airish
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Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:34 am

Indian private airlines might be allowed to fly to all international destinations except for the gulf according to this article

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/916749.cms

Does anyone think that in the light of what is in this article it might happen to the dates mentioned and if it will happen at all given the current government.

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jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:01 am

By tomorrow, Air India and its band of screechy GOI supporters will have turned this policy around on some nonsensical public policy initiative.

Don't hold your breath.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
RupesNZ
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:46 am

That's probably right - I can't see the Indian government forgoing their monopolistic revenue stream from the state owned airlines in a hurry. If Jet gets the rights to fly international then people will abandon AI and IA more quickly than you can say AI 777
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:03 pm

I am not going to comment, except to say that if the MoCA can really pass this in 15 days while most routine matters to do with AI/IC are left pending for a year or longer - one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:39 pm


one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.

Well who cares. As long as this leads somewhere!! For too long the Indian civil aviation market has been constrained. Bilaterals are signed not according to traffic growtrh but according to Air India's ability (or lack of) to compete. There have been cases where an Airline hasnt been allowed in until AI was given a cut of the deal! In a sense, AI is Indias Aeroflot.

If Indian aviation has to grow, the Air India fixation must be dealth with first. Mr Patel is NOT, repeat NOT the minister for Air India, he is the minister for Civil Aviation.

Domestic aviation was also a monopoly till a decade back until pvt carriers were allowed in. Have we fared well since then? Certainly! The Indian passenger today has a lot more options and increased competition has certainly made domestic air travel more efficent, reliable and accessible.

There is no reason to follow a separate set of rules for international traffic.

-Roy
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:10 pm

Mr Patel is NOT, repeat NOT the minister for Air India, he is the minister for Civil Aviation.

However, the Minister of Civil Aviation has an explicit mandate to promote the interests of Indian Airlines and Air India.

Domestic deregulation was a mess to begin with but settled down once IC was given sufficient autonomy to compete. A similar situation will unfold with international deregulation. However, lets skip the initial mess and give AI the autonomy to begin with - then release everybody into a free market.

The MoCA cannot have it both ways. For all the Naresh Chandra Report's faults, it specifically advocates a level playing field before international deregulation. Praful Patel is trying to selectively choose those aspects of the reccomendations that suit the agenda of his private sector patrons at the expense of a taxpayer owned asset. That is not conduct that one should expect from a Cabinet minister.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:07 pm

I am not going to comment, except to say that if the MoCA can really pass this in 15 days while most routine matters to do with AI/IC are left pending for a year or longer - one truly has to wonder whether all dealings by the airlines in question have been conducted above board.

Boo effing hoo. As much as I like and swear by Air India, I won't shed a tear if Jet do get to fly wherever they want and do damage to AI. So Goyal brought something to the table that AI management could not. So what? Nothing happens "above the board" in India. That's a reality we're all too aware of and a reality we're all going to have to accept. Whether we like it or loathe it.

We have long ago reached and passed the point where the government cannot continue to prevent other carriers from flying to places AI can't. Nor has any government been willing to enable AI from doing so. About bloody time the wonderful minister stops playing bitch in the manger.

Whatever happens (so long as it happens), one thing's for sure: the flying public benefits. As wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they can't come remotely close to Jet. And as wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they are probably one of the worst in the world in all other areas.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:28 pm

It seems too good to be true.I'll wait for 15 days.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
karan69
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:05 pm

15 DAYS-guys this is our GREAT BHARAT MATA with her world famous corrupt power drunk politicians.
Lets all just take a nice break and enjoy the Diwali and Eid holidays and let the Communist bug the govt. with this proposal and object to it
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:08 pm

"However, the Minister of Civil Aviation has an explicit mandate to promote the interests of Indian Airlines and Air India."

Not at the expense of the interests of the beleagured and over-taxed Indian citizen - that hapless soul who's been bankrolling these tawdry enterprises now for over 50 years.

AI and IC have to serve the interests of the Indian national, not vice versa.

And if public policy is better served by allowing the private sector serve the Indian public, then the GOI will hopefully find a way around the Air India as sacred "Go-maata" syndrome.

The Indian expatriate community of millions around the world couldn't be happier if this were to happen. We'd rather our travel expenditures be directed to an Indian company (instead of those de facto Indian carriers, courtesy of the GOI - Emirates, Gulf Air, SQ, Lufthansa, etc) - especially one that provides us with a world class product. Which Jet has shown over and over again that it can. The reputation that Jet enjoys among both Indian-Americans as well as other Americans who visit India for business and pleasure is second to none. Sadly, even though AI isn't anywhere as bad as most people think it is, its got its work cut out.

So as far as Air India goes, I am sure it will find a way to compete effectively much in the same way that BA did when Virgin began to bite into its monopoly. We may even see AI return to its early 70s JRD "Tata Palace in the Sky" pishposh status of premier carriers in the world. It aint going to be happen with a bunch of IAS officers basking in their protectionist cocoon and taking 1000 days to effectively change to a less abrasive TP.
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jasepl
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:16 pm

15 DAYS-guys this is our GREAT BHARAT MATA with her world famous corrupt power drunk politicians.
Lets all just take a nice break and enjoy the Diwali and Eid holidays and let the Communist bug the govt. with this proposal and object to it


Don't worry Karan.... no one's holding their breath. That's the twisted beauty of it!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:53 pm


Domestic deregulation was a mess to begin with but settled down once IC was given sufficient autonomy to compete.

IC still doesnt have much autonomy. And i am not sure they need it even!! Why should state-owned carriers be treated specially? What for?

I think that IC is seriously disadvantaged in the current situation vv the pvt carriers. IC is vulnerable to all kinds of pulls and pressures (even more than AI would potentially be) to operate to every little town and village and send A320's at that, 'cos the 737's are too downmarket!

Ultimately the passengers interests are paramount. IC and AI have a role to play as a stabilizing factor. But that does not warrant any special treatment. What they need is a level-playing field. What they need is freedom to resist the kinds of pulls and pressures they are otherwise subjected to.

-Roy
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:57 pm

IC and AI have a role to play as a stabilizing factor. But that does not warrant any special treatment. What they need is a level-playing field. What they need is freedom to resist the kinds of pulls and pressures they are otherwise subjected to.


For once, Roy and I are in 100% complete agreement.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:20 pm

"What they need is a level-playing field."

Which for some reason in your mind entails the absence of any home grown Indian competition, yet EK will probably launch multiple A380s to India in a few years. So much for the creation of additional high paying Indian jobs contributing to the Indian economy.

Lets face it. IC and AI have had 5 decades of a "level-playing field" and after all this uber protection have produced a shoddy product that have sucked up tax payer funds. If by level playing field you mean the absence of GOI interference in AI and IC's day to day operation, dream on. Both corporations are essentially cash laden arms of the GOI, and as you probably know only too well, why should the GOI give up its shameful control of entities that pads its pockets? So your cries for a level playing field are essentially a cry for a utopia, when in fact the reality of governance in India runs opposite to this ideal.

At the end of the day, its not whether this is fair to AI or IC, its respective unions, or its aunty-jis. Its whether the Indian flying public is being adequately served with the best product at a cost that doesn't drain tax coffers. Better that be done with an Indian company that predominantly hires Indian nationals, than Emirates or Gulf Air or Etihad.
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mdsh00
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully Internation

Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:28 pm

As wonderful as AI's inflight service is, they can't come remotely close to Jet.

Jasepl,

I can't agree with you more. I have to disagree with you about AI's service though. The couple times we flew AI in the early 90s, I, along with my parents got horrible treatment from the crew that we decided to never travel on AI again. Maybe we were getting the NRI treatment  Confused? That being said, I flew on Jet from BOM to AMD and DEL to AMD on IC. Jet was leaps and bounds better than IC on every aspect. I would definitely not mind traveling them internationally.
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a340roy
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:32 pm

Well, whatever, I think this was ound to happen, and of course, for the good of pvt. airlines and horrible for AI/IC. We will have 2 results of this whole issue, either AI/Ic pull up their game now...change drastically(which is so impossible) and COMPETE...or forget about it. employees of AI/IC pack bags and leave...which is so sad!

It is a shame on the Indian Govt. for really really NOT allowing AI/IC and their Management to freely make their move. Not saying that AI/IC have an amazing team of high class Managers...but hey...if at all AI/Ic were so horrible and un-professional, it definitely would not survive till date.

I am very happy for Jet and Sahara and am definitely proud that India is being represented by more than just AI/IC....but being optimistic, AI/IC...you need to work out modern management to simply survive, forget making profits now!

Roy..
AR-FRA
 
airish
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:48 pm

The Communists won't be a problem then. One would have thought that they would object to this.


Also does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines.

Also will we see AI launch a lot of new flights in a short space of time to stop private airlines from being able to operate some of these routes like YYZ for example.

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ourboeing
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:50 am

I see a lot of you are putting AI and IC down but you know what, I have had worst service on a lot of other airlines. The latest being my Air Canada flight from YYZ-DEL and back. The flight to DEL was okay but the one back was full of flight attendants from hell. As we all know, that particular flight has a lot of non-english speaking senior Indians flying to YYZ and I overheard these two FAs talking as they were just about to roll the food cart out. The exact words out of one of the FAs mouth were, "Lets go back to the jungle". My wife and I were stunned at their behavior. Another one of the flight attendants refused to refill this woman's coffee and very bluntly told her that he will come back and attend to her after he is done serving everyone else. I actually listed my whole experience here when I got back from that trip and had also emailed Air Canada and have not heard from them since. I will never EVER recommend anyone to fly that airline, even if it is for free. Atleast I won't.

 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:48 am

"I see a lot of you are putting AI and IC down but you know what, I have had worst service on a lot of other airlines."

The inflight service on Air India is far, far, far superior than that on any North American carrier. But since when was that a standard? The service on Aeroflot pre-glasnost was probably superior to the obnoxious standards of service we endure on North American legacy carriers.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
stealthpilot
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully Internation

Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:14 am

I won’t talk about service standards, but I do believe (as does everyone) that private carriers should be allowed to fly wherever and whenever they want.

AI (and IC s) biggest objection is that 9W and S2 will fly away with the market while they can’t because, to put it simply the government runs them. I mean in terms of scheduling, buying new aircraft or whatever it takes way too much time everyone knows that. So in a very small way AI and IC have a point.
But the main point they are missing (AI pilots/unions and everyone) is that the market is going to walk away anyway. If passengers don’t fly AI they fly a foreign carrier. So big deal if Jet or Sahara step in. Presently almost 70% of international bound passengers fly on foreign carriers, so why is AI complaining of domestic competition from 9W?? Let them use the unused bilateral and fly…… it doesn’t hurt AI or IC anymore than if people fly EK or LH!!!
Let private carriers fly abroad….. then fix AI’s problems.
eP007
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:35 pm


Also does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines.

That is a stupid and retrograde idea. But cosnidering the record of the Bharat sarkaar on this, i dont think that would be impossible!!

If the govt,using its infinite wisdom, sees the need for state-owned carriers, then by all means have them. Even go ahead and make it compulsory for Govt employees to travel only on AI/IC, a rule that now remains only on paper.

But atleast ensure that there is a complete level playing field, atleast operationally. Private carriers (and even IC) must have the freedom to operate on routes they deem profitable:domestic or international. The bilaterals are not the property of Air India but of the govt of India and all Indian carriers must have access to them. Govt and privately owned airlines can exist and compete together. What is needed is the mechanism that allows fair competition.

The first step should be to set up a Commercial Regulatory Authority on the lines of TRAI. After all Telecom is the other sector where people made similar arguments about govt owned cos and pvt cos! But today we do have the Govt owned BSNL competing with the private cos like AirTel, Idea and BPL!

Hopefully we will see such a body being setup after Prafull Patel is shown the door sometime next month as expected .

-Roy
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:43 pm

Hopefully we will see such a body being setup after Prafull Patel is shown the door sometime next month as expected .
Is there a change expected in the Aviation Ministry.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mrniji
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:48 pm

yet EK will probably launch multiple A380s to India in a few years.

The question is where they can land.. seeing the present standards of teh airport-dumps in India, I would be surprised if an A380 can be treated properly
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:04 pm

does anyone think that AI or IC will be given first rights refusal on routes before they are offered to the private airlines

AI/IC already have de-facto right of refusal on routes now. If the frequencies are dormant, then they are not using them. Once they open it up to private carriers, it has to be completely open. No preference, no interference, nothing.

the main point they are missing (AI pilots/unions and everyone) is that the market is going to walk away anyway

Actually Nikhil, it is you that is missing the point. AI has absolutely no objection to competition from private airlines. AI actually faces direct competition (defined as 10% elapsed time differential) on ~98% of its ASMs, the only routes without competition being Dar-Es-Salaam and Al-Ain.

Air India's market share of O&D international traffic (FY2003-4 figures) is just above 18%, with another 7% to Indian Airlines, 1% to Jet/Sahara and the remaining 74% to foreign carriers. IC's domestic market share is now in the 41% range, with 44% to Jet Airways, 10% to Sahara, 4% to Air India and 1% to others. Hardly indicative of an airline environment without competition.

However, "competition" only truly exists in an open market. As long as artificially imposed constraints exist via bilateral capacity limits (and that alas is a fact of doing international flying anywhere in the world) there is only a finite sized pie to carve up. Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it. Then everyone can get a slice. Forcing Air India to eat the pie with its hands tied behind its back simply makes a mess of the pie for everyone concerned. In fact, you'll wind up with pie in your face! Liberalize bilaterals first (via open skies agreements such as are in place with the SAARC countries and some ASEAN countries) and then make operating rights available to any qualified airline. But hey, thats the logical way to do it. Better to just get into a frenzy and jump to premature decisions to suit Naresh Goyal's pocket instead.

And finally, before people start getting too excited, let see just where does India have this dormant undesignated bilateral capacity available to that the media keeps crowing about. The answer might surprise you (Source : DGCA).

Afghanistan
Algeria
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Belgium
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
Georgia
Ghana
Greece
Hungary
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Jordan
Korea, North
Kyrghyzstan
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macao
Madagascar
Malta
Mongolia
Morocco
New Zealand
Nigeria
Norway
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Seychelles
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Syria
Tajikistan
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
Yemen
Yugoslavia
Zambia

I'm sure we'll see some Kolkata-Pyongyang nonstops once Jet Airways is given international authority. And the Indian community in Lesotho must be chuffed now that Maseru will be connected to Sahara's "Hub Hyderabad". After all, the media believes that private airlines are the solution to everyone's problems right?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ourboeing
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:20 pm

"The question is where they can land"

Where can they land is a good question. But since this is brought up, have they installed the ILS at Delhi airport yet? This was back in 2001 that I was flying out of New Delhi and the Cathay Pacific flight I was flying was supposed to leave at 1:00AM and the boarding was on time and before we could take off,I fell asleep. I woke up and looked at my watch and we were in the airplane for a good two hours and the person sitting next to me told me that we had not taken off yet. After sitting in the airplane for another hour or so, we were told to deplane. This is funny, we waited hours to the daylight and then another few for the fog to clear up. I met Prannoy Roy while waiting for the flight and there were a few of us talking and someone mentioned that Indian government had bought the ILS eight years ago (1993) and that it had been sitting in the box it came in after all these years. I don't know how much of this is true but if it is, it is pathetic.
Maybe we need to ask Prafull Patel about it Smile

 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:28 pm

I don't know how much of this is true

Apart from the fact that your CX flight was delayed, pretty much none of it is true. But thats typical of the misinformation surrounding Indian aviation that abounds.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
airish
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:40 pm

Did not know that AI was designated for so many other countries that it is currently not flying to. Could the private airlines apply for these rights were AI is the designated carrier and is not using them and get allocated these rights.
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jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:35 am

"Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it."

Give all the Indian carriers the tools to cut it. What makes AI so special?

That includes Aircraft acquisitions on a timely basis for AI and IC, and the opportunity for Jet, Sahara, etc., to actively bid for international routes. Why should Indian aviation be stymied by its Air India-centric policy? Right now, the GOI takes years to give AI anything, and at the same time in a pique of playing dog in the manger, denies Indian private carriers the right to fly overseas. Its the worst case of a government anywhere in the world denying its own citizens the right to jobs.

"After all, the media believes that private airlines are the solution to everyone's problems right?"

I think the media - like the rest of us - believe that allowing private airlines to fly popular routes is the solution. Why should AI alone have Bom-Lhr? Or Bom-BKK?

The Indian privates have shown they can perform, have shaken up the wretched IC from its socialist past, and can deliver a product second to none in the international market. The lackadaisical state of Indian tourism needs flag carriers that can promote India overseas, not serve as added evidence of shoddy Third World malaise. And given India's prime geographical location between East and West, there is no reason that Indian private carriers can't build hubs based on low wage and operational costs. Clearly, AI and IC and the GOI have been asleep while superhubs come up left and right all around India !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ourboeing
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:52 am

B747-437B,

My CX flight was not the only one that was delayed. The whole airport was shut down for departing as well as arriving flights.
Well, here is another one of those moments I would like to share with other here. This time my Air Canada flight from hell (DEL-YYZ) was delayed for 2 hours just because the newly elected prime minister Manmohan Singh was coming back after his first overseas trip. Delhi airport was shut down for other airlines to land so that Manmohan Singh's airplane could land and taxi and also so that pretty much every Indian politician who was at the airport to greet him could kiss his a..
Is that crazy or what??
 
karan69
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:21 am

was delayed for 2 hours just because the newly elected prime minister Manmohan Singh was coming back after his first overseas trip. Delhi airport was shut down for other airlines to land so that Manmohan Singh's airplane could land and taxi and also so that pretty much every Indian

SEE mate,unfortunately like the other DEVELOPED NATIONS we dont have any secondary airports for civil use-In any CITY
And it is customary to shut down any airport catering to a VVIP -especially if he is the PM of the country
Even Mumbai airport was shut down when Bill Clinton came with his AirForce1 for 2 hrs .

I think u probably are unfortunate that these instances have occured with u.

Stiking to the THREAD

As far as liberalisation of skies for international routes go, there wont be any harm done if Indian Carriers who are so well reputed for their service are allowed to fly international, infact just as they made IC pull up their socks and slowly over the years IC has recovered most of his market share,maybe this move will also do good to AI

AND if not-then wats the problem-Already 74% of our market is dominated by foreign carriers.
Atleast this time the share will be going to an Indian CO. that pays taxes
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:38 am

"At least this time the share will be going to an Indian CO. that pays taxes."

My point exactly.
And at least the failures of any private carrier will not be borne by the the overtaxed Indian national, unlike AI or IC that pretty much have carte blanche to dip into the national coffers ad infinitum.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:38 am

The question is where they can land.. seeing the present standards of teh airport-dumps in India, I would be surprised if an A380 can be treated properly

Not one airport in India can accommodate the A380 at present or in the near future. The maximum wingspan any of the bays are capable of accommodating is 65m, roughly equivalent to a B744 at 211ft. The A380 has a wingspan of 261ft 10in. The new BLR airport (assuming that the private financiers have more foresight than the babus at MoCA and AAI) will hopefully be able to accommodate the A380.

rgds//Vimanav
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ourboeing
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:25 am

Karan69,

I promise I will leave this issue alone after this one.

You said:

"I think u probably are unfortunate that these instances have occured with u"

There were thousands of passengers waiting to depart that evening so I guess I was not the only one. And in the winter time during Delhi's infamous fog, thousands of others get stuck at the airport year after year and the government has not done anything about it.

and your other comment:

"unfortunately like the other DEVELOPED NATIONS we dont have any secondary airports for civil use-In any CITY "

Whatever happened to Safderjung (sp??)airport??

I think I will keep quiet now.

OURBOEING
 
Vimanav
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RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:30 am

Whatever happened to Safderjung (sp??)airport??

To be shortly turned into a golf course, shopping complex, zoo, housing complex, God alone knows what else thanks to the rapaciousness of our politicians. I was there even today, just for that old airport sensation... a really peculiar place and makes you sad.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:34 am

""unfortunately like the other DEVELOPED NATIONS we dont have any secondary airports for civil use-In any CITY ""

Change that to:

"unfortunately like DEVELOPED NATIONS we dont have any secondary airports for civil use-In any CITY "

With due respect to the charmed baba-log existence many have in India, its still a far cry from being a developed nation.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:28 am

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully Internation

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:49 am

B747-437B…. Sorry about the confusion.

The point I was trying to make was that in the past the government, GOI, AND national carriers have made a fuss about this issue. This is a quote from an article from rediff.com from an AI executive.
"By allowing private domestic airlines to fly and liberally giving bilateral to foreign carriers without expanding our fleet they are virtually killing the two airlines,"

Even now, AI and IC are still opposed to letting 9W and S2 fly international. I am not saying they are only talking about private airlines, a bulk of their problems come from international carriers. The point is, AI shouldn’t be against the government handing out bilaterals, they should be against their lack of autonomy.
As I said before too an extent it’s unfair to AI and IC since their hands are tied but that is not a reason to bar private carriers from flying abroad. By all means fix AI’s problems, but don’t hold back the private carriers for any one of those mentioned reasons it makes absolutely no sense.……….. That’s what I mean.
eP007
 
karan69
Posts: 2703
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:55 am

Delhi's infamous fog, thousands of others get stuck at the airport year after year and the government has not done anything about it

they did instal some CAT III landing system {i am not too sure about the exact term used} to counter the fog, but unfortunately it was ineffective because the fog was so terrible.
When nature does not want anyone to leave-what do u expect them to do-
maybe anyone else can suggest a better technology to battle the fog.

I already gave u a good enough reason as far as the PM arrival was concerned
and as far as Safderjung airport is concerned Vimanav pretty much gave u an idea of the condition of the airport so no one can expect to handle a B744 over there.
 
sshank
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:58 am

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:34 am

"Rather than hand the pie to someone else to eat because it is too large for Air India to eat in one bite, simply give Air India the tools to cut it."

What is key is what would benefit Indian aviation (and customers) rather than what would suit AI. Ideally you would give AI the resources and the autonomy to compete effectively with the private carriers. But if that is not possible (or too much to expect from GOI) then lets open up anyway. AI may come of badly in the process - so what? Too bad for AI, but the passengers will be better served in any case by the private carriers and that's all matters.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:49 am

"AI may come of badly in the process - so what? Too bad for AI, but the passengers will be better served in any case by the private carriers and that's all matters."

And Indians will have access to new jobs.

Jobs created internally rather than as a result of outsourcing and BPOs, that in spite of GWB's victory are jobs that are subject to political vagaries (the Prez. didn't think twice before he imposed tarriffs on foreign steel for awhile; he could react punitively with respect to off shore jobs as well, if the going got tougher in the US economy).

Unemployment in India is upwards of 35%. An expansionist Jet or Sahara growing at even half the rate of EK could create thousands of well paying jobs for the Indian middle class.

But all one hears from the GOI is petty bickering and its constant group jerk sessions where they yap about ordering new planes for AI/IC and put the brakes on pvt airline expansion.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Indian Pvt Airlines Might Go Fully International

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:16 pm

The "dormant undesignated bilateral capacity" list is all very well in theory. After looking at it, I would conclude that AI and IC have been allocated rights to fly to a number of countries that they're just not using. Leave aside if they can't or they won't. The bottom line is that they're not being utilised, which is actually worse than leaving them undesignated.

Here's a far more attractive list of selected countries AI/IC can fly to but don't (excluded from the DGCA list):
Australia
Canada
Egypt
Israel
Italy
Korea Republic
Mauritius
Netherlands
Russia
South Africa
Switzerland
Turkey

Come to think of it, carriers from how many countries fly to India more often than AI/IC fly to these countries? Pretty-much all of them, except perhaps Indonesia, Japan, Tanzania, America and a couple in the Middle East.

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