BestWestern
Topic Author
Posts: 7190
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:39 pm

MAN to BCN, BOD, CDG and MJV are going going gone.

Oh dear, WW can't make it in an airport with no low cost competition....

I know, lets try BHX, home of MYT, FlyBe and Ryanair!, and a considerable part of our EMA catchment area.


You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:55 pm

Seems perfectly normal for a LCC to change its network over the winter - Ryanair and easyJet do it as well.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:00 pm

Sheesh, if a LCC cant make MAN-BCN work year round though, what hope do they have? I know they have competition from Monarch, but still...MAN has a big enough area for two airlines to BCN surely? Especially with IB dropping the route this winter
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:06 pm

Trident2e that's correct, but none of these routes are particularly seasonal...

BestWestern point taken on the BHX comment, but BHX is hardly 'home to Ryanair' - quite the opposite really as they pulled most their flights from there!

Out of curiosity, why are you so critical of bmiBaby?





[Edited 2004-11-05 11:33:10]
I don't like signatures...
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:15 pm

It's not anti BMIbaby views that people like BestWestern and myself feel. It's sheer frustration - there is the potential for a fantastic airline with bmi and baby and the continued mismanagement and trend of cutting routes is so wrong it beggars belief!

If the aircraft that was damaged last night at MAN is beyond repair they really are up the proverbial creek without the paddle.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
BestWestern
Topic Author
Posts: 7190
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:43 pm

Diesel, I am a loyal BMI fan, and a Bmi Diamond Club Gold card-holder who flies frequently with BD ex Heathrow. What really frustrates me about BMI is that they don’t focus anywhere, and over the past five years or so always react in a knee jerk fashion to everyone else in the industry. Baby is a classic example of this. This division lacks direction and vision to become successful.

Why does BD need three sets of management and three AOC’s to run what is a small airline (Regional, Mainline and Baby)?
Why does BD need two brands? (Bmi and Bmi Regional), and the necessary brand costs to promote these names in the UK.
Is BD a business airline… if so why do they sacrifice business route frequency to BRU, CDG, to fly to NAP, VCE, etc. If not, why isn’t BD a low cost carrier.
If BD is a network carrier, why are they starting a LBA LCY service on leased ATR’s
If Baby is a leisure airline, why do they fly domestic business routes?
If Baby is a low cost carrier, why do they code share on ATRs ex CWL?
If Baby is a low cost carrier, why can I use the Airport lounges when I fly with them?

What’s obvious to me is that BD and WW are fighting for the same passengers. Leisure and Business routes need to be successfully marketed together.

My action plan would be:
Drop the Baby brand… Close the Baby and Regional AOC’s and management structures. All aircraft under the BD AOC and management structure with one head office in London, taking many of the low cost concepts learnt at WW over to BD.

Re-commence BD operations as BD ex MAN and BHX focusing on business and leisure destinations, with a quality product. Big focus on winning the Manchester market.

Refocus BMI regional onto serving Manchester more than Scotland.

Close WW’s operations in MME, CWL and EMA. Maintain the few profitable routes using W patterns from other airports. (MANCDGCWLCDGMAN)

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:48 pm

Mark

I understand your frustration - the chopping and changing indicates a lack of vision and focus.

Don't believe they'd be up the proverbial creek if the aircraft in last last night's incident is badly damaged or a write off - either bmi will bale them out (subject to aircraft availability) or they'll lease/charter another aircraft (European Air Charter...?).
Wonder whether it's all covered by insurance...?




(Edited to add thanks to Best Western for his comprehensive response)

[Edited 2004-11-05 11:51:47]
I don't like signatures...
 
Simon Cooper
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2000 7:36 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:55 pm

This is fine, all these negative views and opinions. Spare a thought though for peoples lives in all this. People who work for Baby and are happy working there! You lot who continually put Baby down really get on my nerves!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Simon Cooper

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:58 pm

Simon, it's not the people on the frontline people are putting down...it's the management. Fair enough, I aint ever flown on BMI Baby but Im sure they have great crews. It just appears that the management dont know what they are going to do from one day to the next.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:09 pm

GKirk is dead right Simon - where does anyone on here slate the crews and frontline staff?

BMIBaby are great to fly on!

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
BestWestern
Topic Author
Posts: 7190
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:15 pm

Simon. I like BD, and want them to survive and grow… BD (which would include WW) would become a stronger company focused on growing their business with one brand that the customer likes and enjoys and is willing to pay more for.

If BA can beat EasyJet from Gatwick through providing good service, BD can do the same against a weaker Jet2 in Manchester and weaker FlyBe in BHX. This would secure many more roles than currently in place – perhaps at the expense of over an over-complicated management structure. As the low cost market matures the majority will be willing to pay more for value over poor service... BA are finding that out to their benefit.

If BD and WW dont change there will be less job security in a loss making division (WW) of a loss making company (BD) with struggling owners (SK, LH). Working in a loss making airline isn't fun... I’ve been there and bought the T-Shirt.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:23 pm

Well said Bestwestern. The only thing I think you need to add is that BMI should put a few Jungle Jets back into EMA to run the fairly strong former business routes to GLA, EDI, AMS and CDG (much as they've already converted BRU back to a "real" service).

Simon Cooper - I'm sorry for the staff at the sharp end, but the bmi management are now reaping what they previously sowed with Baby. Don't blame the customers who knock baby, blame the management who set the airline up under what was originally a flawed concept. Baby was a synical and relatively unplanned knee-jerk response to Go moving into EMA, which was only partly successful in achieving what it set out to do. It is now beginning to backfire as their scattergun and unfocussed approach has resulted in them moving capacity around the UK to try to find profitable work (rather than identifying the profitable work first and then operating it with commitment and conviction), and as they realise that whatever they say about being "low cost" they can't usually compete with the true low-cost operators such as Ryanair and Easyjet (as witnessed by their embarrassing pull outs at LGW and MAN, and the continous downsizing at EMA).

bmi alienated and disenfranchised many passengers in the East Midlands region, particularly in the business community, when they suddenly withdrew from EMA and put in Baby. That left some of us who used EMA, particularly for connections over airports like AMS and CDG, without any viable locally departing services (because of the lack of through check-in, etc). So don't expect me and people like me to feel sorry for baby if the model doesn't work as well as you might have hoped, because its bmi's lack of commitment to its long-standing customers that is directly responsible for me flying 30+ times this year out of BHX with airlines like LH, SK and BA, whereas in previous years I would have flown a similar amount of times out of EMA.

I am actually disappointed that Baby are pulling out of Manchester - MAN can keep Baby. The sooner we are rid of Baby at EMA the better however, whatever the consequences of that might be for those involved.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
UK_Dispatcher
Posts: 2254
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 8:44 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:27 pm

I have seen photos this morning of the damaged WW a/c (Boeing 737-300 G-ODSK), and it was badly damaged. The impact of the collision with the 767 twisted the aircraft and buckled the nosewheel, and the bulk of the damage was to the stabilizer, a large part of which ended up lying on the taxiway. It looks like there may also be damage to the fuselage around the stabilizer. Not good at all.....

A Titan Airways 757-200, G-ZAPU was filling in for G-ODSK this morning.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:42 pm

WW shutting down a hub ? Wow, that's never happened before ! Only 86 to go.

BD would be better off ditching WW completely - regardless of how good a service they offer on the ground and on board, they are not able to generate the critical mass necessary to be a successful LCC. The route selection appears to be entirely based on whatever the Marketing department read in the Travel Section of the Sunday Telegraph the previous weekend, and shows very little in the way of a coherent strategy. New hubs every season, that are rapidly downgraded to one daily service then canned. This is not how you build a loyal repeat customer base.

BD need to figure this out pronto - they're focussing on the wrong markets. I really like flying BD, Diamond Club is my Star Alliance Frequent Flyer card of choice, they offer great service etc etc, but they just aren't on a par with carriers like BA when it comes to frequencies and timings. I had a choice between BD and BA to fly home for Christmas - fares on both were the same and very reasonable, but BA have 4 daily returns LHR-NCE, at convenient times, whereas BD only have 1, which would get me to LHR at 2155 !! This is not enough to make a dent in the market. Sort your priorities out !!
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:43 pm

Ian,

What is the situation at MAN surrounding BMIBaby now? From your perspective you muct hear all sorts. Anything interesting?
Also, how did the Excel 767 fair?

[Edited 2004-11-05 13:46:19]
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
richardw
Posts: 3142
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:59 pm

they need to be part of a european strategy that includes Germanwings.
Is there a chance that they could encourage U2 to leave EMA?
 
BestWestern
Topic Author
Posts: 7190
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:23 pm

JPGH I had a choice between BD and BA to fly home for Christmas - fares on both were the same and very reasonable

No EuJet then?

selection appears to be entirely based on whatever the Marketing department read in the Travel Section of the Sunday Telegraph the previous weekend

Sunday times actually... why do you think some low cost carriers ended up in REK for gods sake  Smile  Smile

Only 86 to go.

I was right the other day when I excluded Gatwick....

they need to be part of a european strategy that includes Germanwings Richard Alliances are no excuse for running a bad business. Hence the failure of Star to help its carriers profitability.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
richardw
Posts: 3142
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:46 pm

I was suggesting a bit of joining up with other star LCCs, maybe even in branding, how many prospective passengers know about easyJet switzerland, for instance.
Joining up would save on advertising and brand promotional costs, which is precisely why Baby failed at LGW.
I agree that the basics of business are very important for success.
 
ZKOJH
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:51 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:22 am

ive flown with them once from ema to jer, and the flight only had something like 25 people on a 733, seems ww are not ready for the lcc market yet, think they should remerge back to bd.
Vietnam time..
 
Foxy
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:57 am

I don't understand why BD don't focus more effort towards MAN. It has a huge catchment area and is serviced to lots of other international destinations so would be attractive for people changing flights. Surely it could murder BA at MAN if it actually took the effort especially if there was more service from other STAR airlines?
 
David_itl
Posts: 5990
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Bmi Baby Axe Four Manchester Routes

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:24 am


Back in July when they revealed the MAN winter services, they included the following paragraphs in the release:

"The airline will also be offering daily flights to Knock (Connaught) and Cork, regular departures to Belfast (International), Alicante, Jersey, Malaga and Palma and a weekly service to Murcia. Three based bmibaby aircraft will be operating over one hundred and twenty flights per week throughout Europe from Manchester.

Tony Davis, managing director, bmibaby, said:
"We are continuing to offer new routes that we introduced in March to Jersey and Knock. Unfortunately, the availability of aircraft and slot restrictions have forced us to suspend services to Paris and Bordeaux, however, we're hoping to be able to reintroduce these at some point in the future."

In addition, MAN-PRG is now 13 weekly up from daily.

David

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