CaptOveur
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Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:52 am

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009162

Some Excerpts:

"About one and a half hours into the flight, the flight attendant made an announcement requesting a doctor or nurse," he said. Then she gathered up the airliner's medical equipment and an oxygen bottle and headed toward the cockpit.

The co-pilot was having a seizure."...

"The 737's pilot, now without a co-pilot, decided to divert to Colorado Springs Airport. The flight attendant told him about Colonel Neumann's experience as a test pilot.

"You'll do," the captain told the colonel. So Colonel Neumann moved from coach to better than first class. Despite being new to the 737 airframe, Colonel Neumann said he helped the pilot run checklists and land the plane."


I am surprised nobody jumped on this article yet. If someone already has just delete the topic.

I am also surprised that in the current era of mindless security this was allowed to happen. The helpful passenger will probably be put on a no fly list and heavily interrogated by the department of homeland security.

[Edited 2004-11-14 20:53:10]
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:54 am

Wow! Impressive to be sure. Sounds like something out of a low-budget Hollywood flick!

Anyway, big props to the USAF! Yeah baby!!! Big grin

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
andz
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:58 am

Isn't this every aspiring pilot's dream? I wonder what kind of seizure the co-pilot had, surely any underlying conditions should have been detected or disclosed at his regular medical?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
FinnWings
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:13 am

I really don't understand why the captain took someone who wasn't familiar with the B737 to the cockpit. The flight crew is trained to handle the aircraft in all circumstances including single pilot situations. Even Colonel Neumann was experienced pilot he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.

Regards,
FinnWings
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:15 am

Something isn't adding up here. An hour and a half into a IAD-LAX flight isn't going to be anywhere near Colorado Springs. It's over 1,400 miles between IAD and COS. Does anybody have any other information on this? Also, American operated 737-800's on this route, no other carrier operated 737's on this route.
 
United4everDEN
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:17 am

What airline? I cannot find any other sources.
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:25 am

Im sure the colonel being a pilot himself was of some use. if the captn had flipped out with a seizure you can bet the old military man would have found a way to have gotten her down
i can see for 80 miles
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:25 am

Considering the source I doubt it is BS, but they could possibly be wrong on the type of airplane.


Also, if you notice the pilot wanted the second person to help him with the checklists (and maybe the radios). Why not make your life a little easier if you are flying?
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Matt D
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:29 am

Yeah I agree this is every wannabe pilots (and flight sim junkies) wet dream.

That being said, in a pinch, who are you going to take if you need some assistance?

1. Someone who has flight experiance, even if not on the type being flown?

2. Someone who has NO flight experiance, or no one at all?
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:36 am

In defense of the captain, I think he made the right decision.

I'm sure he's been trained on single pilot situations, but I bet it isn't something that is as emphasized as other emergencies, like engine outs or depressurizations.

As a pilot on an airliner, captain or first officer, if I'm in a single pilot situation and I have someone that is a not just a pilot, but a test pilot, and military on board, of course I'm going to bring him up to help! As a test pilot, he is very comfortable in new aircraft and being military its a lot safer than bringing random Joe up front. I've spoke to a few airline pilots who share this opinion.

This is a great example of CRM. As a crew your resources don't end at that door, you have FA's and passengers that can be of great help as well.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:37 am

I don't think it matters that the other pilot wasn't type certified and I would hope that the pilot checked that he was a colonel and pilot before letting him in the cockpit. An extra set of eyes is always useful in the cockpit. You don't need to be type certified to read the checklist. It's not as if the captain handed him the controls and told him to fly. I feel bad for the co-pilot though... I would imagine this could be a career ending health problem. I wish him the best of luck.
 
travatl
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:26 am

I'm curious. At the bottom of the article, which I think is probably rumor from days of yore at best, it states Courtesy of Air Force Space Command News Service, additionally, the article is written by a Master Seargent from the "21st Space Wing Public Affairs".

What is the Air Force Space Command?

Travis
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:37 am

"What is the Air Force Space Command?"

They deal with satellites, ICBM's, etc...they are located at bases mainly in the western US...Vandenberg...FE Warren, Peterson, etc.

Greg
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SATL382G
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:40 am

What is Air Force Space Command. As the name suggests it's the Air Force Command that runs USAF space assets. Space Command wrote the story because the aircraft landed at a Space Command airfield (dual use) and the co-pilot was attended to by a Space Command ambulance crew. That the pax who read the checklists was USAF only added some frosting. Note that he intends to log "2 or 3 tenths" of time on this type. That's about 15 minutes, just enough time to read the checklists to the Capt.

Totally believable story.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:40 am

"What is the Air Force Space Command?"

Google is a wonderful thing http://www.peterson.af.mil/hqafspc/

"the article, which I think is probably rumor from days of yore at best,"

Yeah, we can't trust wire services, especially the AFnews service, we know how they lie.  Yeah sure
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
travatl
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:59 am

Thanks for the info - I just didn't know what space command was. You've answered my question. I still think the story is untrue. This would have been HUGE news.

I mean we're talking about a commercial airliner making an emergency landing (news story);a commercial airliner with an incapacitated pilot (big news story); a commercial airliner making a landing somewhere OTHER than a commercial airport (a real big news story - remember the NWA flt in the midwest last year); and of course introduction to the flight deck of someone NOT on the flight crew to assist and aide in approach and landing (HUGE STORY).

I'm not staying this never happened. I'm saying it's more likely that it probably happened on a convair propliner 45 years ago.

I've emailed at friends at AA and UA, and they both say they've heard nothing of the sort - can anybody from ANY airline out there cooberate this? I've worked for airlines for 15 years, and in that time when a story a 10th of the magnitude of this one occurs, it spreads through the industry like wildfire. All I'm asking is for another source to verify it.

Travis
 
mav75
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:41 am

"This is a great example of CRM. As a crew your resources don't end at that door, you have FA's and passengers that can be of great help as well."


I agree with TheGreatChecko. CRM involves a use of ALL resources available to you, both on and off the aircraft. And if an active-duty AF Lt. Col. happened to be on board to lend his flight experience to the situation, the Captain was certainly justified in putting that to work for him. Nowhere in the article did it say the Lt. Col. did a perfect three point landing exactly 1000 feet down the threshold while whistling Dixie. All he did was run checkists with the Captain. Hell, I'm qualified to do that and I'm only a dispatcher!

And Travatl, COS is a commercial airport with scheduled airline service. It's not DEN, but it still counts.

 
bennett123
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:10 am


Did you ever see a film called Airplane back in 1980.

If he could do it...
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:35 am

FinnWings,
I disagree with your comment "he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.". If he was a test pilot, he'd have a much better idea of what to do up front than a lot of people. Just reading out checklist items would have assisted the Captain a great deal, and you don't exactly need to be a rocket scientist to do that, as i'm sure you're aware!  Smile

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:36 am

a commercial airliner making a landing somewhere OTHER than a commercial airport (a real big news story - remember the NWA flt in the midwest last year)

Mouse-over this airport code:

COS
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:44 am

>>>I really don't understand why the captain took someone who wasn't familiar with the B737 to the cockpit. The flight crew is trained to handle the aircraft in all circumstances including single pilot situations. Even Colonel Neumann was experienced pilot he wasn't type rated for the B737 and therefore couldn't offer any important help for the captain.

The article said he had KC135 time, so you can't get much closer to the cockpit of a 737 than that....  Big grin

The 737 is not a single-pilot aircraft, so the addition of someone to help with the radios, running checklists, and spotting traffic was a very prudent move by the captain here. If you have someone onboard with those kind of credentials, why not make use of them?

Ditto on hoping that the F/O's medical deal isn't a career ender....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:50 am

Folks,

COS is a dual use airfield meaning that it has both military and commercial aircraft operations.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
fspilot747
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:59 am

Good to know he was having such a memoriable blast while the Co-Pilot was having a possibly life-threatening seizure. This story is definitely weird. How could the Captain have proof that this guy is who he said he was, and not some lunatic?


FSP
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:03 am

okay okay.. you can't tell me that this isn't the dream of all us non pilots? Of course, in your 'dream', you land the plane, and both pilots are rescued and saved after you land...

Of course, I don't mean that someone intentionally gets hurt in my 'dream' but, I'm sure we all dream that we are 'forced' to land an airliner  Big grin
Wow.

Cool story though!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
AAR90
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:20 am

Don't know the specific details about what may have/have not happened in the aircraft, but...
--------------------
-0149/09 N3CN IAD-LAX LNDD COS ACCT F/O XPRNCD SEIZURE. EMGY DCLRD. LNDD W/O INCDNT. F/O RMVD TO HOSP. FLT CNLD. PSGRS PROT ON UA.
--------------------
and...
--------------------
NS/149/9/IAD«
149/09 B8 N3CN FROM 1382/08 IN 2247/08 AS OF 14NOV04/2009
STA SKD LATEST GATE S/R
DEP IAD 0830/09 OUT 0836/09 D12
ARV COS 1017/09 IN 1023/09 TCAS OPN
BASE SEAT SEN NAME EMP SEQ RMKS LAN
LAX -CA **** {privacy deletions} **** ***
LAX -FO ***** {privacy deletions} **** *** SICK R
--------------------
I think the "sick" notation is a bit of an understatement.  Wink/being sarcastic The flight's time-line (as reported) is probably an hour or more off --1.5hrs would put the flight in the vacinity of IOW, not COS.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:20 am

The helpful passenger will probably be put on a no fly list and heavily interrogated by the department of homeland security.

Ummm...no!
The man probably showed his military ID and said he was a test pilot. If it was some average Joe who had no proof, but said "I'm a pilot", it would be diferent.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
SATL382G
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:31 am

Many airline pilots are prior military or serving in the reserve. As ex-military myself I can tell that I usually can tell when I'm speaking to someone who is military and I can also generally differentiate between enlisted & officer. I believe most career military would agree.

Also it's possible that this passenger was traveling in uniform. A knowledgeable person could get some idea of his qualifications from his wings, decorations, rank, etc.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
2H4
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:36 am

Jeeeeeez.....given the threads this week, perhaps we should create a forum solely for questioning the actions (and PA announcements) of experienced airline pilots.

 Insane


2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
AAR90
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:00 pm

...solely for questioning the actions (and PA announcements) of experienced airline pilots.

Welcome to my world.  Crying
There are always hundreds of folks who "know better" what we CAPTAINS should have done... AFTER THE FACT! Few are willing to take the responsibilities that go with the uniform. Bottom line is this CAPTAIN made a decision with little time and little information. Would I make the same decision? I don't know. But he did and he took care of his passengers, his crew and his airplane... THAT's HIS JOB. That's what AA pays him to do. I'm sure AA management has or will go over this incident with a fine-tooth comb, but IMHO.....BRAVO ZULU

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
tungd
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:14 pm

Just a note to readers and posters of this thread...

Please don't read more into the article published by the USAF than the information that is actually presented. As a former member of the news media (thank goodness), it is obvious that many facts of the actual incident were not reported in this particular story. This article was written in a "human interest" format, not "hard news." As such, few facts are included regarding the actual incident. Just because the flight attendants requested medical assistance 1 1/2 hours into the flight does not mean the aircraft was anywhere near COS at the time. The article did not mention how long the PIC flew the aircraft solo before diverting to COS, though it is assumed that Lt. Colonel Neumann took control of the co-pilots station while on approach to COS. Also, the captain's quote of "You'll do" is probably just a small part of a larger conversation, and we don't know how many people were involved in the overall dialog. Did the captain say that in jest after learning of the Colonel's experience, or out of frustration, or what? We don't know, because the article does not explain the context.

Another fact left out of the article: Did the Colonel return to his seat after assisting with moving the co-pilot to the galley, and if he did, what was the time frame from that incident before he assumed his role in the cockpit?

Again, I'm just trying to suggest that you should take most news reports with a grain of salt. Most news stories are designed to give the viewer/listener/reader an overall view of what happened, but due to space/time limitations it's usually impossible to go into details.
 
2H4
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:26 pm

That's exactly what I was getting at, AAR90. People really don't fully respect the experience that isn't visible in a logbook or on a certificate. The captain made a judgement call, and.....surprise surprise.....it went smoothly. A perfect example of a pilot using his years of experience to earn his pay.


2H4




Intentionally Left Blank
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:49 pm

I didn't mean to question the authenticity of the story, but the timeline didn't add up to me. It is apparently just a factual mistake.
 
SA006
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:50 pm

It might not seem like much when compared to the stick time he has with the B-2, B-1 Lancer, F-16 Fighting Falcon, KC-135 Stratotanker, C-12 and C-130 Hercules airframes.

Now that is some experience...well done!  Big thumbs up

Rgds
SA006
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cannikin
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:32 pm

Did you ever see a film called Airplane back in 1980.

All we need is a squeaky little FA and Leslie Neilson coming forward to declare "I just want to tell you both, good luck. We're all counting on you"

I would not want the captain of my plane trying to manage the 737 by himself if another option was available. I know they are CAPABLE of flying it alone, but that doesnt make it any more safe!

Way to go, Capt!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:16 am

I have to say well done:radar:
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:45 am

i want something like this to happen to me so that if they ask me what i wanted as a reward, i would say a job....would beat the hell out of trying to make money to buy multi time to get in  Smile

if the story isnt true,....one of us could sell it to a film maker...and even be in the movie!
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
aa777jr
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:03 am

Was this an AA flight?

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:26 am

The captain did the absolutely right thing here. The co-pilot was unable to do their job. He was making an diversion landing, under siginficantly stressful circumstances. While he was trained and could land the a/c himself, he happened to have a skilled pilot on board as a pax. The assistance by Col. Neumann made it much safer for all on that aircraft. By making sure all checklist items were done with the assistance of a trained pilot, it made sure something critical wasn't missed that could have caused a tradegy and the pilot could concentrate on his job - flying and landing the plane.
To use another example of an off-duty pilot as a pax assistance situation, recall the UA flight DC-10 that crash landed in Souix City many years ago. There happened to be a UA flight instructor on board who gave invaluable help with that terrifying situation, and saving many lives. I am concerned that the co-pilot here will be grounded and probably have his flying licenses suspened for an extended time and maybe even his drivers license.
 
N766UA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:10 am

I wonder what kind of seizure the co-pilot had, surely any underlying conditions should have been detected or disclosed at his regular medical?

Maybe not, but one thing's for sure: he ain't gunna have a medical after this.
This Website Censors Me
 
FinnWings
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:27 am

Please do not get me wrong, I didn't mean to critize the decision of the captain but I was just trying to understand the resons behind his decision. Obviously he did what he think was best for the overall safety and everything went luckily fine. However, the reading of checklists is maybe only 0,5% of the all work what pilots do in the cockpit so therefore I said that the help of Colonel Neumann wasn't such a big deal.

On the side note, as far as I know there are some biz jets and turboprops (like King Air 200) which are approved for single pilot operation flying in challenging IMC conditions... So single pilot operations aren't anything extraordinary and B737 can't be too difficult to handle alone for well experienced captain either.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2004-11-15 20:29:48]
 
DIA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:28 am

To answer two posters above, yes, it was an A^A flight.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:37 am

Travatl:

Why do you think it's untrue? Can you possibly think of anyone *more* qualified to take command of an unfamiliar aircraft than a USAF test pilot? His whole career revolves around unfamiliar aircraft. There's no point in you being a contrarian for just for the sake of being contrary.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 am

Jetjeanes
I agree with you that if anything did happen to the captain it would be a lot better having someone there and not have anyone at all.
Plus a test pilot is nothing to be sneezed at im sure the you'll do quote was taken out of context.
On a wing and a prayer
 
planespotting
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:49 am

anyone is better than no one. As long as you can get that seat filled with someone who does what he is told and nothing else then im sure they can be a big help. for instance"

"see that white lever that says flaps by your left thigh?"
"yep"
"pull it so that little marker goes to 5"

etc....
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
2H4
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:59 am

Finnwings - The captain was simply using all available resources in an attempt to prepare for any (further) unforeseen circumstances. Better to have the resources and not need them than the other way around.

I'm sure, at some point, the captain thought ahead and considered the possibility of somehow becoming incapacitated himself, thus leaving the flight deck completely unmanned. Bringing an experienced pilot up from the back protected everyone from the potential outcome of that scenario.




AAR90 - Thanks for hanging in there and continuing to contribute to the forums. I'm sure others like yourself have become tired of the overanaylsis and second-guessing from forum-goers and have left altogether. Your participation and insight is greatly appreciated...especially by those of us who enjoy hearing about the career from the inside-out and look forward to joining you in the flight levels someday.


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
 
N766UA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:37 am

anyone is better than no one

Especially considering that on any aircraft other than the 737 the USAF Colonel could fly circles around the AA Captain. You have to be one hell of a pilot to fly in the Air Force, especially as a test pilot.
This Website Censors Me
 
2H4
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:32 am



the USAF Colonel could fly circles around the AA Captain


Even if that were true, who's to say the 737 captain doesn't have USAF or flight test experience himself?



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
propilotjw
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:33 am

this did not really happen. It is fake
 
tungd
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Plac

Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:50 pm

PropilotJW,

What didn't really happen? The incident is reported on the FAA's website at http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/evt20041110.htm, naming the airline, flight number, and type of aircraft involved.

As for the situation with Colonel Neumann's temporary position as co-pilot, what makes you think that story was made up? The article is still active on the af.mil website. If it wasn't true, the article would have been pulled by now and the reporter would probably be facing a court marshal.
 
N766UA
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RE: Crew Seizure Enroute, Passenger Takes His Place

Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:19 am

Even if that were true, who's to say the 737 captain doesn't have USAF or flight test experience himself?

If he had anywhere near the flight test experiance of the AF Colonel he wouldn't have the time to attain Captain of a 737. The Captain could be a guard or reserve pilot, but nonetheless the Colonel would surely beat the pants off him. Not to detract from the 737 pilot's abilities in the least, however.
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