Derico
Topic Author
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Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:47 pm

Here's the article  Wow!
http://www.larazon.com.ar/diario_lr/hoy/3-865120.htm"

I'd really like to know what Argentines in particular think about this, I'm still having a hard time believing this will happen. Till now virtually nothing about this has been written here, or anywhere for that matter. Bottom line, if this is really true, I don't like it.

I'll post a thread in the non-aviation forum, if someone wants to make political comments (I'd actually REALLY appreciate if Marambio, LVZXV, Lima, JJ, Argentina, etc have something to say... Is this a "K" idea?). For the purpose of this thread, I'm just wondering how this will affect, if in anyway, civil aviation in Argentina.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Yu138086
Posts: 163
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:53 pm

Probably just another idea buy some government bureaucrat to put $$$ in the pockets of corrupt political officials. In Argentina the story is always the same... It all starts out as a master plan then it gets thrown away/forgotten about and the typical end result is millions of dollars wasted on corrupt officials with no end result/solution.

If it comes true, whats the point? Who is Argentina's enemy? Don't make the slow immigration lines even slower!

Cheers  Smile
 
Derico
Topic Author
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:01 pm

According to the article, they place reasons on the terrorist attacks in the 1990s to Jewish targets in Buenos Aires. That's the enemy. (!!)
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
JohnJ
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:37 pm

On a somewhat related topic, what happened to Brazil fingerprinting US citizens? I went to Rio in September fully expecting the fingerprinting routine upon arrival there, but was surprised to breeze right through customs at GIG with barely a glance at my passport. I assume that practice has ended?
 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:13 pm

Waste....and stupid....

The keep saying in BA that they have other things to worry about rather than offering creditors a decent offer...I guess they needed the extra money to go to stupid schemes like this..one could only drive the 10km from Gral. Paz to Ezeiza to know that the money could be spent more usefully elsewhere. Perhaps fixing a few of the many leaking roofs at schools in Gran BsAs would be a place to start....

I love Argentina but I never will understand it..
War is a very poor political tool
 
lima
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:53 pm

The enemy is not abroad but in Argentina itself and that is called corruption!
 
JOSEMEX
Posts: 1437
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:25 pm

So I guess now Brazil will start fingerprinting Argentinian visitors?
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:56 pm

If the US is doing it whay can't any other country do it as well???

---------
Yu138086:

Corruption? Why don't you use the same argument for the US immigration? Give me a break! Lines slower?? And what about MIA and JFK or EWR. This month I had to go to EWR and the immigration was a pain! I think before making comments about other countries you better look at the immigration situation in the US, which I think is a complete mess - sorry the words.

---------------
Derico:

Are they going to the the fingerprinting/photographs for ALL countries or only US citizens? Anything more specific?

I think this policy by the Argentine Government is in the framewrok of what we call in international law "reciprocity", and this is perfectly understandable.

For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation. It is because of this very "reciprocity" that today Brazil and Argentina achieved the status of countries which dont need VISA for Europe, so it works somehow as a pressure mechanism. Of course, it only works for big countries such as Brazil, Argentina, China, India, South Africa, etc.

Another point: isn't the US State Department stating that there is terrorist group acitvities in the triple border Argentina-Brazil-Paraguay? So now these countries are implementing security measures, right?

Rgs,
Hardi

 
miaskies
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:34 pm

I think it's great, if those are the steps the Argentinian Government needs to take to make their country feel more "Secure" then so be it. It will definetly not stop me from visting there...it is a great place!

As far as long lines....get over it people, we are living in a post 911 world, people need to learn to deal with it and move on.


Saludos...

Ciao!
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
panamair
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:37 am

"For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation"

Actually, US citizens don't need a tourist visa for Argentina.
 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:58 am

"For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries. Since the US requests VISA for both Argentinians and Brazilians, these countries also request US citizens to have a VISA. Is simply a tit-for-tat situation"


As Panamair already mentioned US Citizens do not need Visas for Argentina. Also it is a whole lot easier for Argentines to get visas than Brazilians, but that has nothing to do with your tit-for-tat ideas. It has to do with the fact that there are many Brazilians in the USA illegally and very few illegal Argentines. Uruguayans have an even easier time getting a visa because there are even less illegals from Uruguay...Chile as well.
War is a very poor political tool
 
hardiwv
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

Usatoeze:

Could you please be more specific? Do you have statistics? In absolute number I am sure you will have more illegal Brazilians in the US, simply because the Brazilian population is much numerous than Argentina + Chile + Uruguay together!  Smile

As far as I known Argentines, Brazilians, Uruguayans and Chileans receive the same treatment and ALL need to get VISA for the US!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1838465.stm


I will repeat, the Brazilian Foreign Ministry bases ALL its decisions for VISA in the framework of " reciprocity". That's why Brazilians don't need VISA for Europe and vice-versa. I think this is a fair policy.

Rgs,
Hardi


 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:28 am

First of all you posted an article that is almost 3 years old. Things have changed a great deal since then. That was just after the height of the crisis and 9/11 and almost nobody was getting a visa into and out of the US from Argentina. Things are much much different now in terms of wait times and approval percentages. I can tell you that because I deal with many Argentines getting visas and Feb 2002 was bad for everybody. The article has very little relevance to today.

If I had more than a minute to respond than I would find a few websites to show you that the percentages of Brazilians(As a percentage of total population) estimated to be illegally in the USA is much higher than the percentage of Argentines, Chileans, or Uruguayans living in the USA. The visa waiver program was last canceled for Uruguay, and the biggest reason for the the cancellation of the Visa Waiver program with Lat Am countries is too many illegals and not issues of money or other things as in other countries. Even without reciprocity or if Brazil lightened up on US visitors Brazil would never get a Visa Waiver.

As far as I known Argentines, Brazilians, Uruguayans and Chileans receive the same treatment and ALL need to get VISA for the US!

Well if you dealt with this often as some of us do then you would clearly know that is not the case. Brazilians face much more scrutiny because there are many more illegals(BTW Brazil has only 5 to 6 times the population of Argentina and more than 10 times the illegals...give me a few days to find you the estimates).

and BTW US immigration is not Corrupt...it is slow and unorganized and has many problems. Do you know what corrupt means?
War is a very poor political tool
 
hardiwv
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:36 am

Usatoeze:

I never said US immigration was corrupt. Just that someone on the forum called Argentina a corrupt country and I found it unfair.

I will repeat the post here (Reply: 1) above:

"Probably just another idea buy some government bureaucrat to put $$$ in the pockets of corrupt political officials. In Argentina the story is always the same... It all starts out as a master plan then it gets thrown away/forgotten about and the typical end result is millions of dollars wasted on corrupt officials with no end result/solution"

Again, the situation changed in Argentina, after the crisis, as it changed in Brazil!

There are illegal LatAm in the US in general, and please dont try to make the Brazilians look as the " bad boy" ....There are Brazilians illegal the same was as they are Argentinians, etc.

Yet again, Argentinians and Brazilian both NEED TO APPLY FOR VISA TO ENTER THE US. The Procedure is exactly the same and the waiting time the SAME!

I will not keep on discussing this issue, because next you will tell me that Argentina is better than Brazil in soccer  Smile (although Brazil won the World Cup and Americas Cup!)






[Edited 2004-11-10 17:38:40]
 
usatoeze
Posts: 348
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:37 am

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Ill_Report_1211.pdf

This is the best link I can find on short notice. Im not trying to start an Argentina vs Brazil contest..im just saying that there is a clear difference in visa acceptance rates as well as a clear difference in the number and increase of illegal immigrants to the USA between Argentina and Brazil. Argentina and Uruguay once did well enough to qualify for the Visa Waiver program, which is something that Brazil has not done. Yes it has gotten worse in all countries, and yes the written policies and regulations are the same. The time it takes to process a visa and the costs are the same, but the approval rates are better in Argentina. You can argue with me all day if you want, and you can quote many articles...but even in the past few years when things have changed so much in these countries it is still harder for a person in Brazil to get a visa compared with Argentines and especially Uruguayans.
It is a sad thing that all of these countries were discussing cant be on the Visa Waiver and save us all headaches.
War is a very poor political tool
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:46 am

Interesting that the data you found is from 1990 to 2000...

"it is still harder for a person in Brazil to get a visa compared with Argentines and especially Uruguayans."

I disagree with you. The procedure and waiting time is exactly the SAME. The same way you have a higher number of Brazilians illegally in the US, you also have a higher number of Brazilians legally in the US...all is relative...

This is my last post on this subject....





 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:06 am

Que va!

You waste enough time at immigration as it is without the introduction of a new gimmick whose origins are I'm sure that peanut inside Kirchner's head that he thinks passes for a brain.

Seriously, if he's using the Isreali Embassy and AMIA bombings as an excuse, shame on him. Remember when K recently announced the discovery of dozens of tape recording that could supposedly shed light on who was behind the latter bombing. Within a day, his aides were backtracking, claiming K had been misunderstood, and when that failed, government officials said it was all big mistake, forgetting to mention the buffoon who made it.

The whole investigation is a farce, for one thing, and as for the "Hizbollah cells" up in the Triple Frontera, lest we forget how Menem dealt with them. In 1998, in order to win favour from Clinton, Menem turned-in a number of suspected terrorists and drug-traffickers to the CIA, when in fact, some of them may well have helped Menem come to power a decade earlier. A classic story of betrayal? Quite possibly.

On the other hand, I see this photo and fingerprinting policy as tit-for-tat, but the exercise is pointless because:

1. North American and European tourists are flooding Argentina with much needed foreign capital.
2. IF this is some form of protest against the CAT II restrictions affecting Argentine airlines, it is too little too late.
3. It will dissuade airlines from flying to EZE, especially those who are in the process of resuming services suspended during the crisis (DL) or those upping their weekly frequencies (BA).

If this is some sort of counter-terrorist stunt, the joke is on K. Any existing terrorists are already in Argentina, or more probably, basking in anonymity in Ciudad del Este, Paraguay.

I find this very hard to take seriously, and if the new law does come into force, let's just hope it is permeable and flexible as all other existing laws in Argentina, for the sake of all us.

With Castells out of his Chaco prison, summer approaching fast, the prospect of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner becoming Governess of Buenos Aires province, and 3 years left for the penguin, I honestly worry more than ever for Argentina's health and sanity. As my great-grandad said 40 years ago, somos locos de verano.

When will someone do us a favour and shoot the penguin?

Saludos a todos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Marambio
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:57 am

Good afternoon gentlemen,

Very interesting topic, Derico. It's been months since a poster at EZE says "The National Migrations Department is developing a new programme, aiming at making faster your migration proceedings." I was really interested on knowing what this was about.

Basically this program is an upgrade of the old forms you were given before landing at any Argentine airport. These forms always end up at an archive, where they obviously cannot be properly processed. I believe it will be an advantage for both passengers (passport control will be shorter) and Government (this new program will reduce costs).

This said, the new proceedings will take place for both Argentine nationals and foreigners. So don't start with the hate-US thingy, because it isn't targeting Americans only.

Finally, the fingerprints won't be made with ink but digitally. I know no fingerprint is better, but still this is way more than acceptable. Here in Argentina we're also fingertiped when we renew any of our national IDs (DNI, Cédula or Passport). So this is no news for us.

I know this can be misunderstood by foreigners, since in other countries, e.g. Germany, this is done to suspects only. But come on, how long does it take to put your finger in a touchscreen and smile to a camera?

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:30 am

Marambio:

Wherever there is potential for efficiency in Argentina, there is just as much potential for chaos and disaster. Just picture the beautiful new system in a "3 flights arriving at once scenario"...seconds count!

Guess it won't make much difference which passport I use in future...

Saludos,

ZXV



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Marambio
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:29 am

Hola XV,

Wherever there is potential for efficiency in Argentina, there is just as much potential for chaos and disaster. Just picture the beautiful new system in a "3 flights arriving at once scenario"...seconds count!

I understand what you mean, but according to you it's better to no hacer nada and let everything like it is now. We can always close down all our international airports, and eliminate lots of dangers and problems!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The so famous "3-at-once" scenario I don't know why you guys always mention it. I fly to/from Europe every three months, and I always land at EZE with two other European biggies. I agree passport control is never done in a breeze, but still it's not that bad. Most of the time between landing and leaving the airport takes me about half an hour. I believe it's about the same everywhere else in the world. Last time it took me longer to do migrations at FRA (with German passport) than at EZE (with Argentine passport).

This said, I also believe the new customs system, with the X-Ray machines, was a big improvement. No todo es malo en la Argentina.

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see how this works!

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:24 am

For example, an Argentinian or Brazilian does not need tourist VISA for Europe, therefore, an European does not need a tourist VISA for these countries

Americans don't need VISA for Chile, but recalling reciprocity, they are demanded to pay US$100 when they arrive in Chile (valid for the whole passport period, regardless the number of entries).

As for the immigration, Chile has one the lowerest rate of rejected applications for US VISA in the region, so the arguments above are valid despite the differences of population.


In a related subject, since Chile is hosting next week the APEC CEO summit, including "celebrities" as Bush and Putin together, SCL has very severe security measures, starting some months ago. They do photograph you and you pass though very extra controls you don't even know. The same for freight and luggage.

Cheers )( Arcano

in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:01 pm

Hola a todos,

I was not able to open the link to La Razon. However, I'm not sure wether its such a bad idea ... or a good one for that matter. My point is that I'm not sure it will make going through customs that much slower, or at least, it will still be faster than in the US. In any case, is it possibe that the extra screening will be applied because of foreign advice (FAA)? Again, i wa snot able to read the article so maybe this has already been answered. By the way, will this be applied to everyone arriving at EZE (including Argentos)?

saludos

ps:ZXV, que tal va todo por aca? hasta cuandot e quedas?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-

Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:31 pm

Sooner or later we'll see if it was a good idea or not...

EZEIZA:

Todo barbaro! Vine por un casamiento pero lamentablemente vuelvo a Londres el viernes (con IB!), pero vengo de vuelta el 16 diciembre...

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:26 am

Todo barbaro! Vine por un casamiento pero lamentablemente vuelvo a Londres el viernes (con IB!), pero vengo de vuelta el 16 diciembre...

Hey! How was your Iberia experience?  Wink/being sarcastic

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Derico
Topic Author
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

!

Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:10 am

The problem with the link is that after a day or two, it's archived under a new link. This one should work for good:

http://old.larazon.com/diario_lr/2004/11/08/3-865120.htm

Like Marambio said, this *would* apply to all foreigners, not just Americans for those who were asking. And guess what? Argentines too! So I have to agree in the opinion that this is not a tit-for-tat with the US.

If it really was about US immigration policy, Argentina would have pulled a 'Brazil' about 2 years ago. For once I was very proud of the Argentine government not reciprocating a silly policy. By this I'm not saying countries don't have the right to do fingerprints/etc, I just think it's a bit over the top. And again in Argentina's case, everyone would have to do this, not just a particular nationality. I just really hate the government keeping records of you, and the paranoia of the process. I trust the US government about the same as I do ARG's government: not at all.

Not all may be bad in Argentina, but LVZXV is right in saying that something that in theory should speed up things at the immigration lines might do the exact opposite in a country such as ARG. I don't share LVZXV's negative view of Argentina, but his concerns are valid.

I just think that the timing is a little bad, since 100% of people visiting Argentina are curious, well-intentioned tourists. Oh well. I hope tourists don't feel singled out as they will see the natives going through it too!!

Arcano,

Mar del Plata will have the VERY dubious honor of 'W', 'K', 'Lula', Fox, Lagos, and the rest of the gang next year paying a visit. I feel sorry for them... (about the only good thing to come out of that will be the remodeling of MDQ)
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:44 pm

Hola Marambio:

My Iberian experience? See Replies # 133 & 140 in this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1806656/4/

In a few hours time, I'm returning aboard IB 6840. Let's see if IB can make a difference...

Saludos,

ZXV

P.S. To you and Derico: What I write about Argentina in these forums is strictly written in a critical tone. I am very much in love with Argentina and always have been, but, like most Argentines, I am concerned about this country's future the way things are going (especially in aviation) and I think you'll find I have every reason to be dismissive of those hot-air merchants who claim that they will cure Argentina's cancers overnight. If this new system works, brilliant, but I'm not going to be caught by surprise if it proves to be a total waste of time, money and paper...

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Yu138086
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:32 am

How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when 2-3 long haul jets arrive from overseas. Looks very bad on you EZE! I can't believe that in 2004, in a major world capital, an arrivals level can look like this. It's simple neglect/indifference by your politicians for not forcing Aeropuertos 2000 (or whatever the name of the private company is) to make the necessary changes.

One other observance.... Have any of you seen the "class divide" between the Aerolineas departures gates and the Foreign Airlines' departures gates. As an Argentine, I would be very upset at this difference.
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:12 am

I do not know what the fuzz is all about, I find it great that Argentinians are modernizing their inmigration process, anyhow that will become the future world wide. In BOG they are in a trial process also, the idea will also be to fingerprint and photograph everybody that goes through the airport, and for us Colombians once you have been scanned once you will not need to show your passport at the inmigration desk. Just put your finger on the scanner and walk right through. It is becomming the norm, in Colombia some banks are now doing away with cards at the ATM, also using fingerprint technology.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:29 am

How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when 2-3 long haul jets arrive from overseas. Looks very bad on you EZE! I can't believe that in 2004, in a major world capital, an arrivals level can look like this. It's simple neglect/indifference by your politicians for not forcing Aeropuertos 2000 (or whatever the name of the private company is) to make the necessary changes.

First of all, I don't see why you are almost insulting us because of EZE's arrivals area!

The airport, like most airstations in Argentina, is been operated by Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, a private holding owned by Eduardo Eurnekián (former owner of MJ) and MXP's operators, an Italian group whose name I don't remember.

In 2001, AA2000 built a new departure's level in the so-called Terminal A, which is where all airlines but AR leave from.

If you knew something about Argentine recent history, you'd know that in 2001/2002 Argentina suffered the worst economy crisis on its 188-year history -- our national currency, the peso, devaluated about 300%, we had 5 Presidents in 2 weeks, and the list goes on...

Nevertheless, AA2000 still inaugurated new terminals in Bariloche, Puerto Iguazú, Mendoza, Buenos Aires (Aeroparque) and just a few weeks ago in Río Gallegos.

I'm not a big AA2000 fan, and I'm really pissed off everytime I have to pay my 18-dollar airport tax at EZE, but they have been doing a respectable job. I believe we'll have to wait a while, maybe some 3 to 5 years, to see the new Ezeiza as they advertise it.

One other observance.... Have any of you seen the "class divide" between the Aerolineas departures gates and the Foreign Airlines' departures gates. As an Argentine, I would be very upset at this difference.

Why would I be very upset? Lots of airlines have their own terminal at their hubs. AR does at EZE. I know that terminal is old, but last time I've been there it wasn't that bad. And for your information, Terminal B (as AR's terminal is known) is also included in EZE's remodelation masterplan.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Derico
Topic Author
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:32 am

ZXV,

You don't have to explain anything to me. I know that when you point out those gaucho foibles that seem impossible to shake off, you do it because you care. That's why you are on my respected list after all  Wink/being sarcastic

(what I meant to say in a broader sense is that I think Argentina will do reasonably well IN SPITE of K, and like I've mentioned in the past Lavagna has done a good job of at least not doing anything economically stupid, which is up to this point all you can ask of the guy)

Yu138086,

It's funny what you are saying because you are not the first one to point this out (about the terminal). Funny from the point of view that this is a case where visitors (foreigners) such as yourself are asking for the government to mandate that a private corporation, AA2000, do something forcibly.

But when the government has done so with other corporations (mostly foreign), foreigners say that is a typical anti-business, private enterprise tactic! In a way, the Argentine government is so mistrusted by all that whatever they do is a damn if you do AND if you don't scenario.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:33 pm

How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when 2-3 long haul jets arrive from overseas. Looks very bad on you EZE! I can't believe that in 2004, in a major world capital, an arrivals level can look like this. It's simple neglect/indifference by your politicians for not forcing Aeropuertos 2000 (or whatever the name of the private company is) to make the necessary changes.

I was in EZE back in 2002. I don't remember it to be so bad as you describe. The departure hall was nice but I don't remember the arrivals to be neither remarkable nor really bad. I mean bigger signs for the buses downtown would help, but that's just a detail.

I can't believe that in 2004, in a major world capital, an arrivals level can look like this.

Don't see a reason to throw insults like this. As far as I remember IAD or LAX are no state-of-the-art airports either and evening rush hour turns baggage claim at LAX into a madhouse. Would you blame Dumbya for that?
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:06 pm

"How about spending the necessary dollars to fix/upgrade your shabby Arrivals level first so your visitors dont have to stand up top the escalator when 2-3 long haul jets arrive from overseas. Looks very bad on you EZE! I can't believe that in 2004, in a major world capital, an arrivals level can look like this. It's simple neglect/indifference by your politicians for not forcing Aeropuertos 2000 (or whatever the name of the private company is) to make the necessary changes."

With all due respect, I think you are exagerating. The arrival at EZE is not the best in the world, granted, but its by far not the worst. And as Marambio pointed out, we are recovering from the worst economic crisis in history and eventually arrivals will be upgraded. Oh, and by the way, I'm not sure our politicians can force AA2000 to make the necessary changes, and in any case, I'd prefer our politicians to not be involved in it.

saludos
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:29 pm

Hola Derico:

I'm sorry for having not added you to my R/U list sooner! And thank you for bringing up Lavagna; everytime I think of Argentine politics I somehow overlook this unsung hero sort of figure who you are right to say hasn't really messed anything up (yet!). Plus, since he shares my birthday, he can't be all bad!  Smile

If you knew something about Argentine recent history, you'd know that in 2001/2002 Argentina suffered the worst economy crisis on its 188-year history -- our national currency, the peso, devaluated about 300%, we had 5 Presidents in 2 weeks, and the list goes on...

Nuff said. I was there, and anyone with any memory of that awful fortnight (and the months that followed) is grateful that not only did EZE survive, but so too did AR. You can't expect too much considering less than 3 years have passed since the devaluation, and I agree, EZE is just an airport and not a bad one at that, compared to the likes of GRU, LIM, MAD, ORY and plenty of others...

I just passed through EZE yesterday (EZE-MAD-LHR) and I experienced no problems, as usual. Barajas, unsurprisingly (esp. security), was the real headache, but after the guilt trip I sent Iberia on last time, they very kindly ensured that one of these brought me back to Europe...


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Photo © BAIRES Aviation Photography



Ole!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Saludos desde Londres, donde el sol brilla por una vez!

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
hardiwv
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Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:03 pm

ZXV,

Good to see you are back! We all missed your comments on LatAm aviation.

Certainly you know that one of the best skills of the LatAm economies is to go through crisis, survive and thrive again. Argentina's economy is picking up, with +7% GDP growth, and the aviation industry is feeling the impact, with increased traffic towards EZE and beyond, since there is a strong correlation betwen GDP growth and aviation traffic.

Also nice to hear that your return trip with IB was a success. About MAD, it is really difficult to point out any airport that you wouldn't go through without hassle nowadays, and I personally think that there are worse cases: LHR, CDG, FRA to start with. Of the major airport, probably AMS is an exception.

Tks for bringing a bit of the sunshine to us, although in AMS is rather cloudy, as usual!

Rgs,
Hardi
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:47 am

Hardi:

I was pretty frantic in BA as I was there only 6 days!

With regards to Argentina's GDP, well compare and contrast their 10.6% contraction in 2002 to their 8.7% surge in 2003. It is a uniquely Argentine skill, linked, in my opinion, with the nation's sudden bouts of euphoria and depression, which in psycho-babble is I think termed "manic depression". Now, to live with, it's great if you're an artist (or of that leaning), but it's disastrous if your involved in business or finance, where you need some constancy. Money comes and goes like the tide, in Buenos Aires at least, and though that adds more dimensions to everyday life and kills any sense of tede like you have in Europe, it can prove a real headache, and I think it is this that leaves a lot of Argentines so "sincerely insincere" about the promises or announcements they make, as they simply haven't the means to back up what they say half the time.

I too am happy that IB provided some decent service at last, and to my surprise, the A340-600 grew on me as soon as I boarded, perhaps because it left Toulouse barely a year ago! I was impressed by both the gentleness and the relative silence of those Trents, and how the plane withstood turbulence--a real lady! I wish my debut flight on the stretched A340 had been with AR, who should have received their first two (of six) this year, but for obvious reasons, but fate had other plans!

Airports? I agree, most are awful, but in all of Western Europe, I think London (LCY, LGW, LHR, STN) has the most hassle-free airports for a capital city. My two qualms with Schiphol are its colossal size (esp. for connecting) and the last minute drugs tests at (some?) departure gates. As for Argentine airports, if you know "what buttons to press", they can be very straightforward: if anyone starts asking stupid questions, return questions they cannot answer (like "why are you asking them?") and they'll usually lose interest and let you through.

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
hardiwv
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Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:05 am

"Airports? I agree, most are awful, but in all of Western Europe, I think London (LCY, LGW, LHR, STN) has the most hassle-free airports for a capital city"

LCY is my favourite airport in Europe! It's well run, cosy, functional, and you can check-in just about 30 min before your flights leaves! I have friends who live in London and they always try to combine their intercontinental flights departing from LCY, e.g. LCY-AMS-GRU, or LCY-FRA-EZE. AF and LX also operate there. Also, since most a/c operating in LCY are smaller, your in-flight service tends to be better - well, I personally enjoy flying in small regional planes. KL uses the F50 to LCY, if I'm not mistaken. Actually I will be flying KL LCY next Monday!

I understand your disappointments with the "stop-and-go" workings of the LatAm economies. But don't think that Argentina is the single case, Brazil, at least, is the same!

Rgs,
Hardi
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:47 am

I understand your disappointments with the "stop-and-go" workings of the LatAm economies. But don't think that Argentina is the single case, Brazil, at least, is the same!

There's one serious difference, Hardi. Brazil is rapidly becoming the dominant power in Latin America, and especially in the aviation sector, is gaining worldwide respect, courtesy of EMBRAER. If that were not enough, it has a fully-functioning and excellent LCC in the form of GOL, successfully modelled on Southwest, which is forcing the full-fare airlines to either compete or go under, as VASP is learning the hard way. Argentine aviation is a mess because it is a sector where the government shows unimaginable levels of incompetence, stifling progress with petty obstructionist regulations which ensure that competition and transparency remain as non-existent as possible.

While in many ways I consider Brazil light-years behind Argentina (education, poverty etc.), Brazil also has five times as many mouths to feed. Argentina strikes me, and many others, as retrograde, and its Argentina's regressionary tendencies that worry me far more than the recent surge in poverty and crime, as we are talking structural (i.e. institutional, cultural) problems here, which are always the harder to tackle.

It's the notion that Argentina could have avoided its current mess far more easily than say Brazil, but for a few idiots in power who milked the system for all its worth and sent the country to hell, that has not only stung but also traumatised the country. Macrocosmic of VARIG, perhaps, and the Rubem Berta Foundation, like you said. Waste, waste, waste--wasted potential, wasted resources, wasted opportunities, and money wasted. It's not so much tragic as sickening, because Argentina has all the recipes for success and stubbornly refuses to exploit them, for whatever ingenious reasons some good-for-nothing crooks wear on their sleeves. With such attitudes, we have the country we richly deserve, with all its pro's and con's. In time, I hope, the pro's will heavily outweigh the con's, and not inverse.

I'm young, I've lived abroad, I've travelled, I'm one of a lucky few in Argentina who are not too seriously affected by the crisis and its consequences. However, I have never turned my back on Argentina, when I could have just embraced the First World and consigned my roots to the past, and I've never lost faith that one day Argentina will "get it right", somehow. Hopefully there will come a point where Argentines can say "enough is enough" and provide viable and constructive solutions (not the sort your average porteño suggests like "kill them all" or "may they go to hell") to their problems--every man-made problem has a solution. But so long as the current mood of indifference and mediocrity persists, little will genuinely improve, of that you can be sure--where there's no will there's no way.

UNLESS...the consensus is that Argentines no longer care much about abroad, planes, money, about material things in general, and are seeking more basic lives emphasising the importance of friendships, relationships and family, the basic human ties that pre-exist all our inventions, in the quest for a happiness immune to future economic fluctuations; happiness in its purest form. Who knows?...

Sorry, it had been a while since once of my "rants" on Argentina; don't take it literally if you don't want to!

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Topic Author
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:08 am

That post blew me away, what a way with words my GOD!!

As a little comment on the side, I have decided (well, decided a couple of years ago), to not ever harp back again to the supposed 'glorious' days of the past (and notice how I have not done so here even given the multiple opportunities). I think if everyone in Argentina did this, a huge boulder would be lifted from our collective shoulders. Enough about the past (good AND bad, i.e being concerned about what the remaining geezers from the juntas are having for breakfast today). Enough!!

Now, I think AR will make it if it is managed reasonably well. I'm not talking about brilliant, six-sigma management skills here, just prudent oversight, and not get caught up in the euphoria of the moment and eat more than you can swallow. As much as I would like to see AR in LAX, ATH, LHR, PEK, etc, I'm glad they are not overgrowing all over the place.

In a perverted way, CATII downgrade may have helped Argentina's aviation by stunting AR's expansion plans for a bit! (how ironic!)

But, even if AR were to go down by 2010, I don't think Argentina as a country will be left without any local carriers. Argentina does not have 120 million people like Mexico or 190 million like Brazil, but it's big enough to sustain domestic carriers, even if they are not prominent international players. I'm not concerned at all that ARG will have no local airlines in any period of the future.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Marambio
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:24 am

Hola XV,

First of all, thanks for some good laughs I had while reading your posts. I guess that's another Argentine thing -- we love laughing at ourselves!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I believe no other country in the world could have survived a crisis like the one we had in 2001/2002, not to mention airlines. I was here on December 20th, as I've been here always since I was born. I am also one of the very few Argentines whose life isn't completely related to Argentina's economy, since my mother lives abroad, and my family is spread all over the globe, from Hawaii to Australia. However, I consider myself 100% argento and love this country. After the crisis, words like "solidarity" have spread all over Argentina and, in my humble opinion, this is more important than airlines and airports.

Of course we are not a developped country like Switzerland, and we're far behind some countries our size, but we are also more advanced than lots of other nations, neighboring or not. Lots of work has to be done, but this isn't K and Julito de Vido's task only (thank God). This job has to be done by every single person that lives here or feels attracted by Argentina, whether he/she is Argentine, it doesn't matter. Any help is very appreciated.

We are afloat again. If we want our country to be what it used to be (who hasn't heard an Argentinian saying "we were the world's 5th richest country in the 1920s"), we'll have to work really hard. I believe we finally realized that, we are capable to do it, and the majority of us want to do it. It's just a matter of time.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:34 am

Gracias Derico y Marambio!

I totally agree with your comments about the past, Derico, but many Argentines (well, not us in the forum so much) are quite a nostalgic bunch who face the future with their eyes glued to their rear-view mirrors, as though their windscreens had been blacked-out. What follows is barely surprising...

Argentines certainly have it in them do succeed. Many have--in sports, film, literature, medicine etc.--but even on a humbler scale, you have the Argentines who kept a few of AR's planes flying in January 2002, or those who keep CATA and LADE flying on a shoestring; Argentines have a remarkable capacity to improvise and adapt to circumstance.

However, as I implied, this ability to "live well for less" may have curbed our ambitions, as a people and as a country, which can be interpreted as a good or a bad thing, as I concluded in my previous post. The crisis was certainly a reality check for most Argentines, especially those who thought it was totally normal to be living like Europeans/North Americans during the "glorious '90s". As a wise oriental man once said, crisis and opportunity lie in the same ideogram--some Argentines realise this but those worst affected obviously cannot.

Marambio, you know I think that is something I feel the Argentines and the British: their ability to laugh at themselves! Self-deprecating though it may be, I think it's a far healthier form of patriotism than that of the US or even Chile, as it's all about laughing about reality but in a loving way!

In my case, my mother and all nearly all my relations live in BA, my two siblings in the US, and my father in London, which has always allowed me to view Argentina and Britain in a conciliatory light, a privilege few Argentines enjoy. I am 110% Argentine but I will never forget my Basque and German roots as they have always been quite pronounced in my character and I'm proud of them.

Solidarity is a new phenomenon in Argentina, but having seen for myself ever since 2002, it was crucial in allowing for the recovery we have seen. And, upside down and at the end of the civilised world, there is no better place to form a strong and lasting friendship, as Borges once wrote. What the world thinks of Argentina shouldn't matter too much to us; we are a largely affable, fun-loving, generous and acceptable bunch in a world where many are not--so what if we're a bit eccentric?...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1109
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:40 pm

LVZXV,

As usual, another pair of your entertaining, well-written posts always puts me in a good mood. I COMPLETELY agree with your analysis regarding the need for a home-grown, consensus-based solution to Argentina's social, economic and political difficulties. I have NO DOUBT the skill, hard work and creativity of the Argentine people will see them through these times and create conditions for sustainable economic growth and improved social welfare.

I absolutely love Argentina and believe its people are incredibly resourceful and intelligent. Argentina (and Uruguay) have suffered through their worst economic crises in over 100 years and, despite all their difficulties, have not fallen into a bottomless abyss of social chaos. Do I like 'K the penguin' and his new sidekick across the River Plate, Tabaré Vazquez? Of course not, they're both complete bozos and have shamelessly exploited current conditions to achieve their political standing. Nonetheless they have a popular mandate and are derive their political power from their nations' democratic institutions (unlike that other freak in Caracas, Chavez), not violence or totalitarianism.

Argentina is not perfect; the nation has a complex past. The challenge is for its people to recognize their unique worth and reach for their dreams. NO politician can ever take that away...
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:18 pm

Pdpsol:

Argentina is not perfect; the nation has a complex past. The challenge is for its people to recognize their unique worth and reach for their dreams. NO politician can ever take that away...

Very true! But you know something, half the trouble is that for those Argentines who've never visited neighbouring South American countries, they fail to realise how good we still have it by comparison. Last year I did Brazil-Paraguay-Bolivia-Peru-Bolivia-Argentina, and when I entered Argentina after 5 weeks of travelling (escaping the unrest in Bolivia that prompted "Goni" Sanchez de Lozada's resignation), Salta seriously felt like the First World (not to mention Buenos Aires...). Furthermore, you cannot fail to notice how outside of Buenos Aires, Argentines have a much clearer and simpler sense of identity and therefore a good deal of pride, which has clearly helped provinces like Cordoba, Mendoza and Salta during hard times.

A constant in Argentine history has been the confused identity of Buenos Aires, which, as the political and demographic centre of Argentina has sent severe repercussions around the country for decades. As the saying goes, how does a porteño/a stand to make a small fortune?

Ans: By selling what they are worth for what they think they are worth.

It's ironic how Buenos Aires, dynamic though it seems, actually prevents real change (and autonomy) in the rest of the country, not least since the Peronist caudillo-like provincial governors will always pander to the wants of Buenos Aires (at the expense of the provinces) self-perpetuating an overly centralised system. That may be how we are, but unfortunately, porteño dominance does breed resentment, which on a national scale is already reaching toxic levels.

Like you said though, at least institutional violence and totalitarianism are a thing of the past, which considering Argentina's history, I think warrants cracking open a bottle of Quilmes, don't you?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Saludos,

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
matt777
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 8:55 am

RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:00 pm

"If you knew something about Argentine recent history, you'd know that in 2001/2002 Argentina suffered the worst economy crisis on its 188-year history -- our national currency, the peso, devaluated about 300%, we had 5 Presidents in 2 weeks, and the list goes on"

True. But we had 1 president in the 1989-1999 period, the economy grew like China 7-8%p.a. Achieved levels of income like South Korea and unemployment levels like Spain. Poverty was at its lowest, 25%, from 55% in late-80s. External Public debt was lower than France,Italy, Germany, with a 44%debt/gdp.

This was not a dream, it was reality.

As regards aviation, the sector was deregularized, including the privatisation of Aerolineas Argentinas/Austral. New carriers entered the market, leading to extensive competition and lower prices. LAPA, SouthernWinds, Dinar... Today we have AR with 90% of the market, just like in 1989.
 
matt777
Posts: 476
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:01 pm

Argentina should compare itself with Australia, not with Bolivia, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay etc.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:36 pm

Hi everyone,
I'm happy to see that all Argentos are agreeing on everything posted here. That doesn't happen too often in the streets fo our cities, right? I have no idea how the future will be for this country. On the one hand I am optimistic because after the kilombo of 2001 it really felt that the population finally had enough and really got together for a common cause ("que se vayan todos") because the majority of people saw that Argentina tocó fondo (how would you say that in english?). On the other hand I'm not sure how optimistic we can be when only after 3 years you can again see that people are again divided, meaning that everyone is moved by their own interests and personal benefits. Look at the piqueteros for example. It began like a valid form of protest for people that were literally starving. What is the piquetero movement now? It's a bunch of people that get paid 150 pesos for closing down some streets and in many cases don't even know why they are protesting. A couple of months ago they had a piquete in support of Chavez (??). Is that a reason for closing down microcentro? Porfavor! Que se yo amigos, let's hope that everyone has learned from their mistakes of the past and that this time we will have a prosperous future wothout any mega crisis every 10 years. I am a person that has been all over the world but that has decided to live in Argentina. In spite of what it seems I am not even Argentine! I am Italian and in fact had never even been in Argentina until 1992, but I love this country and I am planning to stay here for the rest of my life. I hope that time will tell me that I made the right decision.
Bueno, it seems that the thread has gone way out of its original post, but I felt I had to say something about this, although I am aware that my post is not even remotly as entretaining as ZXV's! Big grin

Saludos a todos

ps: ZXV, me alegro que hayas tenido buena experiencia en IB. Were you in biz class?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:38 am

Matt777:

I'm not sure how strong a connection you have with Argentina, but the points you make about Menem are not entirely true.

First, although the "Convertibility" (backing every Peso with a US Dollar) was a good way to tackle the hyperinflation of 1989-91, it shouldn't have lasted as long as it did. The Peso became overvalued from about 1996; it was not worth the same as a US Dollar by the turn of the century. The reality was that yes, Argentines were earning dollars and saving them, but through a mixture of corporate theft and the fact that the money was mostly "virtual", there came a point when the banking system realised all this money didn't exist. Again, a few million dollars were shipped out the country in the days before the chaos errupted, but the reason that the banking system froze was simply because one, people began to panic and withdraw money simultaneously (Argentines were still quite unfamiliar with credit cards, remember), and two, it dawned on them that the money was a dream, not reality. From when the Peso became overvalued (no exact date for this), and when Argentines continued to withdraw and spend thousands upon thousands of Dollars, they were effectively bleeding the system and the country dry.

Talk to any Argentine banker, and they will tell you that at least the latter half of the '90s was a total myth. Yes, people had dollars and were holidaying like and with Europeans and North Americans in the Caribbean, but look beyond that. It was all an illusion, for which everyone paid dearly.
Also, many millions of dollars left the country during the '90s, in keeping with the wealthy Argentine's tradition of keeping their money in Swiss banks.

What I'm telling you isn't axiomatic, and there are no axioms regarding Argentina and its economic crisis. I'm just trying to point out that in spite of Argentina's impressive economic performance during the '90s, the numbers became increasingly detached from reality (few people knew this, others were in denial), and the economic growth was unsustainable (as it was, GDP only went up during 1992-4 and 1996-7; 1989-91 was chaotic, 1995 saw a dip and 1998-2002 were all negative years).

2001-2 was the reality check, and proof that for whatever appearances suggest, Argentina is and always has been in a different kettle of fish to Australia and Canada; the only time these three countries looked as if they might share similar futures (and indeed, Argentina was wealthier than both at one stage) was when Argentina was practically an economic colony of the Bank of England. British investments in Argentina in 1930 amounted to £404 million (unadjusted), against just £200 million in Brazil, for example. However, when the British were sent packing (quite literally) by Juan Domingo Peron* from 1948, Argentina was left to its own devices, and maybe given its Latin nature, it just went a different way to its Anglo-Saxon counterparts, culturally for better perhaps but economically for worse. Asi es!

Maybe the lesson for Argentina, as has been said or hinted at already, is that they shouldn't try to emmulate anyone--not Australia, not Bolivia and certainly not the US. It's the only chance Argentina has at regaining any semblance of respect from the world, as it did over a century ago when it stood up to the US and refused to be a part of the sinister "Monroe Doctrine". A bit of "my way or the highway" might do us some good, as we are notoriously idiosyncratic and hopeless at complying with foreign demands. Argentina is pregnant with personality and there is no reason for us to be ashamed about it.

*To me this was a pyrrhic victory, since like the tyrant Juan Manuel de Rosas a century before, Peron vaingloriously boasted that "hemos hechado a los ingleses" (we've kicked the English out), but he ham-fistedly bungled attempts at nationalisation, and within 6 months, the railways, tramways, and utilities were in disarray; take a train in Argentina today and you'll see how nothing has changed. Hay que ser boludo...

Ciao,

ZXV

P.S. Several Italians have told me the same thing in different ways: "In blaming others, you Argentines are Italians to the square power!" Is there a country more Italian than Argentina outside of Italy?  Wink/being sarcastic

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Derico
Topic Author
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:07 pm

It's true the peso was overvalued by 97 at the .98 = 1 dollar official rate, but neither Menem nor any polititian would dare touch it. People (not just Argentines, but people in general), don't undertand the esotherics of currency valuation and the like. This is why an orderly currency devaluation is almost unheard of. Britain, regarded as a very organized, rational society, had quite a clumsy currency crisis back in 92 with the assistance of, surprise surprise, George Soros.

The one thing I really don't like about this government's economic policy is that they are keeping the peso purposely undervalued. It should be trading at 2.70 and not 2.95. A strong currency is good in the long run for confidence and wages, and forces companies to stay competitive and not simply rest and do nothing thanks to an over-generous exchange rate.

Furthermore, it really puts a dose of general anesthesia in the business of acquiring commercial aviation aircraft, which is what we all here want afterall!
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:01 am

EZEIZA:

toco fondo=touched base

I'm as surprised as you are over the level of agreement among us "Argentos"; we tend to agree to disagree, like you say, on the streets of BA!

You hit the nail on the head with the hammer in your analysis of Argentina post-2001, from the national mood to the piquetero movement. And believe me, I don't think you are strange in wanting to live in Buenos Aires; neither London nor New York have ever attracted me in quite the same way. I see Buenos Aires as one of the few cities that if you love it loves you back, but that's just me. Perhaps something healthy can result of there being less money in Argentina, but in the here and now, too many Argentines have far too little. Like I said though, even in the so called "glory days", Argentines have always been much too indisciplined in money matters, a trait that will prove difficult to change.

Re Iberia, I was in economy, but in 18L, so quite far forward (adjacent to the #3 engine). Asides from a strange Paraguayan sat next to me, who resembled a cross between Stalin and Pinochet and lectured me on the wonders of contraband (in a Guarani accent!), the flight was smooth as glass (pilot evaded some storms) and the Airbus amazingly quiet. The bitch was arriving at MAD at 06:00 and connecting to LHR, making the trip 22 hours door-to-door!  Yawn

Saludos del Artico!

ZXV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
LVTMB
Posts: 293
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RE: Photos & Fingerprints At EZE, Etc Starting 01-05

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:36 am

Tocó fondo=hit the bottom.

MB