EnviroTO
Topic Author
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:03 pm

Why doesn't Air Canada have any service to Yellowknife YZF or Iqaluit YFB? I remember Canadian Airlines used to serve these territorial capitals. It also seems that in the past Vancouver to Whitehorse YXY service seemed to do quite well, although I see that it is now handled with CRJs. It would probably be possible to run a YXY - YZF - YYZ - YFB - YYZ - YZF - YXY trip in less than 24 hours with an A319. I don't think the CRJ 200 can pull off YFB-YYZ, but perhaps the CRJ 200 LR or the CRJ 700s can. With one aircraft to provide the service at near full utilization, decreased trip times for many passengers going to these places due to direct routing (2-3 hours shorter than YYZ to YXY through YVR), and easy access to cities on the Canadian and US east coast through AC's main hub, wouldn't this service be able to make money running once a day?

Booking in January YVR-YXY is $825, YEG-YZF is $790, and YOW-YFB is $1603. Seems pricey, especially considering YEG and YOW don't offer as many connection possibilities as YYZ. You would think AC could charge more if they provided more convenient service.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:40 pm

The real money in those routes is in freight. Note that First Air, is rumoured to be converting old AC B767-200s into freighters!

Canadi>n, and its predecessors PWA, Nordair, EPA, and Transair were very successful when flying into the near and far arctic. However, when First Air became Innuit owned, the locals preferred their "own" airline. In the late 90s the arctic flying of Canadi>n North became far less profitable, and gradually was shut down in the eastern arctic.

The western arctic operation was of course sold to Air Norterra, another northern company, and now has the rights to the brand "Canadian North".

Trust me, as Canadian travelers, we are spoiled. You wont see any $79 fares from Montreal to Iqualuit. And, if there was money in flying passengers in the arctic, Westjet and Jetsgo would have been there long ago!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:16 pm

I think Air Canada is happy to leave this very specialized market to operators with the proper equipment for the service. The 727 and 737 combis are good work horses for the market and its needs.

I would suggest that a once a day spoke is not worth the effort. Who would do your ground handling etc? Too much hassle for once a day.

If you do get the chance they are interesting places to visit. To get the full experience head up in January.
700 hours and counting...
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:43 am

Air Canada don't fly the route, simply because it's not their kind of flying. With Canadi>n North and First Air, the market is covered pretty well, and their aircraft (First Air's 721, 722, and 732 Combis and Canadian North's 732 Combis) are about as close to perfect as it gets for this kind of route. Air Canada's aircraft (CRJs, A319s, etc) wouldn't be worth s*** on the route.

Accually, Air Canada was into this kind of flying for a while. Canadi>n created their "Canadi>n North", and Air Canada also pulled basicly the same stunt and got "NWT Air". But Canadi>n sold Canadian North to the NorTerra group (which is why the official name now is Air NorTerra) which continues to operate with the name Canadian North, and a little while before that Air Canada sold NWT Air to First Air, which has merged it into First.




CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
Goose
Posts: 1771
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:20 am

Trust me, as Canadian travelers, we are spoiled. You wont see any $79 fares from Montreal to Iqualuit. And, if there was money in flying passengers in the arctic, Westjet and Jetsgo would have been there long ago!

The good money is in cargo to the Far North; I remember conx freight on CP, going through YZF to points north that would take priority over anything, including bags....

I think WestJet and JetsGo aren't interested in the low yields they'd experience in terms of pax. Their cargo operations aren't set up to run a large-scale freight operation to the north on their existing equipment, either.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Quad Otter
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:13 am

The only reason First Air has been able to prosper in the north is not from the support of the locals flying on a "native owned" airline, it all has to do with the Canada Post Food Mail contract which First Air has had sewn up for the past 12 years or so. If they lost that contract to lets say CDN North, they would suffer accordingly. The reason they are looking at getting a couple of B767's for freighters is because that Food Mail contract is coming due next year and Canada Post suggested rather strongly that they get bigger equipment, to reduce the amount of weekly freighters needed to uplift the load to YVP and YFB.

Time will tell if they actually do get the B767's or keep on flying those very high time B727's.

All in all, they are a very good company in terms of service to the northern communities they serve.

QO
 
EnviroTO
Topic Author
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:16 am

Then why doesn't First Air or Canadian North provide any YYZ flights from YZF or YFB? With so many connections in Toronto, I wonder why there isn't a market for passengers or freight direct to YYZ instead of only YOW and YEG.
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:39 am

The historical centers of business and support have are between YOW and YEG for the Eastern and Western north respectively. Don't underestimate the amount of government travel from YOW to YFB as it is the territorial capital.

There is not a lot of connecting traffic that would justify flights to YYZ. Only 6,000 people live in YFB and just 28,000 in the whole of the Nunavut territory. The market just isn't there.
700 hours and counting...
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:23 am

First Air code shares with Air Canada and I think CDN North does too. The reason YFB is served to YOW and not YYZ is because of the amount of government travel. The YFB-YOW route always does well and a lot of them are government employee's who need to go to YOW.
 
EnviroTO
Topic Author
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:30 pm

I have always wanted to check out the territories but YOW-YFB at $1603 is the same price as two tickets and hotel in Florida for a week.
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:25 pm

I have always wanted to check out the territories but YOW-YFB at $1603 is the same price as two tickets and hotel in Florida for a week

That's what Aeroplan is for  Smile/happy/getting dizzy In 1999, my parents were able to book YYZ-YRT for 15,000 Cdn Plus points as it was classed as a shorthaul, since then they have closed the loophole.
 
XNV
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2000 1:45 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:24 am

A few notes:

Air Canada used to serve the North via NWTAir which it wholly owned as one of its "connectors" just like it had AirBC, AirOntario, AirAlliance, and AirNova. In 1997 it sold NWT air off to First Air and shortly thereafter combined all others into Air Canada Regional, which as you all know eventually became Jazz. First Air retained codesharing on certain routes (the old NWTAir routes) with Air Canada until 2001.

Canadian North was also a wholly-owned connector of Canadian Airlines International - just like Canadian Regional. It sold off the airline to the NorTerra group around 1998 thereby becoming a Northern-owned airline. CAIL (and later AC) operated Canadian North as a wet lease until around 2002 when Canadian North got it's own operating certificate.

Neither airline codeshares with Air Canada anymore, however both accept and redeem Aeroplan, and both have joint published fares with Air Canada.

The passenger volumes just are not there for low-cost carriers to serve these routes. Apparently Westjet discussed flying YEG-YZF a few years ago, and even had it posted on their map of potential future destinations at their call centre. The problem is many passengers connect from outlying communities which decreases the local traffic opportunities. YZF has a population of around 18,000 - when WestJet goes into a community it usually has a catchment area of 100,000 or more, which YZF does not provide. First Air and Canadian North also provide a lot of frequency on this route (too much I think) some days there are 8 or more 737s in each direction.

YFB-YOW is about a 3-hour flight - and if you look at a map around YFB there are not a lot of alternates around. Try finding a plane that can fly a full load of passengers and bags that distance and hold a decent alternate - I don't think a CRJ will do it.

YZF-YYZ is a long flight and geographically out of the way. It would be over 4 hours to fly that route. YEG is the closest major centre and you can easily connect out of there to YYZ, YVR, YYC, YOW - some of the more popular onward destinations. People who live in YXY are usually heading to YVR and don't want to stop in YZF along the way. Air Canada serves YXY-YVR and Air North serves YXY-YVR and YXY-YEG-YYC anyways.

A lot of freight moves on these planes - that's why you can have a 737 with 40 or passengers flying YFB-YOW making money. I'm just not sure what will happen when the 737 and 727 combis retire. I did hear the First Air 767 rumour a while ago too, although I think I actually heard A300/310 talk. I think First Air had a 757 they were using for cargo with DHL a few years ago but I could be wrong about that, maybe it was a rumour too.

If you want to see the North use your Aeroplan points. 25,000 will get you YEG-YYZ return (which you can find for about $300), but it can also get you MIA-YSR return (which would cost $3200 or so).
 
Rattibone
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:51 am

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:30 am

"First Air code shares with Air Canada and I think CDN North does too"

First Air used to codehare with Air Canada when 7F took over NWT Air from Air Canada. Once that deal was done, within a year or so, the codeshares no longer exist.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: Why No Air Canada Service In YZF And YFB?

Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:36 am

I wonder why there isn't a market for passengers or freight direct to YYZ instead of only YOW and YEG.

As an ex-7F employee, I can tell you the market for a YYZ nonstop just isn't there. AC feeds YYZ pax to YOW then onto 7F or 5T...on average, no more than 20/day. Like Tnsaf said, Ottawa has the natural ties to the eastern arctic and Edmonton to the west and Vancouver for the Yukon. That's why 7F & 5T have 12x weekly combined YOW-YFB flights, while YUL-YFB is flown only 3x weekly by 7F and even those only work due to a stop in YVP - Kuujjuaq.

So to shock everyone here, YYZers have to hub through YOW when heading to the far north. Yes even from the centre of the universe you can't get everywhere nonstop.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 9vswr, admanager, airlinebuilder, AS512, brandnsn, caleb1, CIDFlyer, eta unknown, Gemuser, Google Adsense [Bot], legacyins, N809FR, PA727, qfatwa, SEQU, USAirKid and 189 guests