Boeing Nut
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It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:05 pm

In the latest AW&ST, an article states that Boeing is talking to airlines about launching the 777LRF. It will be able to carry 10 ft high pallets loaded through a cargo door that is to be located aft of the port wing. Evidently, crew rest areas will be installed above the cockpit and above the main deck for what Boeing calls "supernumerary cargo handling personnel". The 777 Freighter will be able to carry a 222,000 lb payload for 5,200 nm. The 747F carries up to 248,000 lbs 4,445 nm. The 777LRF will have the highest cargo density rating at 9.9 lbs per cubic feet. For comparison, the 747F has 9.8 lbs per cu ft and the A380F will have 8 lbs per cu ft. No time frame was given for a potential launch date.

Let the speculation begin!!  Big thumbs up
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N1120A
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:27 pm

>In the latest AW&ST, an article states that Boeing is talking to airlines about launching the 777LRF. It will be able to carry 10 ft high pallets loaded through a cargo door that is to be located aft of the port wing. Evidently, crew rest areas will be installed above the cockpit and above the main deck for what Boeing calls "supernumerary cargo handling personnel". The 777 Freighter will be able to carry a 222,000 lb payload for 5,200 nm. The 747F carries up to 248,000 lbs 4,445 nm. The 777LRF will have the highest cargo density rating at 9.9 lbs per cubic feet. For comparison, the 747F has 9.8 lbs per cu ft and the A380F will have 8 lbs per cu ft. No time frame was given for a potential launch date<

Sounds like the MD-11F operators will finally have a plane they can use when they cannot get any more MD-11 PAX aircraft. This sounds like an awesome plane. Still, no flip top nose, no outsized cargo, 747F still rules
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
greaser
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:40 pm

Given the A380F has 330,000 lbs MTOW, but the max. density is lower than both the 777/747, does this mean the 380F is only effective carrying parcels/low-density goods???
Also, whats the range on the 747ERF?
Now you're really flying
 
N1120A
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:58 pm

>Given the A380F has 330,000 lbs MTOW, but the max. density is lower than both the 777/747, does this mean the 380F is only effective carrying parcels/low-density goods???
Also, whats the range on the 747ERF<

Yes, it will be better for transporting lots and lots of lightweight packages. It will basically be a bigger MD-11F.

The range for the 747ERF is 4970 nm, according to Boeing.com, meaning it can do LAX-NRT with no stop in ANC
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:07 pm

crew rest areas will be installed above the cockpit and above the main deck

That's nothing new... Delta, Alitalia, etc are all flying T7s with that configuration already.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Udo
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:13 pm

With the aircraft's high price tag I expect Emirates to be among the first customers.
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:27 pm

About what price tag would the price be?

What airlines would be interested in the freighter?
 
N1120A
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:33 pm

>About what price tag would the price be?<

Probably a bit over 200 million US, as the 772LR PAX price tag is 202-225.5 million.

>What airlines would be interested in the freighter?<

LH Cargo, FX, EK Cargo, JL Cargo, AF Cargo, maybe UPS, etc.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DABZF
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:45 pm

I thought this was old news!?
Was it just not REALLY official until now?
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:45 pm

With the aircraft's high price tag I expect Emirates to be among the first customers.

Actually, according to SeattlePI... that's been EK's major holdup in ordering the pax 772LR. So who knows.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:56 pm

crew rest areas will be installed above the cockpit and above the main deck

That's nothing new... Delta, Alitalia, etc are all flying T7s with that configuration already.


Very true, but it could be surprising to some that this is incorporated in a cargo aircraft. The flight crew rest area doesn't surprise me at all, but the over the main deck does as it could impede loading the tall pallets.

Makes you wonder now if there will be any studies for a -300ERF. Probably not.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
SATL382G
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:14 pm

Greaser,

"Given the A380F has 330,000 lbs MTOW, but the max. density is ...."

Good luck getting your ultra lightweight A380F to fly....

SATL382G
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
greaser
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 am

SATL382G, hey man, don't blame me, i got me numbers from Airbus! I meant 330,000lbs of freight, MTOW is about 600,000lbs!!!
Now you're really flying
 
gigneil
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:01 am

Given the A380F has 330,000 lbs MTOW, but the max. density is lower than both the 777/747, does this mean the 380F is only effective carrying parcels/low-density goods???

Not at all. It will still be a very heavy hauler.

It just means that it has a high amount of volume vs its max payload. That's not necessarily a problem.

N
 
iowa744fan
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:13 am

First, it is good to see that Boeing is offering this model. I think that it could be a useful addition to some airlines cargo fleets, particularly in Asia and perhaps Emirates as the cargo industries there continue to grow rapidly. However, I am concerned that the price tag may be a sticking issue with some airlines. Particularly, an airline like Fed Ex. I would assume that Fed Ex is not too concerned with the cargo density rating. For them, as mentioned, the total cargo volume seems like it would be a more important factor...hence the A380F making a lot of sense for an airline like them. For their China routes, they are mainly interested on getting more volume to allow for more parcels to be carried on their limited number of slots into China. So, is this aircraft likely to be a strong candidate for Fed Ex? I can understand as a replacement/compliment for the MD-11 but the price tag seems like a bit much. Although more of UPS's business involves larger packages instead of overnight parcels, does this aircraft look to be a strong candidate for them either?
 
RedDragon
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:14 am

crew rest areas will be installed above the cockpit and above the main deck

That's nothing new... Delta, Alitalia, etc are all flying T7s with that configuration already.

Is the flight crew rest above the cockpit? I though it was located just behind the cockpit, à la 747...

How high would the internal load height be without overhead crew rests? Presumably that 10' figure is including them?

Rich
 
gigneil
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:19 am

I still see no actual evidence that they're prepared to offer it, of course.

N
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:42 am

Is the flight crew rest above the cockpit? I though it was located just behind the cockpit, à la 747...

You're right. It's just above and behind the cockpit.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
zvezda
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:17 am

I don't expect a B777-300ERF. Why? The only advantage it would have over the B777-200LRF is volume. However, it would cost more to buy, cost more to operate at a given payload/range, and have a lower payload capacity.
 
CcrlR
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:31 am

Finally a 777 Freighter! I have a question, Can you make the MD-80 a freighter? I know about the DC-9s are ale to do it, but what about the DC-9-80 variant?
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
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solnabo
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:35 am

The 747 ERF still rules!

Micke//SE  Big grin
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jayhup
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:07 am

UPS will be the launch customer.

Trust me...

JH
 
iowa744fan
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:25 am

CclrR,

I am sure that you can. The US Navy and I think that Air Force operate military versions of the DC-9-30 with a side cargo door, so I am sure that it is possible. It just might take a little bit of time for certification (I wouldn't expect too much since it is in use with the military). Airborne Express (now DHL)does use the DC-9 for cargo operations, however, they don't have a side cargo door. Instead, they use a narrower type of container that fits through the normal passenger door. To answer your question though, it could easily be done.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:27 am

IF this happens I would expect Airbus to offer a A340-500F ...That would be a nice freighter.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:51 am

UPS will probably be the launch cst. With the China flights now tripled of what they were. The 742's being returned to the lessors. The limited numbers of MD-11's that can be converted and buying Menlo to get into heavy freight, a LRF is needed very bad for UPS. Boeing wants UPS' business back from Airbus. UPS gave Airbus their largest single aircraft order ever with the A300.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:02 am

Guys.. it will happen, trust me. ConcordeBoy and I announced this back in August, so it basically is old news.

But yes, if you want a source, you can use me. I saw some internal literature about the timeline for offering, certification, etc.. If you have any specific questions, I'll answer what I can (within reason). Send me an IM or e-mail and I'll do what I can to help you.

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:17 am

Is the flight crew rest above the cockpit? I though it was located just behind the cockpit, à la 747...

Above, and slightly behind.


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DC10GUY
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:18 am

2009 is a long way a way, and I never say never ... But. FEDEX won't buy new 777's with 60 + MD11's why would they ??? Douglas aircraft fly good forever.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:32 am

IF this happens I would expect Airbus to offer a A340-500F ...That would be a nice freighter.

Probably not.... the A345 has a much higher OEW (nearly 56,000 lbs heavier) and much lower payload than the 772LR.

2009 is a long way a way, and I never say never ... But. FEDEX won't buy new 777's with 60 + MD11's why would they ???

Well there is such a thing as *growth* in industry. If you can fill 60 MD-11s, and more MD-11s are hard to come by, then you'd be a fool not to look for alternative aircraft.

Can you make the MD-80 a freighter? I know about the DC-9s are ale to do it, but what about the DC-9-80 variant?

Yes it's possible.... but it isn't very practical. The narrow 2+3 arrangement doesn't allow for the standardized pallets that can be loaded into typical NB freighers like the 757. Converting 737-G2 (733/734/735) would be better.
 
N1120A
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:35 am

>2009 is a long way a way, and I never say never ... But. FEDEX won't buy new 777's with 60 + MD11's why would they ??? Douglas aircraft fly good forever.<

Not that I don't like your signature line, but fly good forever?
Considering that they will have near 40 year old ex-AA DC-10s in the system by 2009, they will need to replace their oldest planes pretty badly by then. Also, given the limited number of MD-11s out there, and the fact that they own most of them, the 777LRF might be their only option
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:05 pm

I have believed since it's inception that the 777-200LR would be the basis for the first new build, all freight 777. However I would be more inclined to believe at this point we will also see a freighter conversion program for 777-200/ER before or soon after the launch of 777-200LRF as the first 777-200/ER aircraft are approaching 10 years in service and their residual values become more attractive to freighter operators. A quick and dirty estimate comes up with a "777-200SF" with a 75-95t payload and a range of 3,700-4,700nm depending on if the conversion was from an A market or B market 777.

The 777-200LRF looks like it would be the most efficient large freighter to date in terms of tonne/mi costs. A conversion program for earlier 777-200's would be a close second slightly surpassng MD-11F.

-widebodyphotog

If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
flpuck6
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:10 pm

Air France is looking to supplement its 747-400ERF fleet with 777LRFs.
Bonjour Chef!
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:17 pm

Air Canada is closer then we think to looking at the 777ER. Can someone confrim this, we were told this by the 744 pilots on AC flight home from YUL
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:20 pm

Air Canada is closer then we think to looking at the 777ER. Can someone confrim this, we were told this by the 744 pilots on AC flight home from YUL


Whaaaaaaaaat?

I doubt they have the funds, and if they did, they've already got the A345 and A330... why not go with the A346?
 
iowa744fan
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:38 pm

A quick question about the older Fed Ex DC-10-10 conversions. Are these aircraft mainly used for service within the United States? Are any (DC-10-30s for that matter) used for international flying? If not, do you think that Fed Ex would consider more A300s as replacements for those? The cabins are not as wide, tall, or long as the DC-10s, but I would imagine that they are not too much smaller. I just bring this up because I would love to have Fed Ex buy a bunch of 777-200LRFs, but for this area, I wonder if buying A300s, used or new build would be cheaper? I guess that you will have to fly a few more crews, but I am curious about the cost structure and what would be a cheaper option.
 
gigneil
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:01 pm

MTOW is about 600,000lbs!!!

I missed this earlier.

The MTOW of an A380-800F is over 1.2 million pounds, not 600,000 pounds.

N
 
DC10GUY
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:03 pm

Fedex is buying used A300-600's they make great freighters. Unless Boeing can start dealing airplanes like Airbus does I'm sure Fedex will stay with Airbuses. They have served well.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
greaser
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:05 pm

Gigneil, so the 380F is basically an a380HGWF??? Coz the A380-800 MTOW is 606,000lbs
Now you're really flying
 
gigneil
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:08 pm

No, it is not. Even a regular A380-800 has an MTOW over 1.1 million pounds.

The MTOW of a 777-200ER is more than 606,000 lbs. The MTOW of a 747-400ER is 919,000 lbs.

N
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:52 pm

Can you make the MD-80 a freighter? I know about the DC-9s are ale to do it, but what about the DC-9-80 variant?

Yep. Boeing converts just about every aircraft in there line up. Including McDonnel Douglas types.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aviationservices/freighterconversion/ (pan down for links)
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:10 pm

MTOW's for various A/C mentioned in this post

A380-800 = 1,234,576lbs(560,000kg)
A380F (Airbus Projection) = 1,300,714lbs(590,000kg)
747-400ERF = 910,000lbs(412,770kg)
777-200ER(GE 90-94B or Trent 894) = 656,000lbs(297,560kg)
MD-11F = 602,500lbs(273,290kg) or 630,500lbs(285,988kg)


Late build Md-11F's were available with the higher gross weight option of pax MD-11's

A 777-200LRF will have an MTOW of 766,000-775,000Lbs(347,455-351,538kg)

-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:27 am

Trent 894

Trent895  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Hamlet69
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:23 am

Just received word that Boeing could make an official announcement as early as Monday. Don't expect a launch order, though, only an official announcement stating the aircraft's offer to customers. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:27 am

BTW - forgot to mention that LH Cargo, UPS and EVA Cargo are the three highest rated 'potentials' to launch the aircraft - or at the least the most interested at the moment.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
greaser
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:48 am

I don't think LH cargo would be the first in line, as EVA Air would be. This 777LRF would integrate fantastically with their mainline 777s, and they should jump to the opportunity of yet again being another 777 variant launch customer.
LH cargo would probably wait a little longer for the specs and all, and could take a little more time, aren't they having a few MD-11s converted to Fs now?
UPS is cutting back on its A306s from Airbus due to over supply so i think they too will wait till they figure what their market can hold, but they should order it within the first 2 years of launch.
Perhaps China Eastern Cargo??? They operate MD-11s and are probably interested...
Maybe Martinair cargo could, but could tie in with a 777 passenger ordered rumored to be analysed by them..
Now you're really flying
 
gigneil
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:35 pm

Well, the cutback in AB6s is due to a oversupply in shorthaul capacity.

They have admitted that they're way behind in longahaul capacity, so I would expect them to do something.

With such a small M11 fleet, I wouldn't be surprised if they sold them all off and replaced them entirely with 777s.

N
 
United777
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:37 pm

Just thought you guys would like to see this article from a local news station.

http://www.komotv.com/stories/33966.htm
 
dalecary
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:50 pm

LH could well be in the first line of orderers for the 772LRF, particularly if they combine it with a 773ER order(which has been rumored on several sites and media[ATWonline] in recent times).
Dale.
 
N79969
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:01 pm

Dale,

Are you saying that LH may (with heavy emphasis on "may") be interested in actually acquiring passenger 777-300ER? And not just baiting Airbus to save a few Euros?

That would be big news if actually occurs.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: It's Official - Boeing Is Marketing The 777LRF

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:37 pm

And not just baiting Airbus to save a few Euros?

I'm not gonna open that can of worms.  Yeah sure
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.