highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:15 pm

Well,

It appears the pensions are gone. And it also appears UA is still losing money, lots of money. My question is, what's left to cut? Staff it would seem is as minimal as it can be. Routes, airplanes? Any insight would be appreciated.

-jlk
Go Cubs!
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:25 pm

I think UA could cut their wrists and speed up their demise.

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:28 pm

UA should cut their management and learn how to run proper airline.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:32 pm

I'm still waiting for them to replace the 8 737's in DSM with 30 RJ's like American Eagle did.......... I hope doesn't happen.
 
dbo861
Posts: 861
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:47 pm

Actually, DSM has been seeing 757s, A319s, and A320s lately from UA. I'm not sure what'll happen in the future, but I don't think they'll necessarily be down grading much in DSM.
 
baw716
Posts: 1460
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:59 pm

N1120a is dead on. The problem is management. I think about a statement I read re a comment made by Gordon Bethune about UA, a la the fact that they (UA management are in deep denial of their situation): The more I think about it, the more I think he is correct. Why else would UA continue to chase only the high fare paying passenger and leave the 95% of everybody else out of the equation.

Further, all UA does is cut. They don't reallocate resources, like any intelligent manager would do. I feel for the employees of United. They are getting a raw deal. Of course, the blame should mostly fall on the old CEO Goodwin, who gave the pilots the highest increases in the history of aviation and then had the market fall out from under them. Tilton isn't much better, he still has the old management in place, albeit in different places. They still don't have a clue about what they are doing. In point of fact, I could run that airline better than Tilton. At least I have a plan and the guts to see it through. It wouldn't be pretty, but it could work, with the right support from the employees.

The banks are not going to permit this to go on much longer. The other carriers, notably American, would kill to get United's Pacific Routes, then it would supplant United with the global route structure that it lacks because of its Pacific presence. Of course, the minute this happens, Star Alliance has major problems, because with no major US player, the alliance could crack overnight.

United will be sold off in pieces and what is left will be liquidated at auction. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they are already having some kind of discussions with other carriers already. AA, CO and DL have all spoken recently of merger discussions with United.

They just need to get it done already. Leaving people to suffer as they are now, with a slow painful death is a crime. The best thing for UA to do now is sell itself off and hope it can save the employees jobs by making that part of the deal. Lets hope it happens soon.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
scotron11
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:45 pm

Other carriers throats!
 
jopavon
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:53 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:53 pm

Well, maybe UA is now thinking employees paying to work there...that's the only solution...no wages. UA is loosing their mind having employees pay all the cuts.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:53 pm

1. "Why else would UA continue to chase only the high fare paying passenger and leave the 95% of everybody else out of the equation."

I fly United all the time, for both business and pleasure, and always get a good fare. They are certainly not only chasing the high-fare paying passenger (except on JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO runs). And Ted certainly does not chase high-fare paying customers.


2. "They don't reallocate resources..."

This is not true. They have reallocated practically all South American routes from Miami to Chicago and Washington. And they recently announced a reallocation of equipment to expand international flying 14% while reducing domestic capacity.


3. "AA, CO and DL have all spoken recently of merger discussions with United."

This is also not true. AA and DL have not spoken with UA about a merger (unless I've missed something, in which case I'd like to see a link to an article). And Gordon Bethune said he was interested in talking with UA but that UA was did not show any interest back.


United's management seems no better or worse than any other legacy carrier. I don't see American or Delta posting huge profits.
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:01 am

When is United set to exit bankruptcy? They have been in there for a LONG time and i was just wondering if there is any new date set for them to leave?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:13 am

Has UAL cut any positions in Oak Grove? Are they top-heavy? I would think they could cut management.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:19 am

N1120a is on to something. In 1991 when it looked like Carl Icahn would pull the plug on TWA all the management bailed. I don't mean an orderly departure, either. It was like one day they were there and the next they were gone.

But the company didn't collapse. The people who bought fuel and cups and napkins kept on buying and the people who worked the gates and counters and planes kept on working. At that point, we all realized that a large number of managers wasn't necessary to keep the company going.

Maybe UAL will have a similar epiphany and survive in spite of not being constantly supervised...TC
FL450, M.85
 
ATLhomeCMH
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:25 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:27 am

There's PLENTY left to cut:

-a/c
-routes
-more staff
-focus cities and smaller hubs
-inflight food
-ff perks
-IFE


...just to name a few.

I'm sure they'll find something.  Smile
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
mojo89
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:30 am


Has UAL cut any positions in Oak Grove? Are they top-heavy? I would think they could cut management.

Not sure where Oak Grove is, but they have made cuts at ELK Grove. Yes even management.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:36 am

Who made history when he made the comment "I can make a pizza so cheap that no one will want to eat it", in refernce to the fact that after you cut so far, you reach dimisnishing returns?

Was it ol Herbie?
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:44 am

Well, I've learned to accept that no matter what anyone says, or how many facts they use to back it up, people still think UA is going to die in the next few days after the post. So I'm just going to say, you're all wrong! Discuss.
 
mojo89
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:48 am

FriendlySkies-
Once again we agree.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:55 am

Ual is still hireing for positions across the country but they are hireing at much lower wages than their counter parts...its part of a plan to compete with the lcc,s... If they could sell off some of the pacific regions and concentrate on the us and europe they might make it... But they need to start chopping at the top
i can see for 80 miles
 
bahadir
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:01 am

I don't think UAL has to cut a lot. Actually, they have been going in other direction since this whole mess started for legacy airlines:
- They serve more food than any other airline in US domestic routes.
- They enhanced their domestic F class service.
- They enhanced their business class service internationaly.
- They have introduced Ted to low yield/vacation oriented routes.
- They have introduced P.S for people who want more than a pair of wings in coast to coast market.
- They have inflight entertaintment for free (except 737s) on mainline fleet.
- They have Ch. 9
- They have Economy Plus (the only airline with it. AA is cutting back on the MRTC by being sneaky about it)
- They have upgraded the FF program that enables you to spend less miles for shorter flights.
- It is still easy to find cheap fares (even cheaper than Southwest or JetBlue) in some markets if you are flexible enough. (Use Sidestep if you are that price sensitive).

Despite all the bad things that happened to the employees, they have put on their smiling faces and best attitudes. Like this F/A that came to me when I was stuck on the last row of 737 due to cancelled fligth and she asked me if I wanted white or red wine. She said she was sorry that I was stuck on the last row and she said if I was hungry she could try to put together something from F class.

(A few bad apples exist in every airline)


I think United it THE BEST airline in the US. Period!

I wouldn't mind paying $30-60 more per round trip for all this service.

UA doesn't need to be another DL, NW, AA.. They are a perfect airline as they are..
Earthbound misfit I
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:02 am

If they could sell off some of the pacific regions and concentrate on the us and europe they might make it... But they need to start chopping at the top

Selling any of the Pacific routes would kill UA almost immediately...those routes are UA's most profitable. They need those routes, or the other carriers will eat UA alive...
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:06 am

They have inflight entertaintment for free (except 737s) on mainline fleet.

Just curious...when did UA start charging for IFE in the 737s? I don't see how that's possible or true. Love the rest of your post though, glad to see some positive comments on UA. Of course, we're all disregarded as the "UA Cult" by those who are blind to the fact that UA has actually cut more costs than any other airline in the US since 9/11...they just had a much bigger mess to clean up, thanks to the unions and managment pre-2000.
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:08 am

Will axing the pensions save them money, and if so, any idea how much? Was this an intentional cost-cutting measure or did they simply not have enough money to pay it?
Go Cubs!
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:25 am

Will axing the pensions save them money, and if so, any idea how much? Was this an intentional cost-cutting measure or did they simply not have enough money to pay it?

Over the course of the pension payouts...roughly $6 billion. They can't pay for it, if they do they will not survive. So they really don't have a choice. Go blame the ESOP, bad idea from the start...most of the employees were either brainwashed by Wolf or lost the majority of the vote. But they're all regretting it now.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:33 am

FriendlySkies,
my post came out wrong. I put Except 737s in there because they don't have IFE except audio.

Earthbound misfit I
 
RHSNYC
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 12:22 pm

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:10 pm

WOW! I'm a UA Flight Attendant and want to say " T H A N K Y O U!!!" for the kind words regarding United and good service you've received!! Years ago I worked in Customer Service for American, became a Flight Attendant for Pan Am and eventually transferred over to UA. I've literally seen UA transform and improve over the years in many areas of service and have become very happy working for them. Of all airlines to "jump to" UA fit Pan Am's personality type the best! We seem to have adjusted better there than those who went elsewhere. I always try to keep the passengers happy and laughing knowing that I'm approachable. What we're going through is very upsetting but that's not the flying public's fault so many of us know to be friendly and cheerful. I've had the BEST conversations with you all in the galley and even shed a tear getting to know you for the brief time we've shared on the flight. THANKS AGAIN to those of you who support United (me)!!
 
avek00
Posts: 3158
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:26 pm

"I don't think UAL has to cut a lot. Actually, they have been going in other direction since this whole mess started for legacy airlines:
- They serve more food than any other airline in US domestic routes."

Um...No. Continental has more intra-North American meal/snack flights (in BOTH cabins) than any other USA/Canadian airline. What led you to believe that UA serves more food than CO, the airline that PRIDES itself on offering "meals at mealtimes"?
Live life to the fullest.
 
jettatco
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:55 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:52 pm

I agree UA won't go away, but the bidding war for Gordon between US and UA will be interesting. If Gordon goes to UA plan on him doing the same as he did with CO. He still has clout with the big banks and will likely try and merge CO/UA. With UA in bankruptcy it should be easy under ailing carriers act to get by antitrust. He will also make sure both CO and UA employees will be treated right.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: UAL, What's Left To Cut?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:05 pm

I don't think there will be any bidding war between UA and US. All signs say that UA is not interested.

US I'm sure is thoroughly interested.


N

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