chrisa330
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AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:01 am

15 EMB175 with delivery beginning July 2005. Configuration of 9 J and 64 Y class seats.

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1211122583&view=13213-0&Start=0/
 
Tennisace
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:57 am

Okay, is this a totallly new order or were 175's part of the original big order? This doesn't make much sense 'cuz I thought they have ordered some CRJ705's as well which sit about 75 passengers or so with dual class. Unless all the CRJ's are going to JAZZ, and all the ERJ's are for Mainline. Still makes you go hmmmmmmmm...............
 
slawko
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:00 am

The 705's are going to Jazz.. the Jungle-jets are for the mainline...and this is a new order...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:09 am

705's and 175's? This makes no sense.

Milton's fleet planning is a joke.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
PacificWestern
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:16 am

Was that a typo Yyz717? Did you perhaps mean "Milton is a joke"?
 
slawko
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:26 am

I'll a little confused at you're comments... the 705's are going to Jazz they are not ever going to be part of the mainline operation so what's the problem?? Jazz isn't air canada, their is no economical reason to operate the same fleet at Jazz and Mainline, if their were then Jazz would be flying a318's. Infact it makes more sense to do what AC is doing, they are sending all of the bombardier aircraft to Jazz, and keeping the two jungle-jets in the mainline. Should the need/reason ever arise to sell off Jazz you wont be splitting up a fleet of CRJ's, you have two totally independant types of equipment. I'm sure you'll have an anti AC reply to that but I think it's a valid enough choice, the ERJ's will be configured differenlyt and be used for a different purpose then the CRJ's.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:45 am

While the feds pay lipservice to the notion of stopping to protect AC, as if they had done the refinancing instead of the shareholders, the fact is they could make AC's life miserable if it hadn't ordered some Bombardier aircraft. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.

The feds are out there prioritizing the international bilateral negotiations that would give AC the rights it needs to launch new international routes. I may be naive, but I am not at all certain another president of AC could have resisted the pressure from Ottawa to buy only from Bombardier, when in fact AC probably wanted to go all Embraer. Mind you, the Teplitsky mediation/arbitration would have ensured that even had AC ordered only from EMB or only from BBD, that the order would have been split between mainline and Jazz. In the end, what really matters is the price AC is paying in both cases, the terms of labor agreements applicable to both aircraft types, and the routes AC assigns each aircraft.

That's far more important in the long run than whether AC ordered from one or two manufacturers.



 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:24 am

Jazz isn't air canada, their is no economical reason to operate the same fleet at Jazz and Mainline,

Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous.

the fact is they could make AC's life miserable if it hadn't ordered some Bombardier aircraft.

The Cdn govt recently agreed to back the loan to fund the AC CRJ purchase. So once again Cdn tax payers are supporting AC.

The feds are out there prioritizing the international bilateral negotiations that would give AC the rights it needs to launch new international routes.

The feds should be working to improve bilaterals for ALL cdn airlines, not just AC.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
planemaker
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:20 pm

"Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous."

Yyz717, what is even funnier it that the CRJ705s has virtually no Mx commonality with the CRJ200s yet the CRJ705 shares the CF34-8 with the E175.  Laugh out loud

BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
slawko
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:20 pm

"Yes, there is. Mx and operational commonality would ensue. An order for 705's and 175's from AC group airlines operating over the same networks is simply.....ludicrous."

Jazz and ACA MX are two different organization's, Not quite sure what you mean about Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent. This is common through the US where you have a number of airlines operating both types in their fleet. While they have the same number of seats (or close) both airplanes are assigned to two different types of operations.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:42 pm

Jazz and ACA MX are two different organization's,

But they could achieve efficiencies with a common fleet.

Operationally, but crews working on the aircraft work for two different companies and do not cross over, only in the major hubs would you have an ACA ramp, or Ground Passenger Agent working a jazz flight and even then there is minimal training for those employees, the aircraft are dispatched from two different operations centres in two different cities at two different companies owned by the same parent.

Yawn. They are BOTH AC companies! They could achieve efficiencies by work sharing! You are making escuses for continued inefficiecies.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:07 pm

Yes they could you are perfectly correct, but unfortunatly the reality is that the labour contracts, working agreements, and organizational structure is such that they CAN NOT! And so given that they are still two separate operations with different requirements, different employees, all owned by the same parent company. Operating a fleet of CRJ's in one operation and a Fleet of ERJ's in the other would cost them about the same as if they had all of one or all of the other. The pays scales would still be different, the MX would still be different employees would stillbe different and costs would still be different, even though they are all the same company!
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
EnviroTO
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:32 pm

BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.

Chapter 1: Putting the BRJ-X on ice.
Chapter 2: Issues with Amtrak equipment dragged in front of the public.
Chapter 3: Sell Recreational Division.
Chapter 4: Las Vegas monorail shutdown.
Chapter 5: Unwritten but I hope its a little more positive!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:44 pm

Yes they could you are perfectly correct, but unfortunatly the reality is that the labour contracts, working agreements, and organizational structure is such that they CAN NOT!

So change the organizational stucture and make it happen. Isn't that what Milton is paid to do?

Ordering 175s and 705s is idiocy of the highest order ito airline efficiency and fleet planning.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:03 pm

I am sure Embraer offered AC a very attractive financial package on these planes, especially since their orderbook was seriously hurting after their original launch customer (and only customer to date) Jet Airways backed out of their deal due to financial difficulties.

Cheap planes can almost always offset a deficiency in operational efficiency. I'm surprised that a veteran of the industry like Yyz717 didn't notice this while the 21-year old student like Slawko did. Maybe Neil is getting forgetful and careless in his old age....

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:11 pm

Cheap planes can almost always offset a deficiency in operational efficiency.

You can't say that Sean. Depends heavily on the in-service time period vs the amortization costs. I'm surprised you would make such a blanket statement Sean.

I'm surprised that a veteran of the industry like Yyz717 didn't notice this while the 21-year old student like Slawko did. Maybe Neil is getting forgetful and careless in his old age....

Chuckle. Nice projection Sean.  Smile
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alessandro
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:39 pm

Seem like they cost 28 MUS$ each see http://www.embraer.com/english/content/imprensa/press_release.asp?press_release_id=889&ano=2004
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
aad665
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:23 pm

Hi,

It is always wierd the way poeple outside BBD analyse that company. I am an ex-exec at BBD. I left this summer after years there. I know very well BBD Capital, BBD Transport (Train) and BBD HQ.

-------
From EnviroTO:
BTW, in case you haven't read it yet, Moody's downgraded BBD Inc. and BBD Capital debt rating 2 notches to junk status with a "negative outlook." The stock hit $2.50.

Chapter 1: Putting the BRJ-X on ice.
Chapter 2: Issues with Amtrak equipment dragged in front of the public.
Chapter 3: Sell Recreational Division.
Chapter 4: Las Vegas monorail shutdown.
Chapter 5: Unwritten but I hope its a little more positive!
------

1. The downdrage was well anticipated at BBD HQ. It is a no-surprise event. I don't say it is a good thing. Life will be easier with a triple AAA but it will not stop any project.

2. Chapter 1: It was a mistake and lack of vision. Agree with you. They beleive that CRJ-900 will sell like hot cake.
3. Chapter 2: This is non-event in BBD Transport life. North-Americain poeple focus on N-Am. news. At that time, we had huge trouble with Virgin train and others delivrance in UK. That was a big issue for BBD Transport. (it is now resolve). Still, N-A newspaper was only talking about Amtrak. It was peanuts compares to UK problems.
4. Chapter 3: We were on hedge of CF issue. It resolved a short term CF issue. It had no synergy between BRP and BBD.
5. Chapter 4: Same as point 2. NA operations for BBD Transport is only 15% of revenues. Revenues from Germany only is bigger than whole NA. Still, a non-event.

The biggest mistake was to put on ice the BRJ-X. BBD has no product to compete with Embraer on RJ. However, they have a very good portofolio of Business aircraft.

aad665
 
hardiwv
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AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:31 pm

"However, they have a very good portofolio of Business aircraft. "

And so does EMBRAER, with its Legacy.

And what more? EMBRAER is also doing well in the defense market.

It seems that slowly EMBRAER is finally winning the battle against BBD, a battle which EMBRAER should have won long ago, were it not for Canandian public money.

Rgs,
Hardi

side note: anyone knows any news of the intention of BBD trains to construct a manufacturing plant in Brazil?
 
planemaker
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:10 am

"Ordering 175s and 705s is idiocy of the highest order to airline efficiency and fleet planning."

You are correct in a logical and a "sane" world... which is not the case with AC and the political environment it operates in. By ordering the CRJ705, AC has effectively introduced a different aircraft type into its fleet.

As has already been pointed out, the CRJ705 has no LRU & virtually no Mx commonality with the CRJ200, and requires a different simulator for pilot training. On the other hand, the E175 has 89% LRU commonality with the E190, and 100% cockpit and flying qualities commonality.

And from a fleet planning perspective, with a "rump order" of CRJ705s, AC has lost out on the opportunity to provide a seamless and superior pax experience from mainline to Jazz.

"I am sure Embraer offered AC a very attractive financial package on these planes..."

AC would have had a even better package if they had originally ordered the E175s instead of the the CRJ705s.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:04 am

AC would have had a even better package if they had originally ordered the E175s instead of the the CRJ705s.

How do you know. A year later, Embraer is still looking for a launch customer for the 175. It was the only model without a confirmed order. AC could have picked up 170s, perhaps in the aftermarket, as some American carriers seek to reschedule orders. The fact AC took the 175 instead of 170s, which would have been perfectly adequate for most missions, suggests that Air Canada played off Embraer against Embraer.


 
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TupolevTu154
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:24 am

Im really confused, I thought they were near bankrupt, now they are buying tons of new aircraft? Then a new paint scheme? They delayed their A345 deliveries aswell, can someone please explain for me?
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:31 am

Air Canada has emerged from bankruptcy restructuring with $1.1 billion in new equity and financing for their new regional jets from General Electric. Air Canada, after making an operating profit of about US$200 million in the most recent quarter, now has cash of about $1.9 million on hand, plus the GE financing.

The regional jet purchases were always part of the restructuring/new business plan.

The deferral of 345s occured at the outset of the bankruptcy process in April 2003. Later, when the airline was much further along in implementing its new plan - after it had negotiated various concessions - it revisited the issue of the two 345s, which Airbus had not remarketed. It isn't clear if those two planes were being held for AC, or whether there was no market at the time for them.
 
EuroLeb
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:59 am

Hold on you guys. Fleet commonality? I'm not so sure that's all it takes to base a decision on introducing a new aircraft type into an airline's fleet. Plus, as was pointed out earlier, the CRJ-705's will go to Air Canada's JAZZ subsidiary, which in essence, is a separate entity from Air Canada. I also heard that Air Canada will gradually start phasing out the turboprop fleet currently operating under the JAZZ brand. And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I doubt it if there were no significant benefit sharing beween these 2 aircraft types.

Who knows what Mr. Milton's the overall startegy is? Some people here have been shouting insulting terms such as "idiocy" and so on, thinking that they know more about the airline industry than Mr. Milton himself. We all know very well that, due to competitive reasons, Air Canada can only reveal minimal information concerning its long term startegy and underlying "deals" behind these new aircraft orders.



[Edited 2004-11-13 18:03:42]
Calgary is my home...
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:33 am

It's also good to remember that the separate fleet type consideration is blunted somewhat by the fact Bombardier's assembly plant is right next door to Air Canada's maintenance base on Cote de Liesse Road in Montreal, and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance. When AC needs parts or training for the 705, it's all next door. It doesn't have to stock a large inventory of rotables. That's why the CRJs are maintained by AC in Montreal - even though the next largest plane handled by Montreal heavy maintenance is the A330. (A319/320/321 go to Winnipeg, and 767s, I believe, to Vancouver). Furthermore, the 705 uses CF34-8C5 engines, while the EMB uses the virtually identical CF34-8E. There is near total parts commonality between the two models. That would also apply to some other systems throughout the EMB and CRJ705 aircraft.





 
planemaker
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:12 am

And what about the CRJ-200? some people suggested here that it's quite different from its younger sister (CRJ-700). I'm not an airline expert, but I doubt it if there were no significant benefit sharing beween these 2 aircraft types.

There are no LRU and systems commonality and effectively no Mx commonality. And the flying qualities and systems are different such that pilots for the two aircraft cannot train in the same simulator.

"We all know very well that, due to competitive reasons, Air Canada can only reveal minimal information concerning its long term startegy and underlying "deals" behind these new aircraft orders."

It has nothing to do with what you posted. It is really very simple why the AC choice to get both CRJ705s and E175s is illogical -- the E175 is a superior aircraft to the CRJ705, and the addition of the CRJ705 is effectively adding a different type to the fleet.

"How do you know. A year later, Embraer is still looking for a launch customer for the 175. It was the only model without a confirmed order."

There are two points that renders this point moot. First, the E170 and the E175 have over 95% design commonality. Second, Embraer was only going to develop 2 E-jet models but, for the same budget, were able to develop 4 due to the timely devaluation of the Reial and the very high degree of commonality between models.

"AC could have picked up 170s, perhaps in the aftermarket, as some American carriers seek to reschedule orders. The fact AC took the 175 instead of 170s, which would have been perfectly adequate for most missions, suggests that Air Canada played off Embraer against Embraer."

First, AC mainline would not be flying an aircraft smaller than Jazz's CRJ705s. Second, the E170 CASM with mainline crews would be very high. Third, as indicated earlier, the very high commonality between the E170 and E175 negates AC playing off one model against the other.

It's also good to remember that the separate fleet type consideration is blunted somewhat by the fact Bombardier's assembly plant is right next door to Air Canada's maintenance base on Cote de Liesse Road in Montreal.

Actually, that plant is only for the CRJ200 (and the Challenger series.) The CRJ700/900 plant is out at Mirabel.  Big grin

"...and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance"

AC will be getting their own E190 simulator anyway... which will also be used for the E175.

It doesn't have to stock a large inventory of rotables.

AC will be stocking rotables for the E190 anyway... which has 89% commonality with the E175.

Bottom line - the CRJ705s effectively represent adding a different fleet type to the AC/Jazz fleet, and all the higher costs that having a different type entails. Furthermore, considering the superiority of the E175 it truly does not make any sense at all!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:10 am

The Cdn govt recently agreed to back the loan to fund the AC CRJ purchase. So once again Cdn tax payers are supporting AC.

The Canadian government is only backing the loan. In the event that AC Jazz stops paying for their jets for one reason or another, they will pay. How is this any different from the Canadian government backing the loans to all the other airlines buying Bombardier aircraft like NW?

Jazz is a separate company. The CRJ-705s are a lighter aircraft than the ERJ-175s. With the lower paid workforce, I'm sure there are savings.

Lets face it. People will bash AC whenever they can. Nothing will ever be good enough for them. If they don't make money, they criticize. If they make a profit, they ask why it wasn't more and blame Milton again. I think blaming Milton about everything is some sort of fetish for YYZ717  Big grin
 
sebring
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:49 am

"...and that Canadair has its training centre - with several simulators - within walking distance"

AC will be getting their own E190 simulator anyway... which will also be used for the E175.


Maybe, I haven't seen the order yet. What is true is that it doesn't have to engage in that overhead for the CRJ-705, irrespective of what it does for the 175-195. You also sidestepped the fact of engine commonality between the CRJ-705 and EMB-175. And notwithstanding how many platforms Embraer wanted to built at the outset, it has a 175, it is going through the expense of certifying it, and it had no buyers for it. That is a fact. And you say there is an extra fleet type "with all the costs that entails", but since there is engine commonality, there is ready access to just in time sourcing of parts - which makes stockage costs a non-issue - and since Jazz pilots are seniority paid and not paid according to aircraft type, it's freaking hard to see where all those costs are. It's not in having an extra simulator for the 705, or in having a large parts inventory for the 705, or in having different engines for the 705. If AC thought the CRJ-900 was a better aircraft than the EMB-190, it might not have bought any Embraer product. It was the 190 which drove the exercise, and once the Embraer product was in, the 175 was not an issue at mainline because of the 89% commonality. But you have failed to demonstrate why it is such a significant cost to add the 705 at Jazz.

Furthermore, there are always advantages in playing suppliers against each other, and in Canada, there will always be reasons - and advantages - to buy a Canadian product. The Quebec government, for example gives AC a contract for regional flying within the province that effectively subsidizes rural and remote air services. There are myriad ways AC can also be thanked (or whacked) by the federal government.


 
planemaker
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:46 am

What is true is that it doesn't have to engage in that [simulator] overhead for the CRJ-705, irrespective of what it does for the 175-195.

For the small 705 fleet I doubt that AC will get a sim. However, they are still dependent on BBD's sim schedule and obviously still have to pay BBD for sim time. On the other hand, if AC had only ordered the E175 all training would be conducted in-house on the same sim.

"And notwithstanding how many platforms Embraer wanted to built at the outset, it has a 175, it is going through the expense of certifying it, and it had no buyers for it."

1)-The E175 hasn't even yet been certified. 2)-The certification costs are marginal. 3)-EMB had a customer for the E175, and when the deal didn't go forward it simply shuffled E175 certification priority to No. 3 from No. 2. 4)-Now AC has ordered it. 5)-Just what is the point you are trying to make?

You also sidestepped the fact of engine commonality between the CRJ-705 and EMB-175.

No I didn't as I thought that you would have known that there is only basic core commonality between the CRJ705 and E175 because of the differences due to engine mounting. It should be obvious that you can't swap engines or accessories and that a single fleet of E175s would be far more cost efficient.

FYI, there are even several external engine and internal core differences between even the CRJ700 and CRJ900 - 3rd stage vortex generator, HS188 combuster, HPT cooling system, S3/S4 LPT blades, LPT cooling system, engine config plug, chevron nozzle...

It is really hard to believe that you do not understand the cost benefits of a single aircraft type - in terms of logistics, parts (contrary to your misbegotten belief, CRJ705 parts will still have to be stocked and all orders have to go through BRAD's spares support located in Michigan!), maintenance, aircraft scheduling, etc. It is really quite basic.

"If AC thought the CRJ-900 was a better aircraft than the EMB-190, it might not have bought any Embraer product."

Impossible!! The CRJ900 is... the CRJ705 but with fewer seats.  Laugh out loud The CRJ900 wasn't even in the running because the CRJ900 (86-seats, OWE 47,500 lbs.) isn't even remotely close to the E190 (104-seats, OWE 59,500 lbs.)

The bottom line is that the E175 is a far superior aircraft for passengers. AC not only lost out on not having the various benefits of fleet commonality and seamless pax service but also lost out on the pricing benefit of a single larger order for E175s.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
accargo
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:56 am

Planemaker, one thing you don't seem to understand is that the BBD products are going to Jazz and the Embraer products are going to Mainline. Part of the business plan is that Jazz is a SEPARATE company from AC. Separate staff/ Separate bases/ Separate mtce.

You have no idea of what is exactly written into the contract between AC and BBD. It could in fact have provisions for sim time and a schedule built into it. This has happened in the past. But the truth is neither you nor I know, so you can't make a blanket statement like " they are still dependent on BBD's sim schedule and obviously still have to pay BBD for sim time"

It is really hard to believe that you do not understand the cost benefits of a single aircraft type - in terms of logistics, parts (contrary to your misbegotten belief, CRJ705 parts will still have to be stocked and all orders have to go through BRAD's spares support located in Michigan!), maintenance, aircraft scheduling, etc. It is really quite basic.

I'd like to see more info on this Brads spares support and how it affects Jazz. Jazz will operate Dh-8 and all BBJ products, AC Mainline will operate Embraer Airbus and Boeing.

The bottom line is that the E175 is a far superior aircraft for passengers. AC not only lost out on not having the various benefits of fleet commonality and seamless pax service but also lost out on the pricing benefit of a single larger order for E175s.

You have no idea what kind of deal AC got from Embraer, so you are just blowing smoke to support your argument about pricing.

 
planemaker
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RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:11 pm

"Part of the business plan is that Jazz is a SEPARATE company from AC."

Of course, that is why Robert Milton cuts the Jazz 70-seat aircraft order in half... and a month later Robert Milton orders the same number of 70-seaters for AC mainline.

Oh, and BTW, AE, Comair, Pinnacle, etc are all "SEPARATE companies" from AA, DL, NW, etc. I guess now they'll all copy Milton and have mainline fly the same capacity aircraft as their "SEPARATE company" regional feeders.

"one thing you don't seem to understand is that the BBD products are going to Jazz and the Embraer products are going to Mainline."

Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series!

"so you can't make a blanket statement like " they are still dependent on BBD's sim schedule and obviously still have to pay BBD for sim time"

You're right... Jazz will get all the sim time they want from BBD... for free and for the life of the aircraft. When Jazz calls, BBD is just going to kick all their customers off their scheduled sim time just to satisfy Jazz.

"so you are just blowing smoke to support your argument about pricing."

Gee, let me think about it... if an airline orders double the number of aircraft from a manufacturer... you're right... the price per aircraft increases.


It seems like you've overdosed watching the new Celine Dion ad!  Wink/being sarcastic
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:54 am

You're right... Jazz will get all the sim time they want from BBD... for free and for the life of the aircraft. When Jazz calls, BBD is just going to kick all their customers off their scheduled sim time just to satisfy Jazz.

Planemaker, that is the dumbest comment I have ever heard. Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Did you not read what Accargo wrote?
It could in fact have provisions for sim time and a schedule built into it.

He never implied JAZZ will "kick all their customers off their scheduled sim time to satisfy JAZZ."

Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series!

Yes, that was an intelligent comment. Give me a break.

As Accargo said, we don't know what the contract stipulates, however making comments like these just for the sake of arguing is a waste of space on this message board.

You seem to know all the answers, why don't you submit your application for President and CEO of ACE?

-Brandon

 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:42 am

AC7E7, obviously you don't understand sarcasm, hence your vacuous statements.  Laugh out loud
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:45 am

Though I liked your comment about overdosing on the Celine ad.  Big grin

-Brandon
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:54 am


Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series!


Good comment, too bad it shows your lack of knowledge about JAZZ and AC Mainline.

You're right... Jazz will get all the sim time they want from BBD... for free and for the life of the aircraft. When Jazz calls, BBD is just going to kick all their customers off their scheduled sim time just to satisfy Jazz.

This is not what I said, once more, and please read slowly, the contract may have provisions that include sim time and other training and a set schedule built into it. Neither you or I know what details are in the contract.You posted as if your version was the only way it could be (they are still dependent on BBD's sim schedule and obviously still have to pay BBD for sim time
I merely put forth another possible option. You don't have a strong rebuttal so you resort to sarcasm.

Your another of the list of members that just love to bash AC no matter what. bye bye.




[Edited 2004-11-14 21:07:25]
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:12 am

AC bashing seems to be a national sport in Canada and especially here at airliners.net. Even more so, I've had enough of the Milton bashing. It would not have mattered who was running the airline, it would have fallen into bankruptcy protection anyway. Good thing it did too. It needed a slimming down. Milton is the best man for the job right now. He knows how to cut costs, and he's reorganized the company into separate entities which was a great move, and there is still more to be done.

I don't work for the airline, BTW.

People here talk about how AC management is incompetent, however the once "rising star" called Westjet IMHO has crooked management that should be jailed immediately. What a bunch of crooks. I'm not criticizing the employees at all, just Beddoe et al. I have no problem with competition, just do it honestly. Instead of criticizing his competition, bed should just shut up and run his airline. He seems insecure, maybe someone should give him a hug. Planemaker? YYZ717?

-Brandon







[Edited 2004-11-14 23:12:34]
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:20 am

Gee, I just can't wait to see AC mainline flying ERJ-145s, and Jazz flying the C-Series!

"Good comment, too bad it shows your lack of knowledge about JAZZ and AC Mainline."


My sarcastic comment has nothing to do with a lack of knowledge of JAZZ and AC Mainline and everything to with your statement -- "BBD products are going to Jazz and the Embraer products are going to Mainline," that you use to justify the illogical... that JAZZ and AC Mainline will both fly 70-seat aircraft!

As I pointed out in Reply 30... AE, Comair, Pinnacle, etc. are all "SEPARATE companies" from AA, DL, NW, etc. and not a single mainline flies the same capacity aircraft as their "SEPARATE company" regional feeders.

"This is not what I said, once more, and please read slowly, the contract may have provisions that include sim time and other training and a set schedule built into it." ...I merely put forth another possible option. You don't have a strong rebuttal so you resort to sarcasm.

I have read all your responses "slowly" but you just don't get it (perhaps you haven't followed the thread?), so I resorted to sarcasm to illustrate how illogical your retort to my post is.

FYI, your "option" is an industry standard when a new aircraft type is introduced into a fleet. A limited number of pilot and mechanic training is always included but only with the initial aircraft deliveries. And guess what... Embraer will be doing the same with the initial E190s and E175s too.

So my very simple point that you have failed to grasp is that for the rest of the CRJ705 fleet, and for the life of all the CRJR705s (at least the next 10 years), "they are still dependent on BBD's sim schedule and obviously still have to pay BBD for sim time." On the other hand, as I posted in my Reply 28, if AC had only ordered the E175, instead of E175s and CRJ705s, all training would be conducted in-house on the E190 sim.

So what exactly don't you understand about this?

"Your another of the list of members that just love to bash AC no matter what."

I guess from your comment that the truth hurts. (That was joke!  Wink/being sarcastic )

Aacargo, just how does agreeing with the rational point that it is indeed illogical for both AC Mainline and AC JAZZ to fly the same capacity aircraft make me an AC basher?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: AC Orders 15 Embraer 175 Aircraft

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:00 pm

I think too much focus has been given to the term "capacity" in this debate. The 705 & the 175, while sharing almost indentifcal capacity, have vastly different mission profiles and cabins. One is a regional jet (just step into the cabin to see, PTV or not!) and the other, while manufactured by a company known for regional jets, is NOT a regional jet.

Large cabin, large cabin storage capacity, large belly storage all contribute to that "mainline" feel on the 175 that the 705 just does not match. I just don't see the 175 and the 705 being used on any of the same types of routes. If AC sees places in their route network that would work better for one aircraft over the other, more power to them for getting the aircraft best suite for the route.

Another example is the 340-300 and the 340-500; both have very similar capacities, yet have remarkably different mission profiles, allowing a peaceful coexistance.

If the 175 and 705 end up operating interchangeably on the same routes, then I'll eat my words here.
buhh bye