Noise
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Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:55 am

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1100696817493_44/?hub=TopStories

Plans for new Toronto-area airport unveiled
CTV.ca News Staff

Thirty years after the first controversial plan was introduced, the Greater Toronto Airports Authority announced its revised plans on Wednesday to build a $2-billion Pickering airport which would serve as a "regional reliever".


Within a couple of hours, protesters were speaking out against the airport.

Stephen Frederick, president of Voters Organized to Cancel Airport Lands and about two dozen other people were picketing against the airport near the GTAA Pickering office.


Frederick told CTV's CFTO News, "The airport system in southern Ontario is operating at about 35 per cent of total capacity. We do not need another airport for at least 20 years."


But GTAA Vice-President of Corporate Affairs and Communications Steve Shaw said that if forecasts are correct, 30 years down the road, Pearson will be operating at 50 million passengers and Hamilton at 9 million.


If demand allowed for it, the three-runway international airport in Pickering would eventually have capacity for more than 11 million travellers a year, and generate $5-billion a year, Shaw announced Wednesday.

"Pearson will always be the international major facility but clearly there is a need for regional facilities." Shaw said, "General aviation needs to be accommodated. Pearson cannot handle that.''


Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said he wants to know more about how the proposal would affect the other airports.


One of the questions that I'm asking is `What about the future of the Hamilton airport?','' McGuinty said, "I've got a real concern about some of the challenges that Hamilton has been up against recently and we'll see how the Pickering proposal fits in with all that.''


The federal government will have the final say after conducting an environmental assessment on the green space, which could take three to four years.

The Pickering airport would mean the end for Oshawa and Markham's Buttonville airports.

"Buttonville and Oshawa have a limited life. Clearly they are limited facilities," he said.


The GTAA has been supporting Buttonville with the understanding that it would close when the Pickering airport opened.

The Pickering airport is slated to open in 2012 for general purposes including recreational and company aircraft and flying schools.

By 2032, the airport will have built a passenger terminal that will accommodate about 10 million passengers a year -- about 20 per cent of the 50 million travellers who will then be going through Pearson airport in Toronto.

This news comes more than 30 years after the federal government began expropriating land for a second international airport in Toronto. The government purchased 7,350 hectares of land in north Pickering in 1972, displacing about 2,000 people.

The project was thrown out, following public and provincial criticism.

Of the original land, 2,251 hectares is reserved as green space on the south slope of the Oak Ridges Moraine. Another 800 hectares is part of the Rouge Valley corridor, which became a park in 1990.

That leaves less than 4,500 hectares of the expropriated land for the new airport -- 2.5 times the size of Pearson. It has been used partly for agricultural purposes. Laws imposed by Ottawa in the late 1990s meant the land was held for airport development. Frederick calls the airport a "complete waste of resources."

"The whole issue of an airport in Pickering has been divisive from Day 1," Pickering Mayor Dave Ryan told The Globe and Mail. "It's been problematic for us in that it has been there for 30 years without much movement, one way or the other. It's good that this is going to bring it to a conclusion."

Markham Mayor Don Cousens has said the project could be beneficial to the York region economy, but that he wants to know whether infrastructure will be built leading to the airport, and who will pay for it.

Shaw said the GTAA's has plans to link the airport to existing and planned roads. He also referred to Highway 407 as a route which would be used to reach the airport.


Shaw rejected critics' claims that the Pickering airport would turn out to be Ontario's Mirabel, an international airport in Montreal where passenger traffic ceased a few weeks ago.


"This is a different role, serves a different purpose, it's a different time and has a different need. Clearly this is a regional reliever," he said.


A draft of the plan will be available to the public on the Airport Authority's website on Thursday.
 
gmonney
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:00 am

Hey thats in my back yard... I guess you might say that it could be similar to a SFB, when I was there last christmas, and I am going this January, there is a substantial amount of GA traffic and aircraft parked there. I know that YKZ is good most of the GA stuff but is unexpandable for anything other than prop and small business stuff. Magna's Falcon can't depart with full fuel cause of the short rwy...

I think if its to replace YKZ and YOO then that might be a good idea, only time will tell,

Grant
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Noise
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:15 am

I don't know, I don't understand the need of a "reliever" airport if YYZ isn't at its capacity. The mater plan for YYZ calls for a capacity of 55 million by 2025. That means that buy 2025, the terminal building will be able to handle 55 million, but I doubt that YYZ's actual passenger traffic will be that high by then (but I could be wrong). Why not just simply expand YYZ? Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly are the benefits to having a two airport system? It's not like an airline like Air Canada can take advantage of this because connections will be impossible if one flight lands at Pickering, and the connecting flight departs at YYZ. Would AC keep ALL of its traffic at YYZ, leaving Pickering for airlines such as JetsGo, WestJet, and other North American airlines?
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:38 am

When you have to drive for hour and a half to go to Pearson to catch a plane,
You will know why Pickering needs an airport.
Its' always better for a city to have a two mid size airports than one mega airport.

if this airport is built, at least Pearson will get some competition and GTAA will at least try to control some of the expenses, given that GTAA dont' get the contract to run the pickering airport.


[Edited 2004-11-18 01:40:37]
 
ac7e7
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:43 am


if this airport is built, at least Pearson will get some competition and will be forced to reduce their landing fees and at least try to control some of the expenses.

I doubt that you will see a drop in landing fees. The GTAA will control the new Pickering facility.

 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:59 am

Toronto has three times the population than Montréal.
it can support a secondary airport unlike Montréal.
The Mirable airprot was too far from the city, but Pickering has huge population base from Kingston to Scarborough.


[Edited 2004-11-18 03:11:45]
 
a380
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveil

Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:08 am

I agree with AirbusCanada. I live in Scarborough and on an average work week, Monday to Friday, I would like to fly from Pickering instead of fighting the traffic to YYZ. Actually it will be good for anyone living east of Yonge Street. However Pickering may not be useful on Sat and Sun though, so the economics may not be there. Anyway it will take a generation for anything to happen, given how things are going in Canada  Smile
 
Noise
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:26 am

Toronto has three times the population than Montréal.

Correction, the population of Toronto is not three times that of Montreal. Toronto Metro has a population of 5 million, while Montreal Metro has a population of 3.5 million. Do that math, that's 1.42 times the population, not 3 times.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:08 pm

The east side of Toronto needs a small GA/regional airport.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:09 pm

One question comes to mind!

Where the f#@! is Pickering!!!

us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Noise
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:13 pm

East of Scarborough, west of Oshawa.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:22 pm

Second & third questions that comes to mind!

Why would you build and airport there?

What's wrong with YTZ, YKZ and YZD?
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveil

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:23 pm

If they had proper airport rail service to Pearson people in Scarborough and Pickering wouldn't need to drive and hour and a half. Unfortunately the government would need vision for that so it will never happen. Instead of a GTA wide GO Airport service we will get a $25 one-way trip Union to Pearson service that only helps out-of-towners and people living downtown.
 
yhmfan
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:45 pm

YYZ already has a reliever. It is called YHM!!

Distance from Hamilton to YYZ 65km
Distance from Pickering to YYZ 52km

Are we really going to build a new airport when one is already sitting there almost at the same distance?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
a380
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveil

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:07 pm

However, the route from YYZ to YHM is brutal at best, for us east-siders.
 
yhmfan
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:18 pm

the route from YYZ to YHM is brutal at best, for us east-siders

True if you live on the east side.

Access to YHM will improve greatly once the new highway 6 is finished.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
captaingomes
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:21 pm

Thanks for posting that Chris, I was not aware of this latest development.

I agree with EnviroTO, in that far more efficient ground transportation is really the key for ensuring YYZ is properly serving Toronto's citizens.

The most important role of the Pickering Airport, in my mind, is to consolidate Oshawa's, Buttonville's, and the Island Airport's services into one, larger facility to serve those east of Toronto. This should bring greater efficiencies, and also diminish the environmental impact of having numerous airports in different neighbourhoods.

Finally, my opinion is that you will not see Jetsgo, Canjet, or other small airlines move to Pickering, but rather they might offer very limited services, much like what happens currently in Hamilton.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
B747-437B
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:23 pm

Are we really going to build a new airport when one is already sitting there almost at the same distance?

The entire point of building Pickering is so that GTAA doesn't continue to be vulnerable through YHM undercutting their ridiculous fees at YYZ. Once Toronto's reliever airport is also under GTAA control, it gives them true carte blanche to raise fees and build yet another monument.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 pm

The entire point of building Pickering is so that GTAA doesn't continue to be vulnerable through YHM undercutting their ridiculous fees at YYZ. Once Toronto's reliever airport is also under GTAA control, it gives them true carte blanche to raise fees and build yet another monument.

While I'm not arguing your point, so far it seems as though Hamilton has failed to really put a dent in the revenues of the GTAA. There is very limited regional service, some cargo operations, and the occasional southern charter flight, plus a modicum of biz jet and flight training activity at YHM. This cannot seriously threaten the GTAA enough that they would want to build a second airport to fight off YHM, which of course adds tremendous cost, and strains limited resources.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:45 pm

The entire point of building Pickering is so that GTAA doesn't continue to be vulnerable through YHM undercutting their ridiculous fees at YYZ.

No. The point of Pickering is to serve the eastern side of Toronto. The land was set aside in 1972 long before these YHM-GTAA rivalries.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:04 pm

If you look at their proposals, the Pickering site will be serviced by..."gasp''...a rail link. Plus linkage to the much underutilized portion of the 407, and you have an airport that is extremely easy to get to, as compared to Pearson.

When the first phase opens, the airport will have limited commercial service, but rather serve as a replacement for Oshawa and Buttonville. But with 2.5 times the amount of land that Pearson has, I can see in the very distant future that this airport may take over as the defacto international gateway out of Toronto.

But very very distant, mind you. I think they're only opening two runways at the beginning. And in the literature, it seems that the airport will have facilities to serve cargo and flight training, so perhaps the use at the beginning will be to attract smaller customers to the airport rather than seeing AC move in there.

Is it worth the expense? I don't know whether or not Toronto really does need another airport. But the first phase of development seems quite conservative, so I'm cautiously optimistic that this won't be another white elephant.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:13 pm

the Pickering site will be serviced by..."gasp''...a rail link

Great. More subsidies for VIA coming up....  Insane
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:44 pm

Living in the area, I can truly appreciate the future need of an airport in Pickering.

One thing that people keep forgetting is how fast Toronto and the GTA in specific is growing. It's not going to stop any time soon guys..

I took a very quick look last night through the master plan that is on the GTAA website, and it appears that they definitely are not planning for this to happen tomorrow. There's other things that need to take place prior to the 'larger' commercial airport being built.. namely:

1) Road construction --> Only 1 major highway that still isn't completed (407), plus 2 lane roads in all directions in the local area. CLEARLY not viable for a commercial airport.

2) Support services --> Natural gas lines, sewer services, water services etc. These need to be built up and expanded as it's currently available, but again not for a commercial airport.

3) Pearson needs to be running at or near capacity. --> This could come faster OR slower than anticipated.

The problem that all governmental agencies have is that in the past, there's a "lets build it AFTER the fact". I.E, highways, support infrastructure, etc.

It looks like to me that the GTAA in conjunction with the Federal Government may actually have a winning idea on their hands here if in fact they follow their own timelines. There WILL be need for a second airport east of Toronto in the future.

Don't forget, it's not just the GTAA that's growing. Communities east of the GTAA (Newcastle, Bowmanville, Cobourg, Belleville, Trenton etc) are growing too. The more people that are in the east and north, the more need there will be for a second airport.

It's already tough to try to get to Pearson when you have a flight. Traffic alone is killer.

Just my $0.02.

The sad thing is that I really won't have a place to spot until I'm retired HAHA

1011yyz
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yooyoo
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RE: Plans For New Toronto-Pickering Airport Unveiled

Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:16 am

I'm all for it !!

When will the first Pickering meet take place?.....I will host  Smile



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