flyyul
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:51 am

A simple law of economics has it that price affects demand, and supply affects demand as well. With high prices, and low supply, no wonder why people are not travelling to the USA from Canada...

Here is why....

Example no1. Montreal-Fort Lauderdale Air Canada

Departing airfare (Tango) Rules** 169.00
Returning airfare (Tango) Rules** 169.00
Airfare 338.00
Navcan and Surcharges 55.00
Canada Airport Improvement Fee 15.00
Taxes
Canada Goods and Services Tax (GST/HST #10009-2287) 29.20
U.S.A Transportation Tax 35.84
U.S Passenger Facility Charge 3.92
Canada Quebec Sales Tax (QST #1000-043-172) 1.20
Canada Security Charge 9.35
September 11 Security Fee 3.27
U.S.A Immigration User Fee 9.16
Number of Passengers 1
Total 499.94
Grand Total (Canadian Dollars) 499.94

So you the consumer are a 33% tax rate on an airplane ticket!!!!!!

Example no.2 AA JFK-MIA-JFK

Base Fare 187.90 USD
Taxes: 32.80 USD
Total: 220.70 USD

Your Total Price 220.70 USD

So the tax rate on this ticket is 14.8%... which is our Quebec/Ontario Sales TAX rate

Example no.3

Toronto-LaGuardia WestJet!

base Fare: $142
taxes: $149
After Tax: $291

Tax rate: 51.2% for a 250Nautical Mile flight?

Example no.4

Boston-LaGuardia

base fare $108
taxes $26
after tax $134

tax rate: 19.4%

Members of the board..

The Canadian govt is asleep at the wheel. Despite the fact that passenger traffic is soaring from 09/11 and the Iraq war depressions, taxation rates on commercial aviation are UNSUSTAINBLE.

Imagine if you are a business owner, and you had to tax people 50% on the product of which they consumed? How would the consumer react? He would go to the competition right?.... but what happens if there is no competition? Is it not fair to assume that the general industry would have a sudden decrease in total demand?

It truly amazes me just how incompetant politicians are when it comes to Air Travel.

Why isnt there a bigger outcry to this problem? Where are the Canadian voters in this matter? After all, are they not the people that are being ripped off?

If taxation on airplane ticket were to be sustainable, our airports would be even more vibrant than they are today. We have seen in the last 3-4 years an increase in RJ flying from the USA, draw your conclusions. From Toronto, USAirways has decreased mainline flying to pretty much all RJ. From Montreal, American Airlines has dropped many of its mainline ORD flights to AEagle. In Montreal, Continental has dropped off Montreal-Newark in favor of ExpressJet.

101 Economics says that unsustainable taxation will create a surplus of supply due to reduced demand. That surplus will adjust to the new demand after taxation.... and today we are seeing it first hand in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and Canada as a whole. Due to constrained demand, Canadian transborder traffic is becoming a literal transborder RJ heaven.... not because the market potential isnt there, because the people who govern the market really need to go back to school (or pay better attention, which ever is more necessary).

There was a day when Air Canada was expanding to all sorts of American destinations. There was a day when NW/AA and US were flying 757s to YYZ.. that day wasnt so long ago, and there is no reason why it couldnt come back.

This year, the Liberal government of Canada (a party that I support via my vote) will declare a large budgetary surplus. Meanwhile, many of Canada's airlines are hanging by a thread (Canjet/Air Canada/JetsGo etc) in the transborder markets.

Please free to reply.

 
Squigee
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:28 am

I think you are right on the money.

This is the exact reason why airlines like Westjet and Jetsgo have their '$1' fares: they want to illustrate to the flying public just how much money is going into taxes.

Personally, I think it's outrageous that along with these fees, airports force you to pay ~$10-$20 for airport fees, as well. It seems to me that since Canada is such a large and dispersed country, road and rail travel are not feasible alternatives to air travel. Thus, it is an essential service. Now, my question is, how long would a government last in office if they proposed a 50% tax on perscription medicines? Or such a tax on educational spending?

Simply put, this is an outrageous situation, and I am surprised by the lack of effort on the parts of the airlines to combat this. Many retailers in Canada formed the Canadian Coalition for Fair Digital Access to combat levies imposed by the government on recordable media. http://www.ccfda.ca/ While it hasn't been an overwhelming success, it has been very effective at informing consumers as to where there money goes and how they can fight the levies.

The airline industry needs to overlook their differences and band together to initiate a large scale campaign to inform the public about this situation and try to find ways to stop it. If they don't, it spells an uncertain future for their growth...


Our posts seem too long and thoughtful for A.net... maybe this will help: I sure do like NWA's DC-9's, but I heard from a friend of an aircraft cleaner that they are getting rid of them tommorow!  Big grin

-Mike
Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
 
slawko
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:05 am

100% agreement, but this isnt anything new, its beeen discussed here on a number of occasions... Why bring it up again? This country just elected the same bunch of rejects that are the cause of all those taxes and they have no plans of changing things anytime soon. We have no one to blame but the people who voted for these bafoons in the first place.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:15 am

Slawko,

Well because the liberals are the lesser of two evils. Vote the conservatives, and well get the George W Bush round about from Harper and his fellows.

But the Liberals need to be held accountable.

 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1475
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:54 am

To add to this:

WESTJET

Thu, 02 Dec 04
Flight WS 706 14:50 Depart Calgary, AB (YYC)
20:15 Arrive Windsor, ON (YQG)

Regular Fare $176.00 CAD (this is actually a sale)


Departing total cost:

Airfare per /Guest $ 176.00 CAD
Taxes, Fees and Surcharges/Guest (details) $ 58.98 CAD
Subtotal/Guest $ 234.98 CAD
Multiplied by 1 Guest $ 234.98 CAD


Taxes, fees, and surcharges

All guest travel will be subject to the following taxes, fees and surcharges as applicable:
Passenger Facility Charge (PFCs) of up to $4.50 USD
Airport Improvement Fees of up to $15.00 CAD
September 11 Security Fees of up to $5.00 USD
US Arrival/Departure Tax of up to $27.40 USD
US Immigration Fee of up to $7.00 USD
Air Travellers Security Charge of up to $11.22 CAD
NAV of up to $40.00 CAD
Insurance Surcharge of up to $6.00 CAD
Fuel surcharge of up to $40.00 CAD for transborder flights
Applicable Goods and Services Tax, Harmonized Sales Tax,
Quebec Sales Tax
A tax breakdown will appear on your itinerary. Rates are subject to change.




---------------------------------------------------------
The airline is to blame here as well when it comes to price advertising. They leave every tax and surcharge out, to make the fare seem great. What'll be next?

Fare: $90.00
Captain pay: $X.XX amount
F/O pay: $X.XX amount
Ramp agents: $X.XX amount/5 people...

etc...



Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
slawko
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:10 am

I dunno if they are the lesser of two evils when it comes to government - private enterprise policy but none the less they had nothing to do with the fees and taxes we pay, save for teh GST, and they are not responsible for the lack of control over the AIF fees that airports all over the country are imposing at will...

Good book though ah?? I just finished!  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Noise
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:26 am

Time to vote out the Liberals...
 
DavidYYC
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:01 pm

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:34 am

I could not agree more, and have always thought to myself why no-one else feels about this the same way. The main problems I think is that when any surcharge or levy is initially tacked onto an air ticket, ON ITS OWN, it does not look like too much, but it is never looked at with all the other many levies and taxes that have been added over the years. Secondly, many people wrongly think that air travel is a luxury reserved for the wealthy and elite 'they can afford to pay the extra' would be the refrain. Thirdly, many politicians who make these decisions have not bought themselves an air-ticket for years, and so are unaware of the problem.

Lastly, I do blame the Liberals for this mess, taxation is always a favourite with them. 'Tax and Waste', should be their new public slogan, I can't believe taht any Conservative Govt would be any worse!
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:36 am

FlyYUL,

I agree with most of what you say but your math is way off. The true "tax" rates are:

Example 1 47.91%
Example 2 17.46%
Example 3 104.93%
Example 4 24.07%

Tax rates are a percentage of the cost before taxes, not the price including tax, the way you did it.

The reason I don't agree completely with your analysis is that the trans-border costs include taxes to 2 countries, whereas your US domestic fares have only one set of taxes. Admittedly this makes very little difference to the overall picture, which is a disgrace.
 
Airbus Lover
Posts: 3163
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:51 am

Can't agree more! Not only to airfares but many services or goods bought are heavily taxed. BTW, is this a Canadian only thread or what?  Big grin
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:53 am

I'm not good with my understanding of taxes and the like, but would it be cheaper for someone in Canada to fly an American carrier into the US?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:06 am

No, butit would be cheaper to drive to the US and get on an American carrier as many people do...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:07 am

Mdsh00,

I dont' think so. My parents live in Windsor Ontario,which is right across the river from Detroit. It would make much more sense for me to fly to Detroit Metro than to fly to Toronto (then drive 4 hours to Windsor)

These prices are outrageous. North West or American Airlines are out of the question. Their prices out of Calgary are insane. True I could fly to London or even Windsor (with Westjet) but usually a ticket to Windsor is like 350 dollars one way... and they have crappy departure times etc.

Cheers,

Vio
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:11 am

But the Liberals need to be held accountable

So let's reward them by putting them back in power! I think I may be the only Conservative supporter in Quebec. I hate the Liberals with a passion. They have ruined the airline industry in Canada and will continue to do so. Lapierre is a separatist pig who saw his movement going nowhere (for the moment), and will go right back to the Bloc as soon as the separatist movement is strong again.

A vote for Harper is not a vote for Bush. That's ridiculous. What's crazy is people like Caroline Parrish calling Americans bastards. If Martin was a strong leader he would have kicked her out of the Liberal caucus long ago. He signed her nomination papers! Martin et al are the same old crooks as before. This country needs a change, not more of the same.

As for your analysis FLYYUL, you are right on the money. You might as well drive down to the U.S. and take a flight from there.

-Brandon


 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:27 am

I didn't see anything in the Conservative's campaign that even hinted at lowering all these outrageous fees and taxes, so as far as I'm concerned, those clowns (sorry  Big grin ) who think things would suddenly change if the government changed, are off the wall.

But I'm in agreement with Mark. The Liberals are the lesser of two (or more) evils, although a change at the helm would be nice in this country.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
flyyul
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:04 am

Yes the conservatives who want to

-ban same-sex marriage
-ban abortion
-institute right-wing christian policies for all
-join troops in Iraq

Point being is that somebody should wake up the TRANSPORT MINISTER (yes Monsieur Lapierre revoiles-toi mon gars) and make him aware of this problem.

Wait.. he never books his tickets, only his secretaries and co-ordinators  Smile

 
qblue
Posts: 126
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:11 am

To my friends in the U.S. Canada is not a rich a you are. We have a very small population base with many social programs to pay for. The government policy for many years now have been USER PAY. You use you pay. The government been getting out of the airport business. They are letting local authorities control and run many of the larger airports. The government does not have the money to improve many of these airport to the level to compete many of our transborder neighbor. By the way the local authorities not use the airport improvement tax for airport improvement but have to pay the federal government rent for the right to run the airport. In YVR case it is over 60 million a year. Yes the taxes are high but I think we are getting a pretty good product like YVR. In Canada enjoy the beauty of the country and the triple taxation the fed legalized robbery. They tax the ticket, they make you pay for the use customs, you pay for security, you pay for Nav Can and the passport I think cost close to $80.00. You might not get mugged or robbed on the street of Canada because the Fed have already done so.


 
ac7e7
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:12 am

I never said that things would change overnight, however the Conservatives would allow the market to decide rather than regulating a deregulated industry.

Our military is in shambles, healthcare is broken to the point where thowing money at it won't do any good, Air Canada is regulated in a deregulated industry, Martin continues to allow MPs like Parrish to voice their racist opinion of our neighbours (what if she was calling Jews or Mulims "bastards"? We would be calling for her execution! This reflects badly on us as Canadians for allowing this to happen. Shame.

Voting the Liberals back into power was a mistake. Pushing this country even more left than it was before (thanks to the NDP balance of power) will only weaken Canada's voice on the international stage.

Lower the fees and taxes in the airline industry and get the hell out of the industry. PAUL MARTIN, LEAVE THE INDUSTRY ALONE!! AUSTRALIA DID IT, SO CAN WE!!!

ok, I'm done  Big grin

-Brandon
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:29 am

With a healthy surplus in Ottawa, I think the Feds can afford a few things.

1. Reduce the airport rents across the country.
2. Reduce tax on Jet fuel.
3. Cancel the security fee for short-haul flights within Canada.
3. Negotiate with the US so the trans boarder passengers don’t' get double taxed.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:35 am

Yes the conservatives who want to

-ban same-sex marriage
-ban abortion
-institute right-wing christian policies for all
-join troops in Iraq


Left-wing propaganda. The Conservatives wouldn't dare try to implement a ban on abortion. Canada is too progressive to allow that. The Liberal propaganda campaign seems to have worked. They scared the public into voting Liberal over issues that fringe Conservative MPs have proposed (even though they would never be made into law).

Canada doesn't even have enough troops/equipment available to deploy in Iraq or anywhere else. I wouldn't worry about such things. It will take years to bring the military back up to standard.

Obviously, the Liberals will be the only party Canada will vote for since there is apparently no alternative. Too bad.


You might not get mugged or robbed on the street of Canada because the Fed have already done so.

This is true. All the money that was taken from us is now in the hands of Liberal-friendly advertising firms.

The airline industry needs to be COMPLETELY DEREGULATED. This won't happen under the Liberals. The Liberals are so backward, that they are proposing allowing U.S. carriers to fly point-to-point within Canada (I'm in favour of this) but they may not necessarily require the U.S. to give Canadian carriers reciprocal rights. What the hell are they thinking??? Only a separatist Liberal could think of something like this...  Big grin

-Brandon

 
pilotpip
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:46 am

Let those added fees be a lessson to all of you out there that ATC should never be privatized. NavCanada is killing the Canadian air carriers and if certain people have their way in the states, it will happen here too.
DMI
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 538
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:54 am

The airline industry needs to be COMPLETELY DEREGULATED

and what's our definition of "completer deregulation"?
 
DavidYYC
Posts: 160
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:34 pm


Mmm.. it is a pity this thread has been side-tracked by political bickering. The bottom line is there are TOO MANY TAXES on our air tickets, and we only have the current government to blame for this. Lets hope we can see some progressive thinking and abolish some of these ridiculous and punitive add-ons!
 
sebring
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:49 pm

You're wasting your time. The government knows how high the fees are. They have been promising to review the fees since 1999. They are addicted to the revenue pure and simple. It's not the transport minister calling the shots, it's the finance department mandarins.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:53 pm

For one, allowing ALL the airlines in Canada to compete without the Competition Bureau accusing a company of undercutting their smaller competitors. WestJet, Jetsgo, Canjet are all able to compete against Air Canada now...well, at least Jetsgo and Canjet can...WestJet had to use corporate espionage.

How about forcing Air Canada to keep its headquarters in Montreal, keep maintenance bases open in Montreal, Toronto, and Winnipeg?

Regulations like these are outdated and make no sense unless the government is trying to keep their voter support happy by forcing Air Canada to keep the bases open and keeping jobs in those cities. If the bases are being used, fantastic, but the airline should have the option of closing a base if it needed to.

I'm glad that the Liberals are looking at a new airline policy, but I'm not holding my breath.

Let the Market decide.



 
ac7e7
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:01 pm

I forgot what this thread was all about  Big grin

You are correct Sebring, the government knows how high the taxes are. Change takes years in Canada, and if there was a policy change, it would already be antiquated.

As I said above, I'm not holding my breath. The taxes and fees are here to stay.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:21 am

It is not just a Canadian "problem"... (courtesy of SWA)

The "Plane" Truth About Your Fare

The airline industry is subject to taxation at federal, state, and local levels. Your ticket is comprised not only of the fare Southwest Airlines charges from one destination to another, but also includes taxes imposed directly on your purchase. Take a look at the fare breakout the next time you travel and see what percentage of your total fare goes to the government.

Each time you fly you are subject to four different government imposed aviation taxes or fees.

  1. Federal Excise Tax - It's 7.5% of the base price you pay for an airline ticket. The money goes to pay for operation of the air traffic control system and airport infrastructure.


  2. Federal Flight Segment Tax (Fee) - An additional $3.10 fee (adjusted upward annually for inflation) for each flight segment (takeoff and landing) on your itinerary. The money also goes to the Aviation Trust Fund to pay for Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and airport activities.


  3. Federal Security Fee - A new $2.50 fee on each passenger "enplanement," up to $10.00 on a roundtrip, to pay for new federally controlled security measures. (Airlines pay yet another new security tax directly to the U.S. Government to further defray the costs of the government's war on terrorism.)


  4. Passenger Facility Charges (PFC) - Congress permits local airports to assess PFC's of up to $4.50 from each airline passenger. But, the law forces the airline to be the tax collector. It is collected for each airport on your itinerary with a PFC. The airports authorized to collect PFC's are required to utilize the fees for airport projects.


The above direct taxes are added to your ticket. Indirect charges for federal fuel excise taxes, federal and state income and payroll taxes, and state and local property and transaction taxes and fees are not "seen" on your ticket, but are embedded operating costs reflected in your total fare.

Excessive taxation on the airline industry translates to higher fares for the traveling public. When imposed on low-fare carriers such as Southwest Airlines, the "flat" rate taxes or fees (those not related to price), like the segment tax and security fee, are particularly onerous to our Customers and can result in a disproportionate tax burden on low-fare airlines and our value conscious Customers.

In effect, the total tax burden on air travel is frequently higher than the "sin taxes" on alcohol and tobacco. Has government declared that the Freedom to Fly is a "sin?"


There is No Small Tax

"It's just a small tax," you say? Let's just take one "small" tax Southwest Airlines pays to the federal government: the federal fuel tax of 4.3 cents per gallon. This tax is not seen on your ticket and can be considered an indirect tax.

Unlike the automobile industry, which is subject to taxes at the gas pump for roads, airlines were required to pay an excise tax, which today is 7.5% of the ticket price, to help pay for our "roads" in the sky. But, in 1993, the federal government imposed a new tax on the airline industry in the form of a fuel tax of 4.3 cents per gallon, above and beyond the federal excise tax of 7.5%.

Does a federal fuel tax mean anything to you? After all, it's just 4.3 cents per gallon…right? Southwest Airlines purchases approximately one billion gallons of fuel a year. A 4.3 cents per gallon federal fuel tax means $43 million in Southwest Airlines' revenues goes to Uncle Sam-on top of all our other taxes.

Let us look at a further example of this point. Southwest Airlines' average fare is $84.00 one way. To pay the federal fuel tax alone, Southwest Airlines would have to take the total gross ticket revenue at an average fare of $84.00 from 511,905 passengers. Said another way…Southwest Airlines has to make 5,688 flights at an average load factor of 67% to pay the federal fuel tax! That is on top of what we pay for the actual fuel itself!

Just think how much lower our fares could be for you if we didn't have the "small" 4.3 cents per gallon federal fuel tax, and all the other taxes and fees on air travel.

http://www.swatakeoff.com/
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
flyyul
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:03 pm

The USA is a great place to live  Big thumbs up

 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:43 pm

Why do Canadians always have an inferiority complex when it comes to the USA? Both countries have their positive sides and their negative sides. And actually there's a big brain drain in Canada. Professionals are leaving to the states/Asia/Middle East for better paying jobs.

Brandon you're not the only conservative in Quebec!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:27 pm

The only thing I really have a serious beef with is the two different security charges Canada puts on transborder flights, the ATSC specifically. Why do we have to pay an extra tax for security? Normal taxes should cover security where ever we go in Canada and security shouldn't stop at the airport property.

I find it sad that you add up just the Canadian taxes, leaving the surcharges off like Fuel, Insurance, AIF, and Nav Can, the Canadian taxes are still higher. Just the amount Canada charges for security is higher than the US eventhough the US has bomb sniffers galore, electronic fingerprinting, optical scanners, and is on a state of high alert. Why the extra taxes? Aren't we paying enough with the sales tax and the income tax? Then you figure the US government is paying for the FAA and the Canadian Tax doesn't even cover that and there is the extra Nav Can charge and it blows your mind.

I don't mind paying for Nav Can, AIF, and the normal sales tax that shows up on everything else, but the specialized taxes and Insurance and Fuel surcharges have got to go. A VIA train running from Toronto to Montreal should have the same taxes on the ticket as a plane ticket and the only difference I can accept as reasonable is the AIF and Nav Can fees, and even those should be buried in the cost of the ticket rather than stuck on to the end of the bill. Can you imagine if VIA rail ticket prices didn't include fuel and train stations and there was an additional OPP police fee? Its insane that politicians and government bureaucrats can find the values tacked onto the bottom of the airplane ticket reasonable.
 
airplane
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:54 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:47 pm

How about charters,
have anyone seen the taxes now on charters ?
a $49 or $99 return to FLL has to be topped up with a $210 tax. This is just insane.
A package to PUJ or anywhere to the Caribbean can be taxed to $241 per person. It is just too much !
This really huts the business and many airlines have to lower their prices too much to try to make it more attractive to the public. But the same ridiculous amount of taxes have to be added.
When is this going to stop ?
Peole are always complaining that there is no more good $500 packages to Vegas or down south. Right ! With these taxes how can that happen !

It is a rotten market.


JP
The sky´s the limit
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:11 am

The Bush Election could be the greatest gift the Liberal gov't can get.
If Bush goes through his policies, it could scare the Canadians of
the Conservatives for quiet sometime.

As far as I can see and alot of Canadians can see as well, there is little difference between the Republicans in the US and the Conservatives in Canada.

Our boys in Canada are simply wolves in sheep's clothing. All a bunch of Neo-Fascists.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:50 am

Our boys in Canada are simply wolves in sheep's clothing. All a bunch of Neo-Fascists.

Seems to me that you liberals are a bunch of dictators. Anyone who doesn't share your views is either racist or fascist or what have you. Get over yourselves.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
flyyul
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:17 am

Because liberal policies generally dont favor the rich, and generall have humanistic social conscious.

Not in the USA, were conservatives in their past have had trouble accepting Blacks, anti-Abortionists, muslims, and now GAY people.

Canada is a great country because of the liberal mindset. There is little social divide, there is tolerance amongst different cultures, races, and religions.

America is a great example  Big thumbs up



 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am

>Seems to me that you liberals are a bunch of dictators. Anyone who doesn't share your views is either racist or fascist or what have you. Get over yourselves.<

I don't have problems with whatever one's views are. However I do have a problem when those in power want to impose thier views on morality on the society as a whole through laws,etc. I have huge problem when these laws pertain to personal choice and social behaviour. I have problem when my gov't tells me how to think, how to act, how to believe. This to me is real dicatorship.

The Republicans in the US may be heading down that road, if the Conservatives were elecated, I imagine the reformers in the party would have taken Canada in the same direction.

I apologize for taking this thread further from an Aviation discussion.


Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
flyyul
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:46 am

Worst of all, Repbulicans are exploiting the naive southern christian worldview... essentially, the raison d'etre for conservative philosophy.

Urban America and Canada have constantly shot conservatives down, and will continue  Smile

 
bmacleod
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:54 am

I thought this discussion was about the extra taxes paid by Canadians flying south to the US and other international destinations. I'm wondering how political mud-slinging took over and why the airliners.net monitors haven't deleted your postings.

Yes. We are paying way to much in extra fees and taxes and a solution needs to be found quickly. A change in government may be needed but the airline industry should have some ideas as well.

[Edited 2004-11-17 18:57:01]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
ac7e7
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:36 am

Thanks Marco, at least I know I'm not the only one.

Our boys in Canada are simply wolves in sheep's clothing. All a bunch of Neo-Fascists

Conservatives in Canada are barely right of the Democrats in the States. They know and understand that Canadians are more"liberally" minded, and wouldn't risk losing an election over a controversial issue like abortion. Come on people, Neo-Fascists? Well, I guess we have a fascist state now that a large percentage of voters went Conservative. Stop listening to Liberal dogma against the Conservatives. There are always fringe MPs that speak their minds, including Liberal "angels" like Caroline Parrish. If anybody is a neo-fascist, it's her.

Liberals are crooks who have been in power way too long. They have ruined the airline industry in Canada. Collenette was a dictating Transport Minister who did not understand the airline industry and could not come to the realization that Air Canada was a PRIVATE company. Air Canada was privitized, but over-regulated thanks to the stupidities of the Liberal governnment.

Taxes and fees are just too high. This is typical Canada though; higher and higher taxes, less and less services. Lower airport rents, hell even eliminate them. That will ease the burden on the paying customer.... you would hope.



 
Marco
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54 am

The Americans elect a conservative leader (the majority favored him and his policies) and that's unacceptable. However when Iran or Turkey (despite it's secular government) elect a conservative Islamic party, that's seen as "their culture". Well maybe the Americans have decided on their values and you're going to have to respect that....that life isn't just about being able to smoke up on st. catherine without getting arrested!  Insane
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
flyyul
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:14 am

And life is based on not accepting gays and women?

What moral values are you talking about when you illegally invade war... Marco your a christian (like I).. what does your bible have to say about general conservative policies? (ya know, a system that favors the wealthy, the 50 million without health-care, the pro-gun policies, the hate for gays and abortionists, the lack of tolerance and understanding for other religions)! I hate to get into this part of the conversation, but its funny that the country that is the most religious is also the one that hasnt fully understood the fundamentals of its religion.

So conservative philosophies are a dying breed across the world, except for in the USA  Big grin


 
ac7e7
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:30 am

Illegal wars? What does this mean? Because the U.N. apparently did not sanction it (though it did through Resolution 1441)? Security Council members knew what "serious consequences" meant when it passed Resolution 1441.

Saddam Hussein torturing his own people was the illegal act. Saddam stealing $21 billion from the Oil-for-Food program was illegal. I'm glad Saddam is out of power. What did everyone expect to happen in Iraq? Of course there were going to be problems. Anybody who believed that peace was going to sweep across Iraq when Saddam was toppled is delusional.

FLYYUL, I have a feeling our posts are going to be deleted anyway, so for the record, yes I agree with you concerning the "sad marketplace" in Canada.  Big grin



 
flyyul
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:32 am

AC7E7.

There are hundreds of "Saddam Husseins" out there.. who are forgotten, because specific economic interest do not justify some type on invasion/removal.

Where are the conservatives in Sudan? Rwanda? Somalia? Libya? etc etc... it keeps going on and on.

 
ac7e7
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:39 am

I can ask the same question about liberals. These are people that hold human rights, equality, etc etc. dear to their hearts, but they sit there wasting their time complaining about George W. Bush when they could be pushing their governments to do something about Sudan, Rwanda, Libya, etc.

I agree there are many Saddam Husseins out there. If Saddam ever developed another chemical weapon, which he has used in the past against his own people and Iran, the liberals would blame the U.S. for not doing something about Saddam in the first place.

The U.S. is damned if they do, damned if they don't. The left should be focusing on bigger issues than George Bush. He's been elected for another 4 years, its time to live with it and move on.

So how'bout those Leafs?  Laugh out loud
 
flyyul
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:44 am

Im not to the left.. though I think the USA can fix its social issues (which are severe) by making a small movement to the left (medicare, better public education etc.)

Saddam wasnt making chemical weapons, at least thast what Colin Powell quoted 3 months before the 180degree turn in direction  Big grin

 
ac7e7
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:52 am

The U.S. is far from fixing their social problems, whether with right wing or left wing solutions.

He may not have had chemical weapons at that point, however, Saddam did make chemical weapons. He used them. What makes you think he wouldn't make/use them again? If he was Mister Honesty, he wouldn't have thrown out the weapons inspectors. They could have been done their job years ago had he not continued to elude them at every turn.

Scum bag plain and simple. Saddam was voted off the planet. Whose next? I say........ Clive Beddoe.  Big grin
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:16 pm

But the Liberals need to be held accountable.

By re-electing them? Ya right...that works. Mark, you got the Fed govt you deserve. Congrats. Anyone whining about air taxes who voted liberal -- you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Anyway, you are free to not fly, or make more money. Both will make the air taxes more manageable on your pocket book.

There was a day when NW/AA and US were flying 757s to YYZ..

This has nothing to do with the air tax regime. These have been replaced by smaller aircraft and more frequency.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airplane
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RE: Canadian Air Traffic: A Sad Marketplace

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:14 pm

There are hundreds of "Saddam Husseins" out there.. who are forgotten, because specific economic interest do not justify some type on invasion/removal.

Yeah, they are all in Brampton


JP
The sky´s the limit

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