emrecan
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 7:20 am

Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:17 pm

Hi everybody.

I wonder why Saudia mostly uses 777s for European routes. Isn`t it expensive for them?

thnxxxx
 
roblondon70
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:22 pm

Status symbols?? Did they not get them by some barter deal??

Surely no justification except to LHR. Other routes are served at poor frequency levels and with too many stops.

Perhaps these routes should be abandoned or seved with smaller types?? I doubt SV is accustomed to worrying overly about its balance sheet though.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:33 pm

I would agree that SV should have downgraded to smaller equipment for most European routes AGES ago - but perhaps they are stuck in a nostalgic L1011 era, when they had big luxurious widebodies flying absolutely everywhere during the oil boom, and money was no object.

They fly to NCE weekly with a 777 - I don't know how well the flight does though. It doesn't connect very well to anywhere via RUH, so one asks oneself really, is there any point ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logi

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:34 pm

It is not only the 772 operating into Europe. ATH and MXP are scheduled by a M90.

Saudi Arabian doesn't have a lot of options too. Do you think operating 744, 743 or 741 would be the cheaper way?
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
cloud4000
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:49 pm

Saudia is not run along business lines, but like most government-owned entities, it's used for political patronage.

Saudia bought the 777s (and MD-11s, 744s, MD-90s) under political pressure from the US. In reality, it didn't need that many aircraft, nor did they have money to pay them.

And I believe the royal family can fly on Saudia for free, thus explain flights to Nice, Geneva, etc.
Boston, USA
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:01 pm

The Royal Family don't typically fly on Saudia...they have their own fleet. in fact there is a runway or used to be in RUH when i lived there, for the king only.

The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:37 pm

Saudia doesn't have to make a profit. It is a status symbol of the country, especially on international routes.
 
cloud4000
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:12 am

When I mean royal family, I mean the thousands of prince and princesses, their families, their servants, hanger-on, what have you. Not all of them have their own jets.

Boston, USA
 
roblondon70
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:13 am

are you sure????!!! LOL
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:33 am

The Royal Family don't typically fly on Saudia...they have their own fleet.

There are over 2000 Royal Family members. Only a select few have their own VIP planes operated by Saudi Arabian.

Saudi Arabian uses its 777s on domestic routes and on Middle East routes as well.

When I look at routes such as Jeddah - Beirut, Riyadh - Beirut, Jeddah - Damascus, Riyadh - Damascus, Jeddah - Amman, Riyadh - Amman, Jeddah -Cairo, Riyadh - Cairo, Dammam - Cairo, etc. flights are always full in all classes just a few days before the day's flight.

People in the Middle East are used to flying on routes of low frequencies and getting on larger aircraft.

It's not like in the west where routes are served at high frequencies and smaller aircraft for convenience purposes and connections.

Emirates, Qatar Airways, Gulf Air all do the same also to a certain extent. Their difference though is they focus on connections through their hubs, so they typically operate more frequencies.

Saudi Arabian does not market themselves for connections. They simply cater the Saudi market.

Speaking of Nice though, Emirates flies 773s there via Rome.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:52 am

Saudia is a great airline. It is also one of the world's worst. It all depends on which route you are travelling and the status that destination holds for the Saudis. IE: Flying to SIN or India isn't a nice experience but flying to LHR, JFK, KUL and a few others the service is really quite good.

Unlike the West, the Saudi public do not normally book their travel in advance. It is quite normal to decide your family holiday destination that morning! All flts tend to be heavily overbooked as they change their plans at the last minute too.

The saudis like space when they travel and the 777 gives them that. Like any airline flts during the week have lower loads and their weekend flts are pretty much full. Trying to get a flt from Europe to RUH or JED on a Thu or Fri (their weekend) is near impossible.

Using a 777 to Europe is not a waste. The way they travel demands an aircraft like the 777.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
BG001
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:28 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:22 am

Saudi Arabian doesn't have a lot of options too. Do you think operating 744, 743 or 741 would be the cheaper way?

you are absolutely right...except for a few A300..B777s are the smallest widebodied and newest aircraft in their pax fleet. at the same time..none of their europen loads justifies flying 777s. not even LHR. Most of the time they go out of RUH or JED with less than 100 on board.

Saudia is a great airline. It is also one of the world's worst. It all depends on which route you are travelling and the status that destination holds for the Saudis.

110% right. I took their 744 flight out of JFK to JED and then RUH to JFK...great experience , great service...then 741 flight to and from DAC...oh man....I PROMISED THAT I WOULD RATHER WALK THAN TAKING SV FLIGHTS TO DAC.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:35 am

BG001
Glad to see that someone else has had the same experience as me!

The pleasure, the pain that is Saudia.

Cheers
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logi

Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:57 am

I flew SV on following sectors:
GVA-JED on 772
JED-BKK on 744
DAC-RUH on 743
RUH-JED-ATH-MXP on M90

all flights where ok. food was good, crew was nice and friendly and no bad experience. except the 12hrs layover in RUH. Even the DAC-RUH flight on the 743 was ok, must be because we got upgraded to F class  Big grin !
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
hz747300
Posts: 1906
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:09 am

Saudia is not run along business lines, but like most government-owned entities, it's used for political patronage.

Saudia bought the 777s (and MD-11s, 744s, MD-90s) under political pressure from the US. In reality, it didn't need that many aircraft, nor did they have money to pay them.

And I believe the royal family can fly on Saudia for free, thus explain flights to Nice, Geneva, etc.


Read the book, "Birds of Prey". Both the US Government and the European Governments were pushing hard for the Saudia fleet renewal deal. Saudi Arabian (then DBA as Saudia) did not buy more than they need, nor they pressured. Airbus and Boeing were bending over backwards to win that deal.

And your comment about "not having the money to pay them" does not even past the laugh test.

There has been a shift in the Western traffic to the Kingdom. Most Westerners fly Western airlines to the Kingdom now (for liquor, not having wear the abaya, and nudity on the PTVs), whereas before that was not the case. First, the the two stop flights are not convenient, and there is enough service from at least one Euro country per day to satisfy the demand. Saudi Arabian probably flies the 777s to Europe because the 744s make no sense, and the MD90s do not necessarily have the range. Saudi Arabian could have been well-served with an aircraft in the A332/767 class for those routes, they chose not to buy them.
Keep on truckin'...
 
cloud4000
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:43 am

Could not find the book you mentioned, please cite the author.

Nevertheless, I get my information from the book Sleeping with the Devil by Robert Baer. He says that the Clinton Administration pressured the Saudis to purchase Boeing aircraft.

And Saudis could afford the aircraft because of depressed oil prices andtheir already crushing debt load. But politics is politics, I suppose.
Boston, USA
 
fd728
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:38 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:03 am

Well they obviously need something smaller than the Triple 7 in their fleet to fill the gap and to replace the A306s with those well serving but not really economical JT9Ds. What about a potential 7E7 customer? Or is it Airbus' turn now? Maybe they hop on the Qatar train to start a competition between the A350 and the 7E7. I've seen Saudi be more progressive in recent months with lots of commercials on CNN and presenting a "New World of Choices". Maybe they are more keen on competing with those growing neighbor airlines such as Emirates and Qatar now.
However, I read here on a.net that a replacement being sought for the last 732s is more imminent. Curious on how fast they decide when to place an order.

FD728
 
alespesl
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:59 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:20 am

SV flew this summer between PRG and JED & RUH on 777. The flight continued from PRG to FRA, however they did not sell tickets for PRG-FRA sector. That would be very nice to fly on B777 from PRG to FRA.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:27 am

Ales,
I remember someone on a.net asking about interesting intra-European flights onboard widebodies. I was recommending him FRA-PRG-FRA with Saudia. It was offered for 170-190 EUR on , btw a really good webpage selling last minute deals for scheduled flights.
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:21 am

I lived in Dubai for two years, and used to fly to Doha for my visa run. EK usually operates the A330 on that route, but twice a week (or at least it was twice a week back in 2001 / 2002), those flights were on 777-200's. It's amazing to go on a 20 minute flight in a 777. I used to take a book with me and leave it at my seat, go through the Doha terminal and get back into the same seat for the return flight.

Of all my visa flights, most were on 777's (I'd go specifically on the days they'd operate the 777), some were on A330's, and I even flew on their old A-310 one night. All were pleasant flights. Most were full, and Dubai made TONS of money in the process.
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
alespesl
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:59 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:47 am

L410Turbolet

Can you tell me where can you buy such flights? I might have had that website, but since i formatted my disk, i have lost everthing. If you have it, please send it to me. If you know any other places where to buy good tickets, send them as well.

Thanks
Ales
 
andrej
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:59 am

Hello all,

I am just wondering, but B777 has pretty good cargo capacity, right? Maybe they are are having high demand for cargo thus they use widebodies to EU.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
cloud4000
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:21 am

I've seen photos on A.net of SV 777s in Salzburg. Do they fly there regularly as well?
Boston, USA
 
EK345
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:12 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:27 pm

I am sure that the professionals whose job it is to accurately forecast capacity needs know what they are doing and this is why Saudi Arabian decided to go with 772s for its European routes. These flights have been booked solid especially since more Arabs have now started to avoid the US and focus their leisure and money on Europe and Southeast Asia.

I suppose you would use this same argument for the 744 short regional flights in places like Japan?

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
EK345
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:12 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:33 pm

Ironically in another thread the shortest widebody flights are also being discussed. Maybe we should be talking about some of the routes mentioned there instead of the 5+ hr full load flights on the Saudi Arabian 772s to Europe.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1803054/

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
emrecan
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 7:20 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:39 pm

Thank you everyone for your replies...

I`ve flown with SV several times from Istanbul to Madinah and Jeddah to Istanbul. Most flights were with 777s and 747-100s. I flied on business class and they were really great experiences.

Next week I will fly to Madinah again with 741. I am really excited..

I also want to add that 2 years ago I flew from Jeddah to Madinah with SV A300-600.. The A/C was full of pax. and most of the people didn`t switched off their mobile phones, but it was a nice flight...


 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:36 pm

The short hop flights within the gulf on wide bodied aircraft make sense as a filler between European Destinations. A 777 can easily do a LON - DXB - LON return, and have time to do a DOH or MCT return.

DL do the same with their 763ER fleet to and from Florida from ATL. They dont buy the aircraft for these short routes, but schedule them in to meet demand.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:38 pm

"The short hop flights within the gulf on wide bodied aircraft make sense as a filler between European Destinations."

In fact the SV LHR-JED evening departure does the first JED-RUH flt and is back in time in JED to do the lunchtime JED-LHR again.

Most of the flts from JED and RUH to Europe are not full. Probably only a third to half full. Only the weekend/Hajj/Ramadan flts are full capacity. First and J class tend to be people travelling on free Gov't tickets.

Cheers all.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
hbfly
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:45 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:33 am

I've seen photos on A.net of SV 777s in Salzburg. Do they fly there regularly as well?

You are talking about this one??

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bernhard Dallner


<--Sorry for this shameless plug-->

SV doesn't fly to Salzburg regularly.
All SV flights to and from Salzburg are operated for the royal family.
For the most part they use the 772, 747SP or MD90, depending on how many people they have to transport.

Regards,
Bernhard
Bernhard Dallner -- Salzburg - W.A. Mozart (SZG / LOWS) -- Canon EOS 300D
 
yak42
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 6:17 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:23 am

Why cant they use their A306s of which they have 10 or so, for the European routes more often? I think they would be more appropriate for thinner routes and higher frequencies.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Irfan CALISKAN

 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Saudia Uses 777s For Europe Routes. Is It Logical?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:09 am

Yak42,

They use the A300s mostly on domestic routes and a few Middle Eastern routes.

I have heard some of SV's European routes like LHR and CDG fill up very nicely while there are others which tend to have lighter loads.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, aviationaware, Baidu [Spider], barney captain, coolian2, Google [Bot], jambrain, northwest_guy, speedbored, SuperSix2, Sylus, xxxpan and 181 guests