sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:43 am

The gloves are off!

See:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/111204dnbusswa.4d20f93a.html

Southwest has abandoned their long-standing stance of being "passionately neutral" on the issue of the Wright Amendment. This announcement, coupled with their specific announcement that they would not seek to serve DFW, tells me taht WN intends to actively seek to eliminate the Wright Amendment, and (for the first time) create meaningful low-fare competition in teh north Texas air travel marketplace.

Senator Hutchison's statement is very revealing. Southwest's political clout may have just overcome AA's (as their financial clout did years ago).

Game on; I'd not bet against Southwest.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:47 am

I'm interested to read and hear but I don't want to register at DMN. Perhaps if you could explain the story in more detail for us that don't want to register.

Thanks.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:48 am

One needs to 'subscribe' in order to read the web-link article, but I think most people get the general gist. If Wright/Shelby is repealed, I would not be surprised that this could cause FL to rethink its future expansion over at DFW.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Okie
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:06 am

Maybe others beside myself see the connection along with another active post about WN not going to DFW.

You see about as many AA flights at ATL as you will soon the number of DL flights at DFW and I doubt that you will see many flights of other carriers at DAL. There is just not much gate space left in the terminal at DAL that has not been turned in to WN corporate areas.

The announcement that WN is not going to DFW in the near future may be a way to not have AA fight against WN trying to shelve the Wright Amendment.

One of those you don't poop in my front yard I won't poop in yours unwritten agreements.

Okie
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:20 am

I hope they can get rid of the Wright Ammendment. I really don't see why it's been around for as long as it has. I think it's original purpose is now rather mute.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:47 am

Okie- your speculation mirrors my predictions of several months ago.

For those who do not want to register with DMN, here's the story (at least until it gets deleted):

===

Wright Amendment outdated, SWA's Kelly says
Kelly also says Southwest uninterested in serving D/FW, wants to expand Love Field

11:42 AM CST on Friday, November 12, 2004

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News


Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport no longer needs the support of the “anticompetitive, outdated” Wright Amendment, said Southwest Airlines Co. chief executive Gary Kelly Friday morning.

The remarks represent a shift in the Dallas-based discounter’s approach toward the law that restricts how far its planes can fly from Dallas Love Field.


FILE PHOTO
Southwest is uninterested in serving D/FW and is looking to expand Love Field.
“We’ve said before that we were passionately neutral about it,” Mr. Kelly told the North Texas Chamber of Commerce. “I am now not saying we are passionately neutral about it - that is off the table.”

“It does seem like it’s outdated,” he continued. “Even Jim Wright has been quoted as saying - and I’m paraphrasing here - but he said that it’s not needed.”

It's unclear whether the legislative landscape that keeps the Wright Amendment in place has changed, though one long-time defender appeared to shift her stance Friday.

"Maybe it is time to do away with the Wright Amendment," said U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, adding that further study should be done before a final decision is made.

The senator lauded the goal of the amendment, which helped ensure that D/FW Airport would be the region's primary airport and not be a financial strain on Dallas and Fort Worth.

"I think it's definitely time to look at the financial picture at D/FW," the senator said, noting that Love Field has a number of idle gates that could serve long-distance passengers. "I would love to see the convenience of it if they can open Love Field."

The law prevents Southwest from serving cities beyond the adjoining states of Texas. A second amendment allows Southwest to serve Mississippi, Alabama and Kansas from Love Field. The amendments have allowed D/FW to grow to the third largest airport in the world.

But Delta Air Lines Inc.’s imminent departure from D/FW is ample evidence, Mr. Kelly said, that D/FW no longer needs the protection. Delta’s reduction of flights from 250 a day to 21 a day “completely changes the competitive landscape” for North Texas flying, and Southwest would like to be able to grow its Love Field flying to pick up the slack.

Mr. Kelly stopped short of saying Southwest would actively lobby to have the Wright Amendment appealed. “We’re not going to stand in anybody’s way” in terms of efforts to modify the amendment.

The congressional delegation from Tennessee has introduced legislation to become one of the states exempted from the restrictions.

“It’s not just a Dallas issue,” Mr. Kelly said to reporters after the breakfast. “It affects Fort Worth too. It’s a regional issue.”

Southwest has no intention of serving D/FW after having closely studied the options, Mr. Kelly said. It wants to expand Love Field flying, where traffic has actually dropped about 10 percent in recent years. But no politicians at the City of Dallas, which owns Love Field, have brought up the issue in part because of a strong legal response that would come from Fort Worth.

Staff Writer Tony Hartzel contributed to this repo
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
AZjetgeek
Posts: 229
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:55 am

I applaud WN for finally taking a stand to get rid of the Wright/Shelby Amendment. It was a bad idea at the time and it's time has long since passed. DFW is well established, so WN's service at DAL is no longer a threat to DFW's existence.

If WN does succeed in getting Wright repealed, the folks at DAL might have to look into negotiations with WN to relinquish some of their gate space to other airlines that would be willing to move over to Love Field in order to relieve delays and congestion at DFW.
Long live the RJ!
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:10 am

if this does happen, look for DAL to become the next MDW, except with longer runways but less gates.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:24 am

For future reference, on sites that require a log in, go to www.bugmenot.com. Then key in the URL for the site you want and it will give you an id and password for that site.

[Edited 2004-11-12 20:25:19]
 
dagolden1
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:04 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:35 am

Goingboeing,

That's sweet, I hate sites that make you register just to read an article, I'm going to have to add that one to my favorites! Thanks for the link!


The Wright Amendment is very outdated and I do hope that WN can successfully get rid of it, I'm very glad that they have finally changed there stance on it, wonder what took so long.

Let's just say hypothetically that the amendment is lifted, can anybody speculate on what new routes WN would introduce from Love Field? I'd be interested in everyone's opinions.

dagolden1





[Edited 2004-11-12 21:39:23]
 
bigb
Posts: 727
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:05 am

Good news for the Dallas area.
ETSN Baber, USN
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:09 am

oh jeez that is at least 50-75 flights or so a day in itself.

the obvious:

DAL-BWI
DAL-LAX
DAL-MDW
DAL-OAK
DAL-MCO
DAL-PHX
DAL-LAS
DAL-SEA
DAL-PHL

the maybes:
DAL-TPA
DAL-PBI
DAL-ISP
DAL-TUS
DAL-SAN
DAL-ORF
DAL-MHT
DAL-PVD
DAL-BUF
DAL-MCI


probably more i haven't even thought of.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:59 am

If Wright/Shelby were repealed, DAL-TPA and DAL-SAN would almost definitely start. WN operates these routes out of AUS, there's no reason they couldn't make them work from DAL. Especially now that DL is gone.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
AZjetgeek
Posts: 229
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:13 am

I, for one, would love to see DAL-PHX. My sister lives in Dallas. I might actually get to visit her once in a while. Three years ago, I did fly PHX-ELP-DAL. It's so absurd to have to change planes in ELP. A 733 or 73G are perfectly capable of making the trip non-stop DAL-PHX.
Long live the RJ!
 
KarlB737
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:23 am

 
GD727
Posts: 899
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:41 am

I'm glad WN is stepping up to the plate on the Wright Amendment. The population of Dallas alone is something like 1.2 million, I don't think an expansion of DAL will hurt DFW. Hell, Boston's population is half of Dallas and we have TWO reliever airports (PVD and MHT) and BOS is doing fine, in fact every gate is being used! Same thing with Houston (even though it's a bigger city) HOU isn't restricted, but IAH certainly isn't hurting!
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:52 am

The trouble WN will have, and will likely not overcome, will be the people around Love Field that will fight tooth and nail against expansion.

It should be interesting to watch, though.

Steve
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:56 am

I can also see DAL-FLL in competion with FL.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
jcs17
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:43 am

The trouble WN will have, and will likely not overcome, will be the people around Love Field that will fight tooth and nail against expansion.

People living around DAL have no political clout. The area immediately surrounding Love Field is largely low-income and the area could use a boost that would come from increased traffic. For the 75th time, the DAL arrival/departure patterns avoid the nicer neighborhoods of Dallas. The Park Cities are immediately to the east of Love, but there is little noise impact at all.

if this does happen, look for DAL to become the next MDW, except with longer runways but less gates.

Actually, DAL has significant space availible for more gates, there is an entire terminal without any gates left over from the Braniff era.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Ken777
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:01 am

As I recall, AA did not want to leave Love because DFW was a pain to get to. The benefit of Love is not WN, but the convenience for business travelers. DFW wasn't convenient when it started and it still isn't. If the Wright Amendment is repealed then other airlines (including AA) are going to be looking for access as part of the price and I don't think that WN will move offices in order to get the deal done.
 
jr
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:20 pm

"American Airlines disagrees. In a statement issued Friday, the Fort Worth, Texas-based carrier said the Wright Amendment is just as relevant today as it was when it first passed and helps preserve DFW's position as the principle aviation gateway for North Texas.

"Repealing the Wright Amendment would undermine the success of DFW, whose contribution to the region's growth and prosperity continues to be substantial," American said.

American also said it is opposed to the "Tennessee Amendment" to the Wright Amendment".


Imagine that... who would have thought. About time that someone wants to slap them!



I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:25 pm

Well out of my own selfish needs I'll say it again. I wish WN (and maybe CO at least) would serve Ft Worth -Meacham. A few Non-stops to OKC-AUS-HOU/IAH-ELP and ABQ would be more convenient for me, and it is all about me  Big grin

Oh well...

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Veni, Vidi, Bibi

[Edited 2004-11-13 05:41:33]
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
GD727
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:31 pm

"American Airlines disagrees. In a statement issued Friday, the Fort Worth, Texas-based carrier said the Wright Amendment is just as relevant today as it was when it first passed and helps preserve DFW's position as the principle aviation gateway for North Texas.

"Repealing the Wright Amendment would undermine the success of DFW, whose contribution to the region's growth and prosperity continues to be substantial," American said.

American also said it is opposed to the "Tennessee Amendment" to the Wright Amendment".


Oh right. All 5.7 million people in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area are going to stop using DFW because DAL will allow unrestricted flights, riiight. You know, I mean no disrespect to AA, they are a good carrier, but their logic on this situation is just plain stupid. I know DFW is their stronghold, but to think that a metropolitan area of 5.7 million people should only have one airport is completely ridiculous! Really, DFW has around 2,100 movements a day and they think opening up another airport for decent service will be a problem? Get real.

Another example would be MDW, it has a good amount of service, but is ORD not still the 1st or 2nd busiest airport in the world? See? ORD wasn't hurt by MDW! Chicago is a city of comparable size to Dallas too, so this example fits well.
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
Tiger119
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:43 pm

Planespotting, add DAL-IND.

KarlB737, their server was out of service, what did the WSJ article say?

Is there enough area around DAL to expand the runways? Reason I ask is I wonder if carriers would want to start bringing in larger equipment to DAL if the amendment is repelled or changed.
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
sccutler
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:50 pm

Is there enough area around DAL to expand the runways? Reason I ask is I wonder if carriers would want to start bringing in larger equipment to DAL if the amendment is repelled or changed.

No need. DAL's runways have plenty of length for whatever might come by, though I do not realistically see much chance of a resumption of widebody passenger service.

Old times, Delta and Braniff both served DAL with 747s; AA had DC-10 service out of DAL; and Airborne has a daily 767 cargo run even now. Only regular widebody visitor with pax anymore is Air Force One.

13R/31L is 8,800 feet;
13L/31R is 7,752 feet;
18/36 is 6,147 feet (and almost never used....)

Both of the parallel 13/31 runways have ILS approaches, on both ends.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:28 pm

If this does happen, look for DAL to become the next MDW, except with longer runways but less gates.

Actually, DAL has significant space availible for more gates, there is an entire terminal without any gates left over from the Braniff era.

Actually Jcs17, most of the old Braniff gates in the East Concourse were torn down a couple of years ago. I think all that is left of the gate area is the three gates just to the east of Gates 41, 42 where Continental Express is now. Those were the three gates that AA refurbished to compete with Legend.

Even though Legend had ceased operations in early December 2000, AA was still planning on opening their new refurbished gates at Love Field. They were set to open in late September of 2001, but after the September 11 attacks, AA, who had been sharing Gates 41, 42 with Continental Express pulled out of Love Field all together.

There were 14 other gates to the east of the refurbished AA gates that comprised the rest of the Braniff Terminal, including the rotunda, and all those were torn down.

Love Field gets final OK for limited expansion
Master plan addresses traffic, noise, pollution; work to begin soon
Thursday, March 7, 2002

The federal government has cleared the way for limited expansion and other improvements at Dallas Love Field. First up: demolition of an old terminal.

Source

That was the old Braniff Terminal that got torn down. Also, if you read the rest of the article, the Love Field Master Plan limits the airport to 32 gates total, so Planespotting is right. DAL would have fewer gates than MDW but longer runways.

LoneStarMike

 
scotron11
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:33 pm

Not that it will effect myself, but I completely agree with WN on this one. But then again, it goes to the heart of all protectionist goings on that happen everyday in aviation and this is just an example of one of them. So get rid of it and hopefully "all barriers" will disappear wherever they are!

And of course, you have the NIMBY crowd...and we know what to say to them, do we not?
 
swardu
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:01 pm

Actually, I have done a study on this Wright Amendment stuff, as I had submitted a proposal to WN (my employer) to DO exactly that....beat the Wright Amendment. Problem is, acording to every DOT brief I've read on this, whenever ANY airline (Legend, CO, Ozark come to mind) announce that they want to begin service to DAL, the City of Ft worth starts hammering DOT,and then they get their friends, the DFW Regulatory Board in the fray, who then gets good ole American Airlines in the mix....then after 2 years of bickering, using all your start up cash in legal fees, DOT says there is no reason you can't fly to Love Field. Well the same 3 entities, file an appeal to stall things longer.

Let's face it....in order for Love Field to overtake DFW in terms of "Major Airport" status, Love Field service would have to increase a whopping 2000%.....yes, I said 2000% in order to reach that 2000+ flight plateau and 1st off, there is not enough room at Love Field to expand to that size....it is a physical impossibility. Secondly, WN does not have that much cash to expand Love Field, NOR to keep Boeing in business that long for new 73G equipment in an effort to reach that almighty 2000-2500 flight plateau.

So all of you officials at DFW, please don't worry. We at WN don't want your silly Major Aiprort status over at Love Field, never have, never will want it. The Wright Amendment is outdated and all of you people know it is, all of you Regulatory folks know, we can't attain your status because of space constraints, so GIVE IT UP!!!!! AA has your land at DFW, let us have Love Field and provide a tiny amount of competition. What happened to free enterprise and competition. What's wrong DFW....you guys afraid of Southwest and their 130 flights a day over at Love Field?
 
dagolden1
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:04 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:18 am

Well put Swardu! That's exactly how I feel, WN doesn't want to create a major airport out of Love Field, they just want to have the option of adding more flights with no restrictions. I'm glad WN is finally making a stand and hopefully they can get the deal done and eliminate this ridiculous amendment. Like many other people have stated there are numerous cities with more than one successful airport, I don't think it's to much to ask in Dallas.

My question though is how is WN going to fight this battle along with worrying about what to do at MDW?
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:53 am

People living around DAL have no political clout. The area immediately surrounding Love Field is largely low-income and the area could use a boost that would come from increased traffic.

Ever hear of the Park Cities?

True, the immediate surrounding area near DAL is low-income, but Park Cities is just a 5-minute drive away. More flights mean more noise for these people, who are among the most politically connected in Texas.

On balance, however, I think these people would love to have more flights from DAL. DFW is a long drive for these well-traveled citizens, and I think most would like to see Wright/Shelby disappear.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:54 am

People living around DAL have no political clout. The area immediately surrounding Love Field is largely low-income and the area could use a boost that would come from increased traffic. For the 75th time, the DAL arrival/departure patterns avoid the nicer neighborhoods of Dallas.

I wouldn't go that far.... some of the biggest and most expensive homes, and their associated wealthy owners, are within shouting distance of DAL. I'm referring to the mansions on Straight Ln. and the intersetcion of Loop 12 and Midway Rd.... where Marc Cuban and other prominent Dallas-ites happen to live.

Part of the noise issue is that DAL is the sole remaining base for 732 opperations. There are only 15 of these aircraft left, but they opperate so frequently out of DAL, they account for a large percentage of the noise pollution. Once they leave in 2005, the noise argument should quiet down  Big grin

My question though is how is WN going to fight this battle along with worrying about what to do at MDW?

This legal fight could easily take 2 years or more... WN has pleanty of time to build-up MDW before turning back to DAL. WN is by far the largest presence in DAL... and they could sit on that egg for a while before hatching it.

On balance, however, I think these people would love to have more flights from DAL. DFW is a long drive for these well-traveled citizens, and I think most would like to see Wright/Shelby disappear.

Don't forget that the City Council has put down the funds for an additional DART commuter rail line. This new branch would run from Downtown, to the American Airlines center, through the convention centers on I-35, and finally coming to Love Field. It would also continue east of Downtown into Deep Ellum and Fair Park. That hits some of the most popular sites in Dallas and connects them to an inner-city airport. If DAL was opened to unrestricted flights, that rail line and the connecting points of interest would see a huge boost in profit....



[Edited 2004-11-13 19:00:42]
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:57 am

You cannot simply eliminate the Wright Amendment and leave WN in control of the majority of gates at DAL. If you are going to re-open DAL as a "umlimited" airport, then you also have to re-open all its gates to an open bid, or else this is simply handling a monopoly to Southwest.

Everyone else except Southwest decided they wished to serve Dallas to "far off" destinations and therefore left Love Field for DFW when it was required. Now Southwest would like to re-open DAL? I think everyone's for that, but everyone will want, and deserves, an opportunity for equal access at DAL.

Steve
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:34 am

If you are going to re-open DAL as a "umlimited" airport, then you also have to re-open all its gates to an open bid, or else this is simply handling a monopoly to Southwest.

There are only 14 gates total that are open at DAL. The rest were purchased by WN and converted into office space. I highly doubt the NIBMY's would approve if this office space were to be turned back into gates as it would mean more flights, more traffic, and more noise...

So are you suggesting a complete re-allocation of all the gates? How would that be fair? WN has payed the leases on these gates for the last 30 years, paid for multiple airport enhancements, and is the sole reason the passenger terminal at DAL still exists.

As for a WN monopoly... what about AA's monopoly on DFW traffic? Should those gates be re-assigned as well? It is so in the best interest to the Dallas economy to open up DAL... the Wright Ammendment is unbashed, out -dated, anti-competitive legislation.

Now Southwest would like to re-open DAL? I think everyone's for that, but everyone will want, and deserves, an opportunity for equal access at DAL.

No... everyone does not want to enter DAL. Opening a new station means introducing your own equipment, your own ground staff, renovating your own gates, ect. The article even states no other airline (namely AA, CO, DL) has interest in expanding DAL as it wouldn't be econmical with DFW so close.

Besides, entering DAL would be like trying to crack ATL... WN has the gates, and more importantly, the traveller loyalty in a vice-grip.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:43 am

Although a Democrat (socially speaking), I believe the restrictions placed on Love Field are anti-business. (Same with the perimeter rules at DCA and LGA).

Pehaps an overhaul of the Wright Amendment would please the folks in Ft Worth (limiting the number of beyond-Shelby flights to say 15% of total scheduled departures). Again, that prohibits free trade but it might be a stopgap measure until a full repeal can be accomplished.

I would, however be opposed to WN snapping up 90% of available gate space if the repeals went into effect. Talk about limiting competition!

But I live in Missouri and it doesn't affect me either way (I avoid Texas like the plague) but thats my 2cents.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:31 am

I would, however be opposed to WN snapping up 90% of available gate space if the repeals went into effect. Talk about limiting competition!

First, if AA is allowed to monopolize DFW, which they do very well, why should WN be hypocritically regulated? An AA fortress at DFW and a WN fortress at DAL would have a simmilar effect of re-allocating gates at both airports anyway... but without the giant mess of moving assets and schedules around.

Second, giving all the remaining gates at WN would give them a total of 28 gates, compared to the 67 given to AA at DFW. It would also take no fewer than 14 remaining gates for AA to finally compete with WN, this only helps the consumer.

Third, how does it limit competition? No carrier has stated even the slightest interest in DAL. It would cost more money than its worth to invest in DAL, and they could only serve DAL with non-mainline service.

Finally, has WN not been the sole presence at DAL for the last 30 years? Who has been paying to keep facilities modern? Who has paid for airport improvements? Who kept the passenger terminal alive? Oh thats right... WN.
 
Okie
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:31 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages



Here is a overview of DAL

Most of the BN concourse has been converted to other use.


Okie
 
swadispatcher
Posts: 420
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RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:08 am

From what I've read on this subject, DAL only has 150 or so available takeoff/landing spots per day for use.. Does anyone else know of this?

As for the North Concourse, we have first right to use those areas and reconvert them to gates if we want.. the only spots left for other airline use are the 2 CO gates, the 3 AA gates and the Legend terminal which has 10 (I believe).

Regarding flight activity, I think you'd only see nonstops to "major" cities like BWI, MDW, BNA, LAX, OAK, SLC, PHX, MCO and/or TPA.

Personally, I hope the stupid thing gets repealed already.. it's a moronic law to put it mildly..
Maintain 2300 until Boiler, cleared for the VOR-A approach, report BATLE inbound..
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:51 am

So are you suggesting a complete re-allocation of all the gates? How would that be fair? WN has payed the leases on these gates for the last 30 years, paid for multiple airport enhancements, and is the sole reason the passenger terminal at DAL still exists.

Picture this. Let's annouce that DAL is to be closed to all commercial traffic with more than 56 seats. Then WN pulls out, but CO, AA, and others maintain a few gates for their RJs. Maybe they even expand service a bit and occupy more gates.

Then you reopen DAL to all traffic. Only now WN can only get a couple of gates.

Wouldn't you be saying THAT was unfair? Driving airlines out by regulation, and then, later, reopening the airport after a limited service operation had taken over most everything during the "constrained" period?

Because that's exactly what happened. No one wanted to move to DFW at the time. The only reason they did was because the Wright Amendment forced them too. The only reason that WN has had limited competition at DAL has been because of the Wright Amendment.

Simply lifting those restrictions just isn't fair to those who played by the rules.

So yes, go ahead and open DAL, but the gates should be re-bid as they now have a far different value. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not like WN can't afford to pay a premium for those gates and outbid everyone else if they want!

Steve
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:50 pm

Silevin:

Nice try. Nice hypothesis. Too bad you're wrong.

>>Because that's exactly what happened. No one wanted to move to DFW at the time. The only reason they did was because the Wright Amendment forced them too. The only reason that WN has had limited competition at DAL has been because of the Wright Amendment.<<

All of the CAB regulated interstate air carriers signed a more-or-less binding agreement in the late 60s/early 70s to move all of their flight operations to DFW when it opened.

It had something to do with being able to sell the bonds to construct the airport.....nobody wanted to throw money at a sequel to GSW/Amon Carter Field.

Southwest Airlines Co wasn't in operation when this letter got passed around. They had been incorporated, and Rollin King was playing CEO and Kelleher was lawyering and Lamar Muse (the man who said, basically, we'll move to DFW when hades freezes over) wasn't even involved.

I am sure Harding Lawrence over at Braniff told the DFW people, about that time, that Southwest would never commence flight operations and if they did, they wouldn;t last 60 days, so it probably wasn;t worth chasing them down to get them to sign the note.

The Wright Amendment had nothing to do with airlines leaving DAL for DFW. They were contractually (and fiscally) obligated to. It was Judge William Mack Taylor in Southwest Airlines Co v the cities of Dallas, Fort Worth, and the Dallas/Fort Worth Regional Airport Authority that stated that "Southwest Airlines is permitted to serve Love Field so long as Love Field remains open as an airport."

Actually, neither of the cities nor the DFW Board blinked an eye when BN and TT ran some flights in and out of Love in order to compete with Southwest. Silly companies, they should have realized that they couldn't. AA didn't do much better when they tried to co-opt the DFW-AAustin market a few years back.

The Wright Amendment was thrown at Southwest about 5 yrs or so after DFW opened.....about the same time that the Airline Deregulation Act was signed into being......in order to keep Southwest from flying to far-flung places out of Love Field that might harm the business of the two local darling carriers, namely, Braniff and American.

I think it is safe to assume that DFW Airport is large enough and stable enough to withstand any sort of competition from Love Field. Love Field simply isn't big enough to put a dent into DFW.

And the mighty Metroplexus is certainly big enough and self important enough to support two airports. Chicago, South Florida, New Yawk City, Los Angeles, etc etc all do quite fine with multiple airports. Even the tacky coastal malarial swamp town of Houston supports two airports....and nobody in Dallas would ever admit to being second tier to Houston on anything.

What you are apt to see, in this round...is the junking of the Wright Amendment and the implementation of a perimeter rule......maybe flights can go nonstop anyplace within 1000 nm of Dallas Love Field, and thru ticketing beyond that would be permitted.


And if AAmerican is really smAArt, they will support that compromise wholeheartedly. They would be much better off with a small but lucrative (for WN) competing operation over at Love Field than they would with basketloads of the ugly planes dropping in and out of DFW all day. And while Southwest says they don't wish to serve DFW (which is probably true) I can assure you they will not sit idly by while another low fare carrier develops a sizeable presence in their own back yard. If that means going to DFW, they will go to DFW.

Southwest at DFW is probably the lAAst thing American really wants to have happen.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:05 pm

So yes, go ahead and open DAL, but the gates should be re-bid as they now have a far different value.

If it were not for WN... those gates would have zero value  Big grin


Picture this. Let's annouce that DAL is to be closed to all commercial traffic with more than 56 seats. Then WN pulls out, but CO, AA, and others maintain a few gates for their RJs. Maybe they even expand service a bit and occupy more gates.

Then you reopen DAL to all traffic. Only now WN can only get a couple of gates.


What's so unfair about that?

You seem to think that airlines are flocking to return to DAL, when in fact, no major carrier wants/cares about the lousy 14 gates remaining. They are in crap condition and would require pricey rennovation, but for WN, this is much cheaper then opening a new base at DFW. It's a win-win for everyone but AA, and who gives a shAAt about an unprofitable monolith of anti-competitive crAAP out in tAArAAnt county?

Christ look at my flipin screen name and look at my stance on this issue. Having lived in the DFW-area for 99% of my life, you can't comprehend how frustrating it is to see a profitable (maybe somewhat benevolent) airline be held back from fair competition while AA lays their employees off, cuts their salaries, and squashes new innovations to the market, like Legend Airlines.

[Edited 2004-11-14 05:08:01]
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:23 pm

Steve:

Simmer down, ol' boy.

WN has always played "by the rules." Southwest did not move to DFW, because they did not agree to do so (as did all the other carriers who previously served DAL). The issue of whether Southwest can legally serve DAL- at all- has long since been resolved in court (remember Texas International and Braniff International v. Southwest Airlines?).

The Wright Amendment was created as a political animal to reduce competetive pressure on AA in the north Texas marketplace. It is bad policy, and a ridiculous imposition on the air travelers (all of them) in the area.

The imposition of such restrictions on Love Field cannot be reconciled with any form of fairness; no other metropolitan area which has multiple airports has such restructions in place.

"By the rules" is an amusing choice of words; AA's "rules" have always included using its massive market clout and financial power to crush anything resembling competition. What has them so tirqued now? For the first time, they may be facing a competetive service they cannot possibly crush. Southwest is not Vanguard, not Legend. Southwest can buy and sell AA many times over, they just aren't stupid enough to do so.

Bottom line it, folks, except for a few markets, with Delta's departure, AA has *no* meaningful competition at DFW (meaning competition on non-stop flights).

Proof?

Check prices, departing DFW 11/15 (Monday), returning 11/16 (Tuesday);

From DFW to IAD or DCA? $1,785.00 round trip, AA. Lots of cheaper fares, all involving changing planes at a hub somewhere.

Fom DFW to BWI? $267.00 AA, $261.20, AirTran. Both non-stop.

The only difference here is the presence of a well-run, efficient, low-fare carrier in the market. And that is what AA fears.

We consistently pay among the highest airfares in the market thanks to the absolute domination AA has on the marketplace.

AA's problem? They are afraid that, without legislative protection from fair market competition, they cannot compete. That is pathetic. And it remains wrong.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:41 pm

I Think AA does fail to realize that if we (WN) are forced into DFW, that a long and prolonged price war will erupt, ugly on both sides. However, who has the ability (think resources) to withstand a prolonged fare war? Southwest has it in spades. We recently took out a $300 million dollar loan. Why? the interest rate was fixed @ 2%. 2%! that is smaller than inflation, that is how good our credit is right now. Even if we were to go into DFW right now and assault American in all the right spots (DFW-MDW, DFW-MIA, DFW-anywhere on americans flight schedule) we could easily outlast them right down to the last AA flight out of DFW.

So they should realize that letting WN fly full schedule out of DAL wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to happen...
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:51 pm

The imposition of such restrictions on Love Field cannot be reconciled with any form of fairness; no other metropolitan area which has multiple airports has such restructions in place.

I agree. I simply disagree that given the history (and regardless of how you spin it, the fact remains that DAL has been for decades a constrained airport), a re-opening of DAL should be accompanied by a re-opening of bidding for gate leases.

I disagree that AA would not be interested. I notice that AA still has operations at MDW, for example.

I could easily see AA being interested in, and being able to support:

DAL-LAX
DAL-SFO
DAL-LGA
as well as other substantially O&D routes.

Not to mention airlines that have effectively been precluded from being able to utilize DAL due to their route structure. I'm not saying NW *would* be interested, but jetBlue might be, for example. Or Frontier. I believe if the rules are going to be changed, then the playing field should be re-opened.

In truth, Southwest is best prepared for a gate bidding war in any case, so it's unlikely they'd be driven out.  Smile

Steve
 
scotron11
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:23 pm

Lets get the Wright amendment annulled first then argue about who, what and where afterwards.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:51 pm

What legal basis would there be for "bidding" on gates at DAL? Whatever gates Southwest holds leases on at DAL, they hold leases. No other airline is entitled to any of those gates unless there's a specific clause in WN's lease agreement that says the City can put them up for rebidding if the Wrong Amendment disappears.

Good for WN, turning against the foul, anticonsumer Wrong Amendment that simply protects American's high-fare gravy train at consumer expense. This move is way, way overdue. AA's crocodile tears are amusing but irrelevant. It's long past time that the Metroplex (and those of us who fly there) enjoy the same benefits of the LCC revolution as other metro areas.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
dagolden1
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:04 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:26 am

If AA is "so" interested in operating out of DAL, then why aren't they there now?
 
LV
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 6:02 am

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amendment

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:08 am

What is the status with the Legend terminal? Is it still privatly owned or does the airport own it now? What are the chances someone could come in and open up shop there?

Also, will we ever see service to either of the Ft. Worth airports....Mecham or Alliance?

The Wright Ad. was a good move at the time and was needed....but both Dallas and Ft. Worth have grown up since then, plus the end of regulation and the LCC boom has created a much greater demand for air travel in the Metroplex, making the admendment unneeded unless your AA. Addtionally, I think if WN and AA could finally compete on an even playing ground it would only stimulate more travel in the Metroplex creating more jobs and further the economy, much as what happened at BWI and now at PHL with US and WN.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:21 am

What is the status with the Legend terminal? Is it still privatly owned or does the airport own it now? What are the chances someone could come in and open up shop there?

Very little probability of that happening. Legend only had 3 gates and they were in a remote building on the other side of the airport from the passenger terminal. If you look at the overhead picture of DAL in Reply 35, they were somewhere adjacent to the right runway.

If I remember correctly, they can only service the DC-9 as well...

Also, will we ever see service to either of the Ft. Worth airports....Mecham or Alliance?

These have no passenger handeling capabilities in existence... so very slim as well. Alliance is a cargo airport..
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:43 am

If AA is "so" interested in operating out of DAL, then why aren't they there now?

Because of the Wright Amendment, perhaps?

Eliminating the Wright Amendment now without re-opening the airport to competition is nothing more than a land grab by Southwest.

As far as "what basis is there for re-opening the bidding for leases"

-- The end of the Wright Amendment, duh. I'd have a bit more sympathy for Southwest if they had held all the leases and gates they do now prior to the Wright Amendment. *THAT* would say "hey, we've stuck it out for Dallas."

The Legend gates are DC-9 family limited because of their configuration. They *might* be adaptable to 737's, but as I see it, anything else is significant because you'd end up with the nose of the aircraft in the building  Smile

Steve
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Southwest- No Longer "Neutral" On Wright Amend

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:29 am

I'd have a bit more sympathy for Southwest if they had held all the leases and gates they do now prior to the Wright Amendment. *THAT* would say "hey, we've stuck it out for Dallas."

Have you read a single one of the post above? I knew you were ignorant... but shesh get with the program, you're just wasting people's time. You have no grasp for the regional dynamics in the DFW area. I'm going to break this down very easy for you, but if you choose to pull a Soblano and regurgitate thoughless drabble about why gates should be reallocated, then be my guest....

First, DAL has a total of 28 gates. 14 of these have been occupied by WN for three frickin decades. How do you "stick it out for Dallas" any more than that?! CoEX has 2 gates, and 12 gates remain vacant and delepadated. The former terminals of Braniff and AA were torn down as part of an agreement with local residents two years ago.

Second, WN only opperates to Texas and neighboring cities from these gates, but they have 29 daily frequencies to HOU alone. If WN were granted unrestricted rights, they would use the gates they already have by reducing frequencies to HOU, AUS, MSY, ect.

Third, there is nothing stopping AA from the remaining 14 gates at DAL, they are unused and just sitting there getting older. But if the WA were to be lifted, they would require rennovation and outfit for new ticket counters, passenger lounges, ground handeling staff, modern security features, ect. AA doesn't have the money (or the desire) to open a new station 12 miles from their HQ/domestic hub.

Fourth, no sooner than Februrary, AA will have a virtual monopoly on DFW. They currently have 67 gates, not counting American Eagle, will take a dozen gates at the new Terminal D, and will likely take a share of DL's gates. AA will hold 90+ gates with no opposition and no major competition.

Fifth, it would be uneconomical for WN to enter DFW, and likewise, uneconomical for AA to enter DAL. The most efficent way to allow for competition is to open up DAL for all. If AA wants to spend several million dollars to take 12 whole terminals just so they can be raped by WN, they'd do it. They know better, and they will avoid DAL like the plauge. Likewise, DFW is too large for WN to opperate efficently, you frequently must taxi for 20 minutes just to get from the runways to the terminals.

Pitting AA and WN together in the same airport would hurt both airlines, allowing them to opperate in their own spheres of influence would be healthy competition. Again, if AA wants those gates they can take them in a second, WN has no immediate plans for them. But suggesting that WN should be required to forfit a single one of the gates they have paid for over the last 3 decades, just so AA won't have to clean-up the 12 remaining, you are f-ucking insane.

The Legend gates are DC-9 family limited because of their configuration. They *might* be adaptable to 737's, but as I see it, anything else is significant because you'd end up with the nose of the aircraft in the building

The are insular from the main passenger terminal. WN would have *zero* desire for these, they are across the northern runway off Lemmon Avenue... Legend passengers could never find them, why would WN want them?

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