s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:12 am

the Brazilian Sinergy Group.

The decision was made a few moments ago and made public by Mr. Efromovich at a press meeting.

According to him, AV will not loose its identity, but some improvements on fleet and destinations would be made. Also, they plan to return to the all cargo operation. Fleet renewal should be completed by 2010.

I just got the news from a friend who was at the press meeting, he works for a major aviation magazine here.

Nothing official on the press here, though

Let´s wait and see...

Cheers

Renato

"ad astra per aspera"
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:15 am

If that just did happen it would mean that pilots' strike will be effective almost immediately...ohh, God bless us. It is in the press here in Colombia. Sad news, I wanted the pilots to take over.

Juan
SKBO

Edited: Update

[Edited 2004-11-16 21:17:56]
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:18 am

Hola Juan,

My source is a friend (aviation journalist) who attended to the press conference held at Ocean Air HQ earlier today. As you may know, Ocean Air is owned by Sinergy Group too.

Gran saludos

Renato
"ad astra per aspera"
 
elcapi1980
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:31 am

RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:10 am

it is true... here is a link,,,,,

http://www.portafolio.com.co/port_secc_online/porta_econ_online/2004-11-16/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR_PORTA-1899445.html
--------------------------------------------------------------

Efromovich indicó que el nuevo socio de control de Avianca pretende renovar su flota, compuesta por 36 aviones de los cuales 15 son McDonell Douglas MD-83, un Boeing 767-300, cuatro Boeing
767-200, seis Boeing 757-200 y diez Fokker 50.

“El año próximo decidiremos sobre la nueva flota de Avianca, que empezará a ser reemplazada a partir de 2008 ó 2010”, anotó el empresario, quien dijo que mañana estará en Bogotá para detallar a las autoridades colombianas y a la prensa los planes que tiene para la aerolínea.

Sao Paulo
Efe

What planes is he thinking about...emb190 and 170...that will be cool...




I love you barranquilla!!!!!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:29 am

HEADLINES!!!!!!

Now is official: Oceanair from Brazil, owned by Brazilian magnate Mr. German Efromovich, bought a 75% stake at Avianca, and the other 25% was bought by the Colombian Coffee Association.

Mr. Efromovich has a vast oil empire in the state of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Oceanir was created as a local airline to tranport staff of oil fields in the area around Macae to the city of Rio de Janeiro.

USD63 million will be injected in Avianca to capitalised the company.

Rgs,
Hardi
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:49 am

''We are thinking of expanding Avianca's participation in the continent and will look into the possibility of expanding internationally,'' Efromovich said.

Quoted from the news:

Brazilian firm buys Avianca

Grupo Sinergy, a Brazilian company led by investor German Efromovich, paid $64 million for control of Aerovias Nacionales de Colombia SA, the oldest carrier in the Americas, in a plan to rescue the airline from bankruptcy.

Efromovich, 54, said the group bought 75 percent of the airline, known as Avianca, from shareholders Valores Bavaria SA and the National Federation of Colombian Coffee Growers in Bogotá. Valores sold its 50 percent stake, while the federation will retain 25 percent for three years. Avianca, which was founded in 1919, will keep its name.

''The commitment exists to maintain the flag and make it grow,'' Efromovich said at a media conference in Bogotá. ``It wouldn't make sense in business terms for somebody to change what is not only Colombia's but a Latin American bastion, the oldest airline on the continent.''

REORGANIZATION PLAN

The capital injection will help save Avianca from bankruptcy while boosting its reach across Latin America, Efromovich said. The acquisition will be presented as part of the airline's plan to reorganize about $300 million in debt that must meet with approval from its creditors, said Gabriel Silva, general manager of the coffee growers federation.

''This is really positive for Avianca. It has great potential,'' said Hernan Galindo, a consultant at Aviation management Services in Miami. ``This will help it move ahead with its restructuring and concentrate on its expansion, enter new markets.''

Valores Bavaria shares rose 69 pesos, or 20 percent, to 410 pesos, a 52-week high, on the Colombian Stock Exchange Index.

Efromovich's Grupo Sinergy, based in Sao Paulo, is owner and operator of Ocean Air, a regional airline in Brazil. Efromovich, who was born in Bolivia, is also president of Maritima Petroleo e Engenhaira Ltda, an oil exploration and rig construction company that operates in Brazil, Ecuador and Colombia, with Heaquarters in Rio de Janeiro. He also controls a shipyard, Estaleiro Ilha SA, in Sao Paulo.

EXTENDED REACH

''With this, we can be a feeder for all Brazilian cities,'' Efromovich said, referring to Ocean Air's regional flights. Ocean Air flies about 20,000 passengers a month on its 10 Bombardier aircraft and had become the biggest regional airline in Brazil since beginning operations as a taxi carrier for oil companies more than two years ago, he said.

Avianca, which is expected to bill $630 million this year in ticket sales, has 35 aircraft, including Boeings 757 and 767, MD 83's and Fokker 50's, and flies to 19 cities in Colombia and 15 countries in Latin America, North America and Europe, according to Ocean Air. The Colombian company has about 5,000 employees.

''We are thinking of expanding Avianca's participation in the continent and will look into the possibility of expanding internationally,'' Efromovich said.

Avianca filed for bankruptcy protection in a New York court last March after rising fuel and insurance costs deepened its losses. Avianca posted a loss of 309 billion pesos ($107 million) last year, compared with 102 billion pesos in 2002, the company reported last week

 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:18 am

"Ocean Air flies about 20,000 passengers a month on its 10 Bombardier aircraft and had become the biggest regional airline in Brazil since beginning operations as a taxi carrier for oil companies more than two years ago, he said."

LOL...they fly the much more superior Embraer aircraft! Big grin
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
wimpycol
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:23 am

Finally some REAL news!

GOOD or BAD we must see what the future will tell us! Hopefully this is the first step for AV to come back and become even stronger!!

AV hope to fly with you again in the near future!!!!!!


Saludos
Willem Alberto / The Flying Dutchman



Here som links;

Germán Efromovich quiere tomar los ‘controles’ de Avianca en un plazo de 10 días
http://www.portafolio.com.co/port_secc_online/porta_econ_online/2004-11-16/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR_PORTA-1899445.html

Pilotos de Avianca y actuales accionistas estaban en discusión sobre el futuro de la aerolínea
http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/economia/2004-11-16/ARTICULO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-1899431.html



Some nice notes from Germán Efromovich:
Let's hope that he will keep his word!!!


  • Efromovich said Tuesday that Synergy would meet 100% of Avianca's remaining obligations, including all debts owed to a pension fund for retired Avianca pilots.


  • Synergy believes Avianca is a "viable" airline and plans to continue with the cargo business as well as domestic and international passenger services, Efromovich said, adding that Avianca will continue to fly under the Colombian flag.


  • In its written statement, Synergy said it plans to strengthen the role of Colombia's capital city, Bogota, as a regional hub and will seek to attract tourists and businessmen. The firm is betting on growing commercial ties between Latin American countries to fuel demand for regional air services.


  • Efromovich said there had been no competing bids for Avianca. In early October, Avianca pilots said they opposed the Brazilian group's bid and were planning to buy the airline with an unnamed Arab investor.


  • "Up until today, anybody could have made a proposal to buy control of the company. Up to the minute the judge confirmed our plan, there was no other proposal on the table," he told reporters at a news conference in an OceanAir building opposite Sao Paulo's city airport.


  • Efromovich said Sinergy would take control of Avianca in 10 days once the paperwork for the deal had been wrapped up.


  • "During the (restructuring) process other companies came into the market and it (Avianca) lost market share, principally domestically. We intend to win that back," he said.


  • "The market is growing and there is room to grow," he said. "There is the cargo area that Avianca stopped exploring. We should get back to that.".




  • BOGOTA (Dow Jones)

    Colombia's flagship airline, Avianca SA (ANC.YY), on Tuesday received final approval for its restructuring proposal from a U.S. bankruptcy court judge, a move that paves the way for control of the carrier to be transferred to Brazil's Grupo Synergy.

    Synergy will acquire a 75% stake in the company, while the remainder will be in the hands of Colombia's National Confederation of Coffee Growers. Currently, the coffee growers group and Colombian conglomerate Valores Bavaria (VALBAVARI.BO) each control a 50% stake.

    Avianca, which bills itself as the second-oldest commercial airline in the world and operates 290 domestic and international flights a day, has fallen on hard times in recent years due to slumping demand and rising fuel costs. Synergy owns OceanAir, an air taxi company that serves Brazil's oil industry and also operates regional routes serving more than 30 cities.

    Avianca filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in March of 2003 and delivered its reorganization plan to a U.S. court in July of this year. In March of this year, Synergy offered to inject $63 million of capital into Avianca and assume nearly $300 million in debt.

    Speaking in Sao Paulo on Tuesday, Synergy's president, German Efromovich, said his company expects to take control of Avianca within 10 days. He added that the acquisition may result in a capital injection of as much as $70 million.

    Initially, Synergy will invest $44.5 million to acquire the 75% stake, Efromovich said, noting that his company has already secured a letter of credit for the full amount with a New York bank. He said that the coffee growers federation would need to supply the remainder of the capital injection to maintain its 25% stake.

    Under the debt restructuring approved Tuesday by New York judge Allan L. Gropper, Avianca has reduced its total debt to $220 million, from $300 million, and extended the average duration of the debt to seven years, Synergy said in a statement.

    Avianca said in a press release Tuesday that 99.8% of its creditors threw their weight behind the Synergy proposal. The Colombian airline said the restructuring will enable the company to obtain the originally planned $63 million capital injection within 13 months, before it emerges from Chapter 11 proceedings.

    The final approval of the restructuring ends a drawn out battle involving company management, pilots and creditors. In recent weeks, the Colombian pilots association said on several occasions that it had received proposals from unnamed bidders to acquire the airline.

    In the statement Tuesday, Avianca said that Judge Gropper declined to concede seven more days, as had been requested by pilots, to wait for another proposal to surface.

    "This decision was endorsed by creditors, who ... have made clear that up until now only one company had expressed an interest in purchasing the airline," Avianca said.

    Pilots, who had threatened in recent days to go on strike if the Synergy deal went ahead, alleged that it was unclear whether Efromovich would guarantee payment of $145 million owed to retired pilots.

    Efromovich said Tuesday that Synergy would meet 100% of Avianca's remaining obligations, including all debts owed to a pension fund for retired Avianca pilots.

    "This is not the moment to be talking about strikes," Efromovich said. "Within the restructuring the company plans to pay 100% of its debts. (The airline pilots) are the only ones that have been receiving full payments," he said.

    Synergy believes Avianca is a "viable" airline and plans to continue with the cargo business as well as domestic and international passenger services, Efromovich said, adding that Avianca will continue to fly under the Colombian flag.

    The Brazilian executive praised the orthodox policies of Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe, saying they have brought tranquility for investors.

    "We can only be optimistic with regards to Colombia. It is an excellent place to invest," Efromovich said.

    In its written statement, Synergy said it plans to strengthen the role of Colombia's capital city, Bogota, as a regional hub and will seek to attract tourists and businessmen. The firm is betting on growing commercial ties between Latin American countries to fuel demand for regional air services.

    Synergy will also leverage the regional network of its existing Brazilian airline, OceanAir, Efromovich said.

  • Colombia... can't wait to be there again!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Chiguire
    Posts: 1848
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:26 am

    I don´t know if this was post already. But as far as I understand that the New York court has approved that Avianca is out of Chapter 11.
    http://www.el-universal.com/2004/11/16/eco_ava_16A507859.shtml
     
    Arcano
    Posts: 2299
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:02 am

    Hi!

    Why the pilots are planning to strike? Why are them against Synergy?

    Good luck and congratulations, Avianca.

    Regards )( Arcano
    in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
     
    757MDE
    Posts: 1451
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:27 am

    Arcano:

    The Pilots feel their retirement and the debts the Airline has with them aren't guarenteed with Synergy's offer.

    AFAIK they say that Synergy will only guarantee them as long as the Airline is profittable, but they want them to be guaranteed under any circumstances.
    That's my perception at least, don't quote me on that.


    Now, although Efromovich won't be la panacea, I have some trust on him (it's the only choice now anyway). I just hope the Pilots won't strike or something alike, because the Airline is just going out of the Hospital, and cannot afford to be sick again so soon.
    Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
     
    bongo
    Posts: 1783
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:24 am

    Avianca: La Aerolinea de Colombia (Not anymore)
    Avianca: La Aerolinea de Brazil (Welcome Brazilian investor, at least is a salvation for our suffered and beloved airline)  Big grin
    MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
     
    RCS763AV
    Posts: 3645
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:19 am

    The pilots say they will not strike (still).

    Hardi, why do you keep posting innacurate info about Avianca´s situation?

    The coffee growers already owned 50%, and gave up 25% to synergy!

    Anyway, real good news...lets see what the fleet renewal progaram will be about. Im hopingfor 73G, ATRs and who knows, maybe 7E7s (just kidding).
     
    757MDE
    Posts: 1451
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:42 pm

    RCS:
    The coffee growers only owned 25% at the time Synergy bought, Hardi was right there.

    I don't think they'll go for ATR, but who knows.
    There are some years left anyway.
    Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
     
    RCS763AV
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:36 pm

    757MDE: Hardi said they bought that 25%
     
    User avatar
    tavong
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:42 pm

    Well we have to wait until the operations and routes make a change (more in frecuencies than other things i think), the new fleet will tkae some more time but well i can live with that if Avianca keeps alive HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.

    On the fleet things i really don't think we will see ATRs in AV colors, they just will be too old at the time the fleet changes.......maybe Dash-8Qs but i really don't think that to much seriously.


    Gus
    SKBO

    Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
     
    hardiwv
    Posts: 4341
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    Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:19 am

    RCS763av:

    Why do you keep complaining about my posts? I'm just trying to contribute to the debate, and translated some news from the Spanish (which is NOT my first language) to English! I was trying to help, sorry if in my translation something got missing or inaccurate, ok?

    Previously you said I was wrong when I stated that AV was bought by Synergy, and now you see that I was right, correct? In investment terms, AV was NOT bought by Efromovich, but Brazilian company Synergy, in which Oceanair is part.

    Congratulations, Avianca! I hope this also makes the ties between Colombia and Brazil become stronger. I recall a press interview of Efromovich, and he plans to connect BOG with MAO, and also transform BOG as a regional hug.

    I hope all the best for Avianca! I personally have very good expectation. Efromovich has the cash, and is a creative and forward-looking investor. I hope AV becomes what VIRGIN is now, since I usually try to compare Efromovich with Richard Branson.

    Rgs,
    Hardi
     
    JUANR
    Posts: 837
    Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:33 am

    Hardiwv wrote: (post 4) "and the other 25% was bought by the Colombian Coffee Association"

    That is completely inaccurate The Coffee Growers already owned the 50% of the company and now they will sell the 25% and keep the other 25. BTW that wasn't quoted from the news or if it was you did not tell us.

    On the other side, it seems that pilots are not giving up yet since it looks like they are trying to set up a new offer (late of course) to be taken to the judge. The do not like Efromovich and I can't blame them, I do not trust him either; the media and Efromovich keeps saying that this should be a decision to celebrate but from my point of view things are as dark as they were in the beggining and there is nothing to celebrate...yet.

    Did you know that Efromovich has familiar links with the Santo Domingo Family, this should be further investigated, something tells me that Efromovich is only a testaferro of Julio MArio Santodomingo.

    Juan
    SKBO

    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
     
    hardiwv
    Posts: 4341
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    Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:41 am

    Juanr:

    1. It was a quote from Ducth news in Amsterdam.

    2. Apparently you did not read my reply 6. Please see my Reply 6, which contains ALL the information, and therefore overides my Reply 5. My post 6 says that Colombia Coffee Associate retained 25% stake. ok??

    3. Synergy group bought AVIANCA.

    4. If you have any problems let me know! ok????

    PLEASE READ MY REPLY 6... Smile

    Congratulations, AV!

    Take care,
    Hardi







     
    hardiwv
    Posts: 4341
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    Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:47 am

    I wanted the pilots to take over.

    Juanr, Ohhh...now I see why you are sad! This exaplains a lot! You actually wanted Avianca to become a private club of the pilots....AV would not last even one year....I can just imagine a company owned by its staff....probably the first thing they would do is a pay increase, right? of course, decrease working hours and increase pension benefits as well, correct?


    Rgs,
    Hardi


     
    Southamerica
    Posts: 2298
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:05 am


    Hardi,


    I suggest you stop losing your time on other things that are not really what you are truly interested in, which is Brazilian aviation itself, as it seems that nobody cares about these type of news, and ironically the only one is a foreign user as yourself. Don't be let down by users who judge your posts either, as they don't even have the spirit to post the news translated into English, they are only here to critisize the little details and not to share valuable arguments about the general topic.

    Believe me, Colombian topics are a total disaster and I've surely had a better time staying away from them. They are an effective user-repellent. For the time being, keep sharing with us your news about Varig, TAM or Brazil in general, which I by far enjoy as they seem they generate far more real interesting discussions about aviation.

    Thanks, I'm out of here.



    SOUTHAMERICA

     
    RCS763AV
    Posts: 3645
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:25 am

    SOUTHAMERICA: Since when can u correct people all the time and we cant? Gosh! You judge our posts all the time and now are telling us not to do it! And colombian topics are user-repellent when the user keeps being rude to the other people.


    A question to the other users:

    Would the Dash 8Q400 fit in Avianca´s operation? Maybe the Q300...
     
    hardiwv
    Posts: 4341
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    Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:26 am

    southamerica:
    ok, thanks for the advice!
    rgs,
    hardi
     
    erikwilliam
    Posts: 2122
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:40 am

    Brazilian economical newspaper VALOR ECONOMICO, called Sinergy Group the winner today.

    A New York court law gave the decision to Sinergy, the group shoul take the company in 10 days from now. The recovery plan, will put up to USD70milion to recover the airline and renegotiate the debt, of USD220milion, up to 7 years to pay.
    Sinergy will take 75% of total sharing votes and Avianca´s capital, beeing the major holder. The brand will not be changed, as well as nationality of the company.
    Avianca has 35 planes, among then 757 767 MD83 and F-50´s.
    Sinergy plan´s that Avianca will have USD630milion in incomes and transport up to 5,5milion passengers in 2004.



    Sorry if the translation was not so good.

    Another news from Ocean Air(sinergy): Ocean Air flerts with Transbrasil owner Marcio Cipriani to put Transbrasil back in the air. The reborn company should be only for cargo, and would still operate under Transbrasil brand, just with another management. The future incomes should be use to pay the compani debt, that reaches USD300milion.
    The broken company Transbrasil still owns 14 cargo terminals, 5hangars, 49check in counters, 28 staff area and 17 ticket counters.

    It´s good to remember that airport areas such as check in and ticket counters are operate under license by the companies, licenses last for 15 years.

    I personaly don´t see this happening, as Mr.Cipriani is under investigation for deveating money from the company, causing it´s bankrupcy.

    nice day fellas.
    Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
     
    JUANR
    Posts: 837
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:09 am

    WOW!! It looks like someone is getting sensible here!!

    Hardivw I was only pointed what was the thing you wrote that was inaccurate; If I did not mention anything about reply No.5 was because I had nothing to say about it since it was true (more or less).

    As for my preference for an eventual pilots' offer yes, I would rather ANY offer for AV that would mean that the Airline would remain COLOMBIAN, now, as Bongo wrote here, it is not the Airline of Colombia anymore.

    As for the points you stated on reply No. 18

    1. It was a quote from Ducth news in Amsterdam.
    Watch out for your sources man, If I were looking for Colombian news that just ocurred in the US my last source would be a Dutch newspaper.

    2. Apparently you did not read my reply 6. Please see my Reply 6, which contains ALL the information, and therefore overides my Reply 5. My post 6 says that Colombia Coffee Associate retained 25% stake. ok??

    I read it, it looks like you got so touchy that you couldn't read mt reply 17

    3. Synergy group bought AVIANCA.
    That is what we are talking about here.

    4. If you have any problems let me know! ok????
    Well I DO have a problem with those new airliners.net members who think that they know everything and keep critizicing every thing the rest of as say, and you are included among them. Now what are you going to do?


    As for Southamerica's departure: Farewell, I won't miss him here.

    ------
    Even though, there is still a small chance that the pilots offer will be hear, take a look at the interviews that were given early this morning on W Radio FM Colombia, they have interesting points of view.

    Juan
    SKBO
    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
     
    MATURRO727
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:37 am

    Hey


    typically ! SOUTHAMERICA enters to the forum and the problems begin ! ja ja very rare ha ?

    Now im agree(in some aspects) with Juanr, I would go to anybody rather than Mr. German Efromovich, well not anybody but at least hear something better, i got very poor arguments about these but is just a kind of bad feeling.
    Anyway im not agree in the part that AV pilots would manage or own the airline.

    Now off record question: knowing that AF bought KL does that remove the title of the world oldest airline ??? and also knowing that synergy or Ocianair "bought" AV, this removes AV's title of the second oldest airline in the world or oldest in America ?


    Regards

    MATURRO727


     
    RCS763AV
    Posts: 3645
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:58 am

    Maturro: Remember AV was bought by the Synergy Group, not by OceanAir, so AV will still be the 2nd oldest airline in the world...Efromovich stated that AV will mantain its identity. (Though there is a minimal chance of reverting the deal)
     
    MATURRO727
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:47 am

    Hey:

    RCS763av: so technically AV would pass to be the oldest ?

    Cheers

    MATURRO727
     
    User avatar
    tavong
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:02 am

    Amturro even you maybe can see the same thing that happened when Texas International took over Continental, they used the Continental tittles instead of the Texas International ones, if OceanAir and Avianca mixes up their operations it's certainly true that the name to survive here is Avianca but it's only an option, i think that the operations rearely would mix up.....who knows.

    Gus
    SKBO
    Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
     
    ghost77
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:35 am

    I suggest you stop losing your time on other things that are not really what you are truly interested in, which is Brazilian aviation itself, as it seems that nobody cares about these type of news, and ironically the only one is a foreign user as yourself. Don't be let down by users who judge your posts either, as they don't even have the spirit to post the news translated into English, they are only here to critisize the little details and not to share valuable arguments about the general topic.

    Hardiwv - Point for Southa! And I totally agree with him! Stop losing your time in vague discussions going nowhere with other not very friendly users. Not even Colombians take the time to post the most recent news and even less, they will translate! Fortunately there are some exceptions and serious Colombians, but minority!


    Believe me, Colombian topics are a total disaster and I've surely had a better time staying away from them. They are an effective user-repellent. For the time being, keep sharing with us your news about Varig, TAM or Brazil in general, which I by far enjoy as they seem they generate far more real interesting discussions about aviation.

    Agree! Colombian posts are a toooooootal disaster! 4 out of 5 replies its the continuation of previous battles. Im really interested in things and changes going on in LatinAmerica and I think there are other users on the exact same situation, but seeing your childish discussions make me stay away from the conversations! Something you must remember! A.net its an international site! There are a lot of users from other countries reading you! You must remember that!

    SouthA - Welcome to my RUL!

    As for the topic, I hope the best for AV! Recently Colombia's Aviation has been a total disaster... Summa Alliance, ACES leaving, Avianca lost and quietly loosing the power it used to have in the past, their fleet has recently been downsizing instead of growing, they faced problems with Chp. 11.

    A lot of Colombians might think they loose a lot seeing Brazilian's buying a stake of their 'flag carrier', but stop thinking on that! Think positive and expect this is much better than seeing AV grounded, leaving and not returning, seeing planes in white scheme's returning to the lessor, loosing jobs, Colombian airports dominated by foreign carriers or become the next Perú of the continent.


    Ricardo APM

    Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
     
    RCS763AV
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:53 am

    Yes maturro, AV would pass to be the oldest...nice huh?

    Ghost: Usually Colombian posts go crazy because people get mad at southamerica for his unstoppable criticism. You cant say anything because 2 posts later you will find him saying negative things about your reply.

    [Edited 2004-11-18 03:55:30]
     
    TACAA320
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:48 pm

    "For the time being, keep sharing with us your news about Varig, TAM or Brazil in general, which I by far enjoy as they seem they generate far more real interesting discussions about aviation."

    Once again somebody wants to rule the rest.

    Hardiwv: Please express yourself freely!
    'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
     
    airplane
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:52 pm

    Cheers for AV !
    Only an idiot will take such a famous name away.
    My little concern is he is Brazilian. I have a very bad taste about them.

    Southamerica, if you don't like the show, change the channel. Take a chill pill buddy !

    JP
    The sky´s the limit
     
    erikwilliam
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:57 pm

    Airplane:
    I´m sorry man, but why exactly do U have a bad taste about brazilians?
    Can u say that from previous enconter with brazilians or because the massive brazilian presence in Ecuador is bad for U?!?!?

    I think U should read before posting, and if u read there´s enough replyes that states Sinergy won´t change the name or anything, they´ll just try to save the company and make money out of it.

    and ps. this Brazilian idiot is just the owner of the largest private oil group in brazil, and has a litle fortune of USD1bilion, enough for U.

    I think this post have gone way too far. Spas(renato) and HArdi among others tried to add things and jerks like SOUTHAMERICA just bashed it all over.
    It´s a shame, the post could´ve added very interesting points.]

    Have a nice day guys.
    Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
     
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    tavong
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:25 pm

    Well apparto of getting in a real figth well can anyone put your tougths about Synergy and Avianca?

    -Do you think that uanemilio Posada will leave?

    -Do you think that routes will be slashed or added?

    -What do you think about the fleet?? (I know already that they won't be buying any new plane until 2008-2010 but maybe a little speculation over here)

    Well i hope to hear from you....


    Gus
    SKBO
    Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
     
    hardiwv
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:07 pm

    Airplane:

    What??????? This thread is RIDICULOUS!

    I should never EVER posted any comment here....

    Erikwilliam, let's get out of here.

    Good luck,
     
    CHRISBA777ER
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:15 pm

    Im in the middle of a credit report for Avianca and have just finished my fleet review / ops review section.

    Now that Eframovich is in charge, we may see more 757s in the short term, and i think the ideal ac for AVs trunk route and long haul stuff, from BOG to GRU/EWR/MIA/MAD/CDG/FRA/LHR/CCS etc you want an efficient widebody in the 250 seat class. You will require a high MTOW version, with the legs to do Colombia and Brazil to Europe non-stop. I think the A332 would be ideal. I'd evenn go as far as saying that the long-range 7E7 or A350 would suit even better.

    Eframovich would do well to consider the PR value of a 7E7 order now - it will show he means business and restore faith in him from the no doubt skeptical pilots and staff at Avianca, and also i suspect Boeing would cut him a fabulous deal rigth now just to secure the order in lieu of the A332. Piggy back the 7E7 order with some 73NGs, (a couple for Oceanair perhaps?) and i think he would get a really excellent deal. Eframovich certainly has the financial muscle and equity in his businesses to secure financing easily - strike while the iron is hot - thats my thoughts.

    But in reality i suspect that the 757 / 767 partnership will continue for a while yet as he doesnt know how things lie with the acquisition and he will need to settle things with the unions before he can order - i doubt we will see an order before December 2006.
    What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
     
    komododx
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:27 pm

    Juanr,

    Believe me that finding news in a Dutch newspaper is much better than finding it in El Tiempo, La Republica, Portafolio, etc... Have you even seen their spelling? I still don't understand how El Tiempo can be Colombia's most important newspaper (Unless you live in Cali and think it's El Pais) and they still get away with false information in so many of their articles.

    KdX in TLH
    I'm homeless and unemployed
     
    JUANR
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:43 pm

    Komododx: You truly have o point here, certainly El Tiempo is a crap since they are the only national newspaper nowadays; the point is that it is better to go to the most direct source available, and it was a Colombian source or an American source, not a Dutch. Have you ever play “broken telephone”  Big grin

    Juan
    SKBO
    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
     
    miamiair
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:08 pm

    AV run be the pilots wouls be an aoutright financial disaster. AV would be back in bankruptcy court in a year if that were the case.
    Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
     
    av757
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:15 pm

    A332 is no good out of BOG it is highly restricted and limited in TOGW for long haul flights due to its not so spectacular performance at high altitude and high temperature airports, also cost wise extremely expensive.

    Brand new airplanes such as the 777, 7E7, 737NG and A340 or A350 are in the major leagues and out of the question to acquire at today's costs, leasing them at the going rate right now is now almost triple of what is being paid a month for the 767, and economic situation of the company which at the moment is not so productive would make its cost prohibitive.

    Leasing these is also extremely expensive cost wise and right now out of reach for the company, 757's in good flyable condition are very hard to find in the desert and there are very few left in storage and not many are thinking of retiring theirs for now. So the only planes left with reasonable prices are second hand 767's.

    We will have to see if Sinergy is really going to to out on the limb and invest real hard cash in this airline, not just some miserable 64 million US Dollars, and without any significant guarantee or responsibility acquired on their part for the debts they supposedly will respond for; and much less from the Colombian Coffee Growers Federation which financially speaking doesn't shine either.

    What I see is basically a reduction in fleet types and a commonality in airplane families.

    AV757
     
    CHRISBA777ER
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:46 am

    I disagree AV757 - i agree with you re. 757s - gonna be tough to source with good frame / cycles on them (normally they come from the US) - but they are out there if needed.

    I also think that there are 767s available on very attractive rates for lease due to the 777 and A330s that are beginning to appear on the leasing market. I dont have numbers to hand but ill give Ansett, SALE, and GECAS a call later if you want - i need to speak to them anyway about another airline im doing. Can the 76 do BOG - europe non-stop? I know AV used to serve LHR with a -200ER, but i dont think that was direct was it? Then again, BA have sent the 763ER to BOG before havent they? I think its an off-season thing - they alternate between the 763 and 772 dont they? Dont know for sure - feel free to correct me. Anyway im sure these go via CCS dont they?

    No reason why the A340 cant be acquired, but as IB cant do MAD-BOG non-stop both ways with a 313X then i cant see how it would be suitable for AV. Any 500/600s could do it easily, but then you are talking about newbuilds and these are very expensive - would need to have even larger investment into the airline i think and this level seems unlikely. The 777-200ER is capable of doing it - (correct me if im wrong) but i think BA do/used to do LHR/LGW - BOG non stop with one, and their 744 definately can - AF do it non-stop to CDG, LH likewise to FRA I think.

    A332 - id have thought it would have the legs - dont Air Madrid do MAD-BOG non-stop with one? This is the best suited aircraft i think, as it can do high density stuff round SA superbly well, but have the legs to do runs to Europe, East Coast US, and even CPT if they ever got round to doing the route.

    Lease rates on used 744s are low and getting lower, and there will be many coming onto the market in the next couple of years as more 777-300ER and A346s come online, so availability wont be a problem - but is there the traffic to support one? Without a codeshare with an airline that doesnt already fly there - eg SAS, Alitalia (?), TAP, Spanair, Swiss etc - then no way. Its too big a step.

    So that leaves the 767, the A332, or the 7E7. 76s will be far, far cheaper than both the others both in terms of ICO and also for fleet integration - and are pretty easy to get hold of.

    Question is - can they do BOG - Europe non-stop? I'll stick my neck out (im guessing here) and say yes but only with payload restrictions. They are a better size though, but with the amount of cargo AV would pick up in and out of Europe, they just wouldnt cut it. I stand by the A332 - its got the belly space to make the route pay, and even if its half empty back in Y, the higher yield pax that you are near enough guaranteed on the route would make it a very profitable operation. They do prefer non-stop flights though.

    Of course im basing the whole of AVs fleet renewal strategy on routes to Europe that really are not that important to them at the moment, and i suspect that we will see the bare minimum of inter-Europe ops till market conditions improve and more capable aircraft are more cheaply available - whilst consolidating the home market and investing in IFE, service, and improving and modernising the image of the carrier - building up a market at home first, then expanding the Europe runs once the stability is there, and perhaps enough equity has been built up to acquire aircraft new.

    Thats what i think will happen - ive outlined what is required if new long-haul aircraft are required and for the routes they will be required to perform, but i do think that the home markets need stabilising first.

    Wish they would bring the old orange livery back though.  Smile
    What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
     
    JUANR
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:01 am

    Chris:

    AV flies daily to MAD on 767-200, non-stop, planes almost always full; When they flew to LHR, FRA and CDG they used the 767s non-stop as well (except for a short them in which the flight to FRA stopped at SJU. About the BA flight, after the B747 was retired from the route the B767 and B777 stopped in CCS (also in Barbados and Port Spain at some point). I've heard that the B763 do not meet the range to fly BOG-Europe non-stop but the B767-200 do.

    On the other side, Air Madrid flights have to stop inbound and outbound in CTG due to billateral agreement policies, but I'm sure the A332 could do it, however given that the B767s have been for a while in AV fleet I think it could be better to get more of them and not change to an unkown aicraft type. But who knows...

    Of course we are talking here on things that would happen if the airlines will still be there for a while...which I am not too sure about.

    Juan
    SKBO
    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
     
    airplane
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:11 am

    In deed,
    when the Canedo cowboys acquired Ecuatoriana, they ran that company like a convenience store. They trashed the image, they treated the employees like slaves, they hired the most ignorant people in the world to manage the company, and the maintenance was inhuman.
    The couldn't do a worst job with that airline. They they had this ego like they were there to take over the world.

    Don't take it personal,
    and Southamerica is not a jerk, he only has anger management problems.

    JP
    The sky´s the limit
     
    CHRISBA777ER
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:11 am

    Thanks Juan - appreciated.
    What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
     
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    tavong
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:13 am

    762ER yes they can Do BOG-Europe Non-Stop you see that every day :P
    B763ER With some kind of diffulty but they do (But AV757 please correct me on these one cause i'm not sure)

    A332 Yes they can do but has AV757 said they can't to the rute without several Weigth restrictions.

    B7E7 Yes they are supposed to do that work but until the thing flies would be very difficult to know.

    A340-600 Of course they do the Job, just has the A340-313X They fit on the job perfectly but has said the leases are way out the hands of Avianca at this time....

    B772 Can do the job if fitted in the rigth way BA used them but has the B763 they operated them via CCS. I think 777-200LR Does it perfeclty but men it's too Expensive, enve at thistimes Finding a good second-hand 744 is a good idea but i realyl doubt that AV can fill it to make that thing profitable.

    *sigths* Anyway what we hope at these days is that Synergy does things well and the already known bunch of F-50, M-83s, B757, B767s keep flying in the AV Colors for a good number of days no matter if the fleet is Old.

    Gus
    SKBO

    Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
     
    JUANR
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:16 am

    Gus:

    I think AV can easily fill a B744 on the BOG-MAD and BOG-JFK routes.

    Juan
    SKBO
    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
     
    av757
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:09 am

    BOG-MAD non stop full load of passengers:

    767-200 no restrictions.
    767-300 with a stopover at CTG, BAQ or CCS.
    757-200 via SJU, LIS.
    777-200 with 96.000lb thrust engines or more, no restrictions.
    747-200 is too large for the historical pax volume of 210 passengers during high season, normal average pax load on the 767-200 is 152 passengers. A Combi with 250 seats rest in cargo is a good compromise, but fuel wise can be expensive to operate.

    A332 is operated by Air Madrid MAD-CTG-BOG-CTG-MAD for maximum load, it is heavily penalized and restricted in both passenger and cargo loads when it does BOG-MAD non stop.

    A340-300 too large passenger volume and extremely limited compared to the 767 out of BOG, operational cost is very expensive with AV actual loads.

    The longest long haul, full load, no restriction flight operated by Avianca non stop to Europe was BOG-FRA-BOG in B767-200's at an average seasonal duration of 11:30 flight time due to winds over the Atlantic.

    Regards:
    AV757
     
    Summa767
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:17 am

    Thank you very much AV757 for providing the technical info, which I always find very interesting. So it'll be the same sort of fleet for the moment then, and then we'll have to see.
    As I have sad before, with the potential that Colombia and Latin America have, Avianca should have a long and successful future that should bring growth. For the domestic and regional traffic, I have a feeling that Mr Efromovich would be biased for the Embraer family, especially the 170/190. Or perhaps it is me who wants it, as I do have a pechant for thase types.
     
    JUANR
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    RE: Avianca Case: And The Winner Is...

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:33 am

    Summa767 that is a good point, the one related to the embraers as regional planes, however, do you know if an Embraer 170/190 can land in relatively small airports like Manizales, Armenia, Pasto, Ibagué or Neiva? Certainly Satena has proven that E-145 could be a good choice too!

    Juan
    SKBO
    Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!