this before) because of the potential of sovreignty, maybe you would reconsider a simple RISK. Like I say, why buy a house for 300,000 when it runs the immediate risk of being devalued to 125,000 in a sovreign Quebec.?... same goes for the airport situation.

This would cost initially billions. Tell me QB001, are you sick and tired of paying taxes?

Montrealers have forgotten what it is to dream and think big. Montrealers today are so complacent, so scared of anything that is not Quebec and not-francophone, its almost disgusting. We are more than happy to be a secondary feeder to Toronto, a regional centre, because this way we can achieve being a "distinct society"..

So this is your oppurtunity cost QB001. Look at Toronto, look at us..... I love Montreal to bits, but sometimes it makes me sick. But I will always stand up for it, and what is BEST for it as well.

*end of rant*

 
Noise
Posts: 2012
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:00 am

Thank you Mark!!! Great post!
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:06 am

FLYYUL,

I appreciate your passion for YUL, but you're wrong, terribly wrong. And the way you blend political judgement, some facts and some opinions in your rant doesn't make a very good post.

I'd rather no respond because, frankly, it is so weak.

You can certainly do better than that - that being said with no sarcasm.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:26 pm

QB001,

Im sure its quite weak, you cant even respond.

Your one of those pro-Mirabel people so out of touch with market fundamentals.

So where am I wrong QB001?



 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:33 pm

FLYYUL,

For g-d sake, read your reply #18. Do you not see that you mixed-up everything, from the beauty of the new installations to the separatists, the 2 runways of YMX and the Montreal area real-estate market ? I'm surprise that you forgot to chip the "tongue-troopers" in... And you call that a rational argument ? Peu-leeze.

Make a good case for YUL, with facts and arguments, and I'll debate.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:39 pm

It is a rational argument.,

Why has traffic stayed flat for the last 30 years? Why have so many airlines left montreal? Why have many head-offices moved away from Montreal?

Why is Montreal the 26th poorest city in terms of GDP in North America.

QB001 friggin wake up and smell the coffee, and dont gimme lame excuses.

 
C-GRYK
Posts: 728
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 4:55 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:56 pm

Whoa Mark I'm starting to get frightened!!! You almost sound like Neil there!  Laugh out loud

Jer
Think before you type!
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:22 pm

QB001, I'm sorry, but FLYYUL has put forth an argument, you have not. Perhaps I can clarify what he says.

YMX was unable to obtain new investment to make it a true international hub. Qualifyers for an international hub:

- capable of combining domestic/int'l ops seamlessly
-capable of simultaneous approaches/departures
-quality adjacent hotels
-ease of transportation to the urban center

Reasons for failure to garner new investments:

-unstable politcal climate in Quebec over the past 30 years
-distance from urban center
-the 1960s concern that transport category aircraft would get nosier and nosier, necessitating excessive distance from population centers, has turned out to be utterly untrue
-the emergence of Toronto as Canada's economic & cultural center and subsquent fall of Montreal as the former possesor of these characteristics

I'd add that hosting the Olympics severely hurt Quebec's ability to invest further in YMX. To this day, Quebeckers and Montrealers continue to pay for 1976 era renovations/refurbishments/contructions. Olympic stadium, home of the former Expos, is still being paid for.

"The reason the provincial infrastructure was not improved as was originally planned is simply because YUL was not closed as originally planned.... ADM didn't have to buy this AC crap, but they did nonetheless because they have no vision about what an airport should be."

Don't blame AC. Plans have to change based on the fact that life doesn't always go as planned.

Fundamentally, it seems the ADM had two decisions: invest heavily in YMX (and close YUL) to make it work for the 21st century OR invest considerably less in YUL (which will work quite well when completed) and close YMX. In a climate where the city has become less prominent, investment hard to come by and political reality has become unstable, the one that would require the smaller investment would win. And it has.
buhh bye
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:19 pm

Lymanm,

You start your reply (#25) with interesting arguments, but then, similarly to FLYYUL, you start mixing airport considerations with politics, aircraft noise, the Olympics and the Expos... Come on.

No wonder you believe FLYYUL made a good argument, you argue just like him, by throwing everything, hoping something will hit the target.

Since you and FLYYUL seem incapable of making a reasonable argument, let me ask you a few questions that will make you stick to the point, okay ? The keywords here are "stick to the point", that is forget about the Expos or the separatists and other such irrelevant points.

What is the purpose of an airport ?
What makes a good airport, given its purpose ?
How do you attract traffic to an airport, given its purpose ?
What is specific to North-American airports ?
How do you expand an airport ?

Let start with those and then we'll see.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
yvrtoyyz
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:10 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:19 am

Although I don't really want to wade into this arguement too much, and after reading the debate into location, investment, etc., I want to draw your attention to some particular airports - DEN & YEG - which are located 45 mins - 1hr out of their respective cities and has benefited greatly from this (although there is talk surrounding downtown Edmonton). While the success of DEN lies in the fact that transportation to the airport is good and DEN only has one airport in the city, it remains a beacon that locating airports outside of the city is not a means leading to failure.

In the case of YMX, the short-sightedness of the Que. Gov't in failing to establish the necessary infrastructure - rail, road, etc - to feasibly connect and utilize YMX has led (to a CERTAIN degree) its downfall; and I can see this same short-sightedness arising again with YUL (albeit VIA terminal is at the entrance to Dorval). However, as it has been said before, one must consider an extra 45 mins - 1hr when going to YUL during the day in order to be assured of arriving on-time. One event in particular stands out where I gave 1hr extra to check-in (YUL-YYZ) and encountered an accident just 750m from the off-ramp to Dorval. By the time I arrived, I was advised to proceed immediately to the gate for boarding. Had I left YSC 10 minutes later, I wouldn't have made the flight.

As a result of the hassles of YUL, I often look for flights originating in YYZ (more frequency and easier to access) and drive to YYZ to take the flight instead of dealing with the hassles of YUL, especially domestic baggage claim.
Nonetheless, I am looking forward to seeing/experiencing the new T/B area and customs area of YUL in Dec.

And, without wading into the argument, this is my perspective.

-YVRtoYYZ
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:41 am

YES qb001.

Im talking about market fundamentals, which dictate the airport of choice. If the demand was so great, Mirabel would be necessary


What makes a good airport, given its purpose ?

-Mirabel is not a good airport. Its a 1 terminal that is highly inefficient for the 70% of Montreal's traffci which is primariyl domestic and transborder

"How do you attract traffic to an airport, given its purpose ?":

-TRAFFIC is assured by (get this) MARKET FUNDAMENTALS. If there is demand to make money in Montreal, carriers would invade. its not about NICE terminals. Like at YYT, they have one of the nicest terminals in the country.

"What is specific to North-American airports ?"

-Canadian airports my friend. TB pre-clearance, Canadian Customs, no In-transit connections allowed.. segregation of traffic amongst 3 categories, domestic/transborder/international.

"How do you expand an airport ?"

-What do you know about expanding an airport. You have NOT been to TB new at YUL, the New Customs hall.

Once again QB001, all your doing is pointing how my argument is weak. Meanwhile you dont take the time to rebutt my points, because according to you, they are "weak".

Well let me tell you what, you seem to think that Mirabel is the perfect solution for Montreal.. so if we moved to Mirabel tommorow, would all of a sudden new carriers and more planes would start to fly to YUL?

Take your head out of the sand.


 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:08 am

FLYYUL,

I think you're so infuriated that I criticize YUL that you don't see very clearly anymore. I asked you what is a good airport, and you answer by saying that YMX is not a good airport. You remind me of my wife when I ask her what she wants to eat tonight and she'll say "I don't want to eat (whatever)". I tell her "I didn't ask you what you don't want to eat, I asked you what you want to eat".

Sorry FLYYUL, but you'll have to work your arguments if you want to convince me. So far, you've failed.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:40 am

My arguments favor the majority and the conscensus, that Montreal Dorval is the future for Montreal, and that Montreal does not have the capabilities of transformign YMX.

Sadly, you disagree. Fair enough.. but the reason for which Montreal has failed as an aviation gateway are very well documented, the question is do you want to accept it?

 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:14 am

OK, I want to step in for a second and address this whole idea of "what is a good airport?"

A good airport is one that can adequately serve the city that it is designed to serve and the surrounding communities. Facilities should be comfortable, efficient, and well designed to meet the needs of the travellers.

What Mark and LymanM are saying, Qb001, is that given the fact that Montreal is not the type of market that it was projected to be, and so an airport the size of Dorval is sufficient. The factors leading to it not being a huge market are unfortunately influenced by the political situation in Quebec. That's what makes it relevant.

So, I think that's where the argument to upgrade Dorval rather than build the facilities necessary to move all traffic to Mirabel finally won out.
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:57 am

A good airport is one that can adequately serve the city that it is designed to serve and the surrounding communities.

Fair enough. But that is the definition of an O/D airport. Is that what we want in Montreal ? Maybe so. If you're happy with an O/D airport, YUL might be acceptable (and even for that purpose only I see issues with YUL).

At around 16 millions pax/year, YUL will be saturated. Right now it gets around 10 millions pax/year. With a yearly increase of 2.5%, YUL will reach the 16 million mark within 20 years (17 years with an average growth of 3%). What will we do then ? Even ADM admits it will go back to YMX then. Why not now ? Why invest billions in installations that will serve at most 20 years, when they could serve for ever ?

I still believe Montreal could be a great North-Atlantic hub. Therefore I want an airport that could have the installations to serve as a transit airport. YUL will never be up to that challenge.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:47 am

QB001,

YUL new installations at phase II mark capacity at 15 million. Now let me ask you, have you seen phase III or phase IV of the project? Phase III calls for a whole new domestic concourse with 20 gates, Phase IV calls for expansion of the international fingers.

The problem is QB001, that you cant look more than 20 years ahead. Mirabel was only open in 1976, and today we are 2004. 28 years ago YMX was born, and projections were so different then, but look what really happened? All we can do is project for the next 10 years, and the next 10 years will show that YUL is at the driver's seat. There are too many unstable variables to project what will happen in 20 years from now.

As for Montreal being a trans-atlantic hub, look the trans-atlantic age is coming to a closure.

Right now, the money is in Asia. Perhaps Montreal will gain 2 to 5 trans-atlantic flights.. but that is it. Montreal doesnt have the economics and is too "french" to have the diversification that Toronto has.

Look at Air Transat, out of YUL they serve France, and one token service to UK, Italy and Greece. Out of YYZ, they serve on daily basis France, UK, Germany, Ireland, Portugal, Poland etc.

Lets close this debate and focus on improving Montreal's underlyingf market fundamentals so airlines will look at us and see profit potential.. because if they dont, you can build the worlds greatest terminal, but nobody will be around to park at it.

 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:30 am

Even ADM admits it will go back to YMX then."

Source please.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:34 am

its an interpretation.

James Cherry once said that Dorval will be good for the next 30 years, and somebody asked him if it was possible that a YMX return could follow up subsequently.. he said "its possible".

So of course la gang de conspiracy theorists and pro-YMX people had a field day with this remark.

 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:51 am

Great, thanks FLYYUL. Its crazy, YMX will never be used again. It's time people get over it and accept the fact that YUL is now the only international airport in Montreal. People would rather drive or take a train to Toronto to fly internationally than travel up to YMX. I know I did. It was a nice airport, but it would simply require billions in renovations and new terminals, not to mention the extension of Highway 13 and a rail link. Quebec and Ottawa cannot even get the Highway 30 started.

You made great points FLYYUL. It is unfortunate QB001 does not wish to respond to your "weak" arguments  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

-Brandon
 
Noise
Posts: 2012
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:17 am

I do not comprehend how QB001 cannot understand the great points Mark continues to bring up. Enough is enough...if you too dense to understand how Mirabel is a failure, then its too bad for you.
 
jamtide
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:36 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:31 pm

Good post....

I learnt alot from FLYYUL. Thanks.

 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:53 pm

the trans-atlantic age is coming to a closure.

Are you serious ? It's not because there is more growth in Asia that the North-Atlantic market ceases to exist.

Anyway, you keep bringing the new installations at YUL as an argument that it is a better choice. It doesn't prove anything, except that YUL is the choice ADM made. In other word, it's a circular argument.

Montreal doesnt have the economics and is too "french" to have the diversification that Toronto has.

Maybe CDG is too French too. Or AMS is too Dutch. Ridiculous argument... I told you : stick to the point.

And the market fundamentals you keep referring too are only valid from an O/D perspective. From a hub perspective, it's nearly irrelevant.

Because of its runway limitations, YUL will reach its limit at 16 millions pax. And then what ? On Radio-Canada (I think it is still on their website), Cherry did say, not as a possibility, but as ADM plans, that they'll move to YMX in the future, maybe 20 years from now. So no, it is not a speculation.

And you know what the irony is ? ADM has maintained ATC at YMX (for 100 flights or so / week), just in case a plane misses its curfew at YUL or a snow storm or something similar forces BOS, JFK or EWR to close down, so that it can receive that traffic. Funny that they don't even consider YUL for such events, no ?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:58 pm

The trans-atlantic age is coming to an end. If you pay close attention, network carriers are trying to spread their assets as much as possible over Asia.. look at Austrian to BOM double DEL, Look at Lufthansa, Alitalia to Shanghai, look at AC YYZHKG YYZNRT, and other growths.

"Anyway, you keep bringing the new installations at YUL as an argument that it is a better choice. It doesn't prove anything, except that YUL is the choice ADM made. In other word, it's a circular argument"

-No im bringing this up so I can rebut your "old chevy" remarks about YUL>. you probably havent seen anything yet.

"Maybe CDG is too French too. Or AMS is too Dutch. Ridiculous argument... I told you : stick to the point.

And the market fundamentals you keep referring too are only valid from an O/D perspective. From a hub perspective, it's nearly irrelevant."

-AMS is a hub, convenient for transfers to BRU, NCE, CDG, TLS, MRS, LYS, GVA etc.

Montreal WILL NOT be a hub. Who in gods name is going to start some magical trans-atlantic hub in Montreal?

"Because of its runway limitations, YUL will reach its limit at 16 millions pax. And then what ? On Radio-Canada (I think it is still on their website), Cherry did say, not as a possibility, but as ADM plans, that they'll move to YMX in the future, maybe 20 years from now. So no, it is not a speculation."

-WHAT? Runway limitations? Have you been to FRA or LHR or EWR or LAX?

You gotta be kidding me.. the problem is terminal space, not runway space. When was the last time you saw a plane lineup at Dorval, heck I dont remember ever seeing one  Smile









 
CanadaEH
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:53 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:04 pm

Montreal WILL NOT be a hub. Who in gods name is going to start some magical trans-atlantic hub in Montreal?

I wasn't going to get involved in this until I read that remark. I could've sworn you were saying the complete opposite less than six months ago.  Smile Anywho, I flew to YUL last November and I must say it certainly feels and looks outdated. I guess when I have an airport like YVR to work in everyday, my opinion is kind of jaded.
EH.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Air

Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:43 pm

"You start your reply (#25) with interesting arguments, but then, similarly to FLYYUL, you start mixing airport considerations with politics, aircraft noise, the Olympics and the Expos... Come on."

Oh my goodness! What ever could politics, money and noise have ANYTHING to do with airports? How utterly silly of me.

Your argument that an airport is a benign entity, independent of anything else other than its direct function shows an extrodinarily insular world view.
buhh bye
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:16 pm

CanadaEh,

you are aware that Dorval is going through a 1.3 billion dollar re-transformation  Smile

 
UA744KSFO
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:55 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:26 am

I don't understand the whole runway limitation argument. YMX only has two runways, so what advantage does it have over YUL in this respect?
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:37 am

You can conceivably build 8 runways at YMX if you wanted to....

 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:49 am

The trans-atlantic age is coming to an end.
I'm sorry, but I will not debate such a ridiculous statement.

Montreal WILL NOT be a hub.
Of course it won't, if you don't want to. There is a very simple principle in life : you don't get what you didn't ask for. As I said earlier, you seem to be happy with a simple O/D airport. Fine.

But who would have thought, 15 years ago, that SLC, PHX or CVG would become hubs ? I reject your fatalistic views, as if Montreal was doomed by some sort of supra-natural force. I just have different ambitions for Montreal. Is that still allowed ?

I don't understand the whole runway limitation argument. YMX only has two runways, so what advantage does it have over YUL in this respect?

The fact is that YUL doesn't need an additional runway now; we all agree on that. But YUL main problem (not the only one though) is in its growth potential. YUL is limited to 77 movements/hour and giving the nature of the traffic it gets, mostly made of RJs, DH1, DH3 with some 32x/73x (and a decent amount of G/A traffic), that limit could very well be reached before long. And no way that limitation can be circumvented by adding a fourth runway, it is impossible to add a runway at YUL.

YMX on the other hand has 2 runways now, and has room to accommodate 4 more, all 3600 meters long. I even saw a YMX plan where a seventh shorter runway, about 1000 meters, was planned. Also YMX has all the room it needs to easily accommodate up to 6 additional terminals. Something also impossible at YUL.

In a nutshell, YUL cannot really grow more than what it already has, while growth limitation is virtually not a problem at YMX. All the work that is being done at YUL right now is mostly embellishment and modernization, that will only allow a very limited increase in traffic.

WHAT? Runway limitations? Have you been to FRA or LHR or EWR or LAX?
This is too simplistic. If I want to remain at this very low level of debate, I could conversely point to ORD, DFW, BOS or even AMS. The number of runways issue is determined by many factors, that you obviously don't seem to understand. YUL runways will limit its traffic to about 16 millions pax, then we'll have to move. There are no ways around this.

Your argument that an airport is a benign entity, independent of anything else other than its direct function shows an extrodinarily insular world view.
Well, I'd say that YOU have the insular view. You look at an airport and basically say : "Does it do what it is suppose to do now ? Yes, then end of story". What I say is no, that is not the end of the story. An airport should be a component of a comprehensive transportation infrastructure strategy, which also includes highways, local commuting and railways.

Just to give you a hint, what would happen of YUL if ever the Canadian government finally sees the light of day and okays the building of a high-speed train in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, knowing that most traffic in and out of YUL is from/to YYZ, YOW and YQB ? Don't you think YUL wouldn't be even more irrelevant than it is already ?

In reply #26, I've asked 5 rather simple questions, that nobody bothered to answer seriously. Take the time to think about those questions, and then you'll see who here has an insular view.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:14 am

Qb001

I will respond to your statements.

"I'm sorry, but I will not debate such a ridiculous statement."

-Network growth thrust with current airlines is Asia.. you can do a simple analysis if youd like. There are some trans-atlantic oppurtunities, but they are generally not as desirable as Asia/Middle East/The Sub-Continent oppurtunities.

"Of course it won't, if you don't want to. There is a very simple principle in life : you don't get what you didn't ask for. As I said earlier, you seem to be happy with a simple O/D airport. Fine.

But who would have thought, 15 years ago, that SLC, PHX or CVG would become hubs ? I reject your fatalistic views, as if Montreal was doomed by some sort of supra-natural force. I just have different ambitions for Montreal. Is that still allowed ?"

-Buddy.. Montreal is not in the middle of a dense population zone. PHX/CVG/SLC are natural hubs due to their location. Montreal can be an effective trans-atlantic hub, and Maritimes hub... but that is secondary in nature. You really need to wake up and look at the markets around Montreal.

"In a nutshell, YUL cannot really grow more than what it already has, while growth limitation is virtually not a problem at YMX. All the work that is being done at YUL right now is mostly embellishment and modernization, that will only allow a very limited increase in traffic"

-Thats pure crap. Firstly, runways at YUL are not even close to maximization. I dont know where you pull this crap from. Secondly, the YUL work right now is to increase capacity and efficiency.

Montreal is adopting the YVR style in terms of swing-gates. Furthermore as it stands, YUL doesnt even come close to maximization utilization of EXISTING facilities. Perhaps they do on peak hours, but gate space will double by 2009. Again you need to consider the total expansion picture before you start making general assumptions.

"This is too simplistic. If I want to remain at this very low level of debate, I could conversely point to ORD, DFW, BOS or even AMS. The number of runways issue is determined by many factors, that you obviously don't seem to understand. YUL runways will limit its traffic to about 16 millions pax, then we'll have to move. There are no ways around this"

-Prove it. I have an expansion document in front of me which indicates runway capacity at 30 million, per ADM's master plan. Where are you gettign this number from?

Your trying to keep this at a low level debate in order to provide substance to your point.

"Just to give you a hint, what would happen of YUL if ever the Canadian government finally sees the light of day and okays the building of a high-speed train in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, knowing that most traffic in and out of YUL is from/to YYZ, YOW and YQB ? Don't you think YUL wouldn't be even more irrelevant than it is already ?"

-No.. because a lot of it is transfer traffic. There is relatively few passengers who are willing to buy a Montreal-Ottawa or Quebec City plane ticket. These people fly via Montreal to Europe, Eastern USA, and the Maritimes.

Furthermore, YYZ is sadly the hub. And YYZ will command all kinds of international flow over YYZ. This is the beauty of network design.

A high-speed train might in fact help YUL (assuming that a train station where to be built in the terminal as per the master plan) reaching pax from towns like Kingston, Cornwall, Brockville, Belleville, Alexandria, Ottawa, Trois-Rivieres etc. Instead of taking the car and paying for parking, you hitch on the train, fast simple and efficient.











 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:38 am

What a joke. Anyway, I'll give it one last chance, hoping (but I'm not holding my breath) that you'll be able to go above and beyond your opinion to try and understand what I'm saying.

Network growth thrust with current airlines is Asia
Have I disputed that ? The fact is that North-Atlantic traffic will keep growing, but at a lower pace. I just don't understand why you deny that.

Montreal is not in the middle of a dense population zone
That is just showing a very poor understanding of geography and the flow of commerce. If what you say was anywhere near the shadow of a truth, the port of Montreal would be a marina.

But the port of Montreal is one of the largest in North-America because of its strategic location. Very few of the millions of containers that ship through Montreal stop/start their journey here; they transit here, that's all. So why is it that what is true for all sort of goods wouldn't be true for pax? Montreal could be a trans-Atlantic hub pretty much the same way AMS is a hub. I can't count the number of people that I know who have been all over Europe, the Middle-East and Asia that flew on KLM through AMS. Geee, even my old parents did transit through AMS on their way to Malaga...

Firstly, runways at YUL are not even close to maximization
You are just showing poor debate skills here, because you couldn't point where I said anything close to that. I'll quote myself from reply #46 : The fact is that YUL doesn't need an additional runway now; we all agree on that.

Listen FLYYUL : I think you're just too emotional and that you don't take the time it takes to read and properly understand what I write. And, come to think of it, I'd rather stop here for now because, obviously, you just can't take a little challenge to your strong and emotional opinions.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: YUL (Montreal-Trudeau) Now Montreal's Only Airport

Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:58 am

"Have I disputed that ? The fact is that North-Atlantic traffic will keep growing, but at a lower pace. I just don't understand why you deny that."

-Yes.. but the lower growth rate, which is Montreal main growth potential, will in turn not require significant installation expansion in YMQ. What we have right now and what we will see for a long time, barring a few additions and cancellations here and there.

"That is just showing a very poor understanding of geography and the flow of commerce. If what you say was anywhere near the shadow of a truth, the port of Montreal would be a marina.

But the port of Montreal is one of the largest in North-America because of its strategic location. Very few of the millions of containers that ship through Montreal stop/start their journey here; they transit here, that's all. So why is it that what is true for all sort of goods wouldn't be true for pax? Montreal could be a trans-Atlantic hub pretty much the same way AMS is a hub. I can't count the number of people that I know who have been all over Europe, the Middle-East and Asia that flew on KLM through AMS. Geee, even my old parents did transit through AMS on their way to Malaga"

-Please teach me about flow  Big grin Montreal is not an effective trans-atlantic hub because its market fundamentals will not allow for it to have much more services. Montreal does not have the POPULATION REACH that AMS or LHR or even YYZ does. Make a circle of 1 hour flight ojut of AMS, and do the same for YUL. I wonder if youd be surprised to see the contrast.

Montreal has a strategic location for trans-atlantic, but so does New York, and Toronto.

And please, Montreal is a container port because of GEOGRAPHICAL limitations. A contaienr ship would have a tough time getting passed Montreal. So this is pretty much a god given gift  Smile

What you are hoping for is some airline to create Montreal into a trans-atlantic hub a la AMS. It wont happen.

1 hour flight out of YUL: YHZ, YQB, YOW, BOS, LGA, YQM etc

1 hour flight out of YYZ: LGA, WAS, PHL, PIT, DTW, CLE, BUF, YUL, YOW, YHM, YXU, YAM, YQG, YTS, ALB, BDL etc.

1 hour flight of AMS: LHR, BRU, CDG, GVA, FRA, MUC etc etc etc etc.

Lastly, Montreal is not a competitive stop option for American travel. Canada is not due to Canadian Customs and American pre-clearance formalities.

"You are just showing poor debate skills here, because you couldn't point where I said anything close to that. I'll quote myself from reply #46 : The fact is that YUL doesn't need an additional runway now; we all agree on that.

Listen FLYYUL : I think you're just too emotional and that you don't take the time it takes to read and properly understand what I write. And, come to think of it, I'd rather stop here for now because, obviously, you just can't take a little challenge to your strong and emotional opinions."

-Well lets ask the jury in this thread who is winning this debate so far mr.qb001  Smile

You said that YUL will shortly reach the 16 million runway capacity that you had described.. im telling you your numbers are factually wrong.

I can disprove you by citing ADM material.... your using god knows what.