JMV
Topic Author
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 4:22 am

UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:11 pm

According to an article in ATWOnline.com, UA flight attendants threaten targeted disruptions to service, otherwise known as CHAOS (creating havoc across our system). The intent, according to union leaders, is to prevent management from destroying UA.

"United Airlines has declared war on us in proposed demands in cuts to wages, benefits and work rules. If management stands by these stipulations they will destroy United Airlines. We are not going to let that happen," union leaders stated.

The article states that the targeted walkouts under CHAOS are supposed to "temporarily disrupt operations and annoy passengers while causing a steady erosion of customer support for the airline."

How do you suppose targeted walkouts by flight attendants that are designed to "annoy passengers while causing a steady erosion of customer support for the airline" will prevent the destruction of UA?


http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4755
Google begins where my brain ends! ©
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:14 pm

They will not get passenger support or empathy. It could be the ruination to UA. Then they will not have an airline ( or jobs) to create CHAOS. Very foolish idea!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:14 pm

Who is destroying who, here!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:17 pm

Well, typical short-sightedness on the part of another airline union. As if this is gong to impress anyone. What it will do is drive more customers away from UA and further hurt that struggling airline.

Foolish move, which could have bad results for UA.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:41 pm


Well according to the railway labor act (which governs airline employees) any labor actions which result in unapproved work action (any labor disputes resulting in work action must go through a federal mediator and once that mediator declares an impasse there must be a 30 day cooling off period before any work action can happen) will result in termination of the participating employees. The original CHAOS program was waged by AS FA's and it was done only after their cooling off period. So these are just big words for now. Anyone who is foolish enough to participate can look for a new job!

-m

 Big thumbs up

 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:17 pm


The Railway Labor Act, seems to be designed to help management. Is this the intention.

First the dispute has to go to the Federal Mediator.

Then the Federal Mediator has reach an impasse.

Then there is an additional 30 day period.

Any management who can not find some way of negating the impact of the strike must be a bit slow.

Am I missing something here.
 
flybyguy
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:34 pm

The management is destroying UA, eh? It's probably in their best interests to do so, just that way their preferred stock will pay out in real cash when they liquidate. Meanwhile, at the airports, all UA employees get the shaft and a pink-slip while management jump ship with golden parashutes.

GET REAL PEOPLE... MANAGEMENT ALWAYS WINS.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
ord
Posts: 1354
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:41 pm

Unitedtristar - These don't seem to be just "big words for now." The article says "According to the union, the legally required 30-day cooling-off period before a strike does not apply when a bankruptcy court agrees to reject a contract."

I am a fan of United but the flight attendants are incredibly stupid. I work in an industry where I have clients. If I didn't like the way my company/job was going, I would never take it out on the product and service I provide my clients. I would get another job.
 
Danny
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:49 pm

"The intent, according to union leaders, is to prevent management from destroying UA."

What a bad joke! Chaos will save United. Shut down the unions and send their leaders to the doctor.
 
goingboeing
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:56 pm

The intent, according to union leaders, is to prevent management from destroying UA.

I guess that so that the unoin can destroy it instead. I sympathize with the employees of US and UA, but don't the UA FA's remember all the goodwill and support that was generated during the "summer of hell" when the pilots union held their little slowdown?

While it ain't right...the FA's should ask themselves just how badly they can hurt a group of executives who have their nice little golden parachutes nearby and will have a nice softlanding with millions of $$$ in their pockets whilst the rest of the employees can only hope for a soft spot to thud down into when the airline folds.
 
bobnwa
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:58 pm

Flybyguy,

What percentage of the management employees at UA or any airline do you think have "golden parachutes"? What percentage of the mainline pilots have about a million dollars in their 401K and vested pension plan?
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:08 am

These Union Hooligans are total idiots. I'm sorry, but I think if you are a member of a union, you pretty much become a member of a cult, along with becoming a mindless robot.

Unions served a purpose in the United States during the Industrial Revolution, but unions are what is wrong with so many of the airlines today. They have such idiotic work rules it is hard to understand them, at times.

I hope that unions continue to lose more of their power as time passes on, it certainly seems that way right now............

I'm so glad I live in a Right-to-Work state!


Jay
 
MidnightMike
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:11 am

Hello! This is what happened in the summer of 2001! People were treated like crap & refused to fly United, they think CHAOS is the answer to all of their problems, get a clue.
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goingboeing
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:16 am

What percentage of the management employees at UA or any airline do you think have "golden parachutes"?

On the other hand....how many "management employees" have real decision making power at UA or any other airline? The target of the union is "upper managment", and most likely each and every member of that group has a golden parachute.
 
ltbewr
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:33 am

This threat of 'CHAOS' may push UA to the brink of Ch. 7. While I understand the frustration of the f/a's at UA, to take it out on the passangers would be very foolish. From a lot of people being out sick, to our comming to a peak travel period, to doing miminal services to pax in flight, there could be a backlash upon them and UA. Worse, there is little support from our current Republican controlled government to recognize the serious crises many working people are in today. Perhaps a better way to protest would be to have 'informational pickets' at airport terminals, noting the perdictiment they are in under bankruptcy.
 
toltommy
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:52 am

"Unitedtristar - These don't seem to be just "big words for now." The article says "According to the union, the legally required 30-day cooling-off period before a strike does not apply when a bankruptcy court agrees to reject a contract."

ORD - That might be true for US and UA. Problem is, the AFA is trying to make it look like there will be a nationwide strike across all AFA repersented airlines. I know AirTran and Mesaba are both AFA carriers as well. The RLA, as spelled out by TriStar applies to those airlines. AirTran is in negotiations but hasn't been released into the 30 day cooling off period, and I don't believe Mesaba FA's are in negotitations at all. So for either of those groups to join in a nationwide strike would be a violation of their contracts, and probably the end of their careers. AFA knows this, but is conveniently ignoring it in order to spin a little propaganda. The union has to be scared to death about the loss of dues paying members at US, UA, and ATA.
 
azjubilee
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:59 am

You guys are missing the point... of course this is going to hurt UAL! That's the inention... or at least the spirit of the threat of CHAOS. It is the hope for UAL to get scared and to submit to the unions demands. I'm sure it is not the FAs intent to shut their company down, though some radicals would probably rather the company shut down than work for rediculous pay.

Everyone seems to remember the "summer of hell" that the pilots caused. But nobody seems to remember what they got out of it. THE BEST CONTRACT. Granted, these are different times and the company wasn't in BK. However, the intent is still the same.

No - Mesaba FAs are not in negotiation. YET.


AZJ
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:04 am

This is all the F/A's have, they are glorified drink servers. Most will lose their jobs for this. If I made a guess, UAL will do away with their contract first, and anybody causing CHAOS will be causing CHAOS in the unemployment line.

Biggest job group at UAL, and the dumbest job group at UAL.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
goingboeing
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:34 am

Granted, these are different times and the company wasn't in BK. However, the intent is still the same.

How's that saying go....The path to hell is paved with good intentions...
 
NWAFA
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:42 am

Ual777contrail,

Sad that you have such little respect for Flight Attendants. Lets just hope in an emergency that your NOT at one of our tables!

THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
kith
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:08 am

I hope flybyguy isnt at the Labor relations school at Cornell! Haha, all kidding aside I would think the UA Managment would make more money saving the compnay and jumping ship when the stock is worth more then pennies. This labor action will anger the pax, "if gramma can't be seen on xmass." It will win them no sympathy, mine included, and I feel its shamefull how little they are paid. That's the game. -Matt in KITH
 
COfaninBOS
Posts: 284
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:17 am

I am sorry, but if we didn't have unions, we'd still have child labor, no minimum wage laws (and the one we have SUCKS enough already), no weekends, and generally no say whatsoever on everyday workplace issues. Take a HISTORY class and learn some facts.

This whole anti-union, "right to work" mantra that exists in America is scary. It represents the overall move to the right of center in this country which is simply amazing when you consider that the rich keep getting richer while the rest of us keep getting worse off!

UA has been run into the ground by the management. They are the ones who get paid to make decisions regarding the overall health of the airline and yet, we are supposed to believe that flight attendants, who have seen slashed paychecks, decreased benefits, and changes in their original contracts, will be the ones to blame?
 
toltommy
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:27 am

"It represents the overall move to the right of center in this country which is simply amazing when you consider that the rich keep getting richer while the rest of us keep getting worse off!"

That's simply not true. A rising tide carries all ships. Personal wealth in this country has never been higher. Home ownership is at an all time high. Perhaps you need a history class as well. What we consider "poor" in this country is envied by the rest of the world.

Don't forget, UA went into bankruptcy while owned by the employees. They had a say in the management of the airline. In fact, they controlled it. The FA's chose not to participate in the ESOP, they didn't want to pay for their share of the company through pay cuts. The other union groups took turns raiding the cupboard, and drove the company into the state it is today.

[Edited 2004-11-19 18:30:21]
 
MidnightMike
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:59 am

Ual777contrail

A Flight Attendant is a little more than a "drink server", & though I do not support this Chaos action, but it is simply unnecessary to belittle Flight Attendant.
NO URLS in signature
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:03 am

Would you die already??? Honestly. Somebody finish the damn thing off.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
airbazar
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:21 am

Hey TOLtommy, get a grip on yourself. If I was poor and had a choice I can think a whole list of other countries I'd rather be, starting with our neighbors to the North. And I won't even mention all the benefits poor people get in countries like Sweden or Austria. So you're wrong, what we consider poor is NOT envied by the rest of the World, unless your World consists of the 50 states. Problem is, poor people don't have a choice.

And by the way, no one is saying Unions were not good in the past. In fact the opposite was said. What's in question is their usefulness today and in my opinion I too think they are what's bad with the Airline industry in this country and it's a good thing that theyir power seems to be going away little by little.
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:29 am

Well, regardless of whether it is done by a Union or not, I think the whole idea of CHAOS is a bad one, and will leave many people out of a job. However, I also see the threat of it as a reaction to bad faith on the part of management.

I think the role of F/A's is largely underrated. Remember that they are the ones who are accountable in an emergency, and that they must undergo serious training and be knowledgeable of certain procedures regarding safety. I, for one, want to see them earn a living wage as much as anyone else should be able to.

In these times, the industry is plagued by disaster, even being felt by the airlines that make a profit. The problem is that our infrastructure, including transport, is a necessity, and I'm afraid of who would fill the gap relied upon by many travellers if UA went under.

That's my take on this.
 
2H4
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:38 am

UAL 777 CONTRAIL says:

This is all the F/A's have, they are glorified drink servers.

Biggest job group at UAL, and the dumbest job group at UAL.



Honestly, is there anyone you don't hate? I've been browsing these forums since '99 or '01, and I have positively never witnessed such consistantly venomous posts.



2H4
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JOSEMEX
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:39 am

>The intent, according to union leaders, is to prevent management from destroying UA.>

...by destroying it themselves first.
 
mdsh00
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:04 am

These idiots will only have themselves to blame if UAL goes under after this. This is somewhat reminiscent of the Supermarket strike in Southern California last year. They had public sympathy for about a week, and that is about all.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
goingboeing
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:08 am

That's simply not true. A rising tide carries all ships. Personal wealth in this country has never been higher. Home ownership is at an all time high. Perhaps you need a history class as well.

At the same time, the "poverty level" is almost at an all time high. While median household income was up about 2% from 2002-2003, so was the number of Americans living at or below "poverty level". FYI - "poverty level" for a family of 3 is a household income of $14,800.
 
toltommy
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:19 am

Airbazar -

I don't recall being rude to you, so why are you rude to me? Those benefits you talk about in countries like Canada, Sweden, and Austria are only possible through the hard work of others. If there weren't producers and achievers in those countries, there wouldn't be any "benefits". Luckily, you live in a country where you are allowed to believe in socialism. I choose not to, as is my right.

And, no, my world doesn't consist of the 50 states. Only in America can a person with a paid for $500000 home, a paid for Mercedes-Benz, a home full of furniture and electronic, but only a part time job (by their choice) be considered poor. Go to Africa or Asia, show someone who lives in a mud hut how someone living in government housing in the USA lives (TV's, appliances, furniture, probably their own car as well), and even tho' they'd be considered poor, they'd jump at it!
 
goingboeing
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:32 am

Luckily, you live in a country where you are allowed to believe in socialism. I choose not to, as is my right.

followed by

Go to Africa or Asia, show someone who lives in a mud hut how someone living in government housing in the USA lives (TV's, appliances, furniture, probably their own car as well), and even tho' they'd be considered poor, they'd jump at it!

What is "government housing" if it isn't a form of socialism?
 
7e72004
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:37 am

Let them go ahead and create "chaos." When they drive the public away from United and theairline goes under they will be left without a job...very foolish but their fault. I have NO SYMPATHY for those people.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
JeffLAS
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:43 am


I wish they would just pull the plug on the whole airline and start over. These threads are as bad or worse than my " Spirit Airlines Bashing" threads of the last few days. United is one messed up company and poorly run for at least the last 10 years. And they should be made to pay ALL of the 7.0 +/- billion dollar pension deficit to their employees, even if it means selling assets. I'm saying it right now they are going the way of the Neanderthal.
" Jazz A-380, you have 2,100 feet from the intersection......Cleared for Take-off"
 
aa777jr
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:44 am

A Flight Attendant is a little more than a "drink server",

hahaha  Smile

I was gonna say something, but I think UA777Contrail said it already.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
2H4
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:52 am

A Flight Attendant is a little more than a "drink server"


That's like saying EMTs are nothing more than chauffeurs, whose job is simply to drive people to the hospital. There is a lot more to the job than you two realize. Perhaps someday you'll have the misfortune to learn.

For the record, I disagree with this "CHAOS" deal. I simply know that flight attendants are a hell of a lot more than "drink servers".


2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
MidnightMike
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Flight Attendants At American Support AFA Struggle

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:56 am

Flight Attendants at American Support AFA Struggle

WASHINGTON, Nov. 19 /PRNewswire/ -- The union representing more than 25,000 flight attendants at American Airlines yesterday offered its strong support for members of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA seeking to preserve their wages, work rules and retirement benefits at United Airlines and US Airways

http://www.interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/11190000aaa02966.prn&Sys=blac&Fid=AVIATION&Type=News&Filter=Aviation


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7e72004
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:57 am

The CHAOS will just drive passengers to the other airlines...the flight attendants would just be shooting themselves in the back.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:01 am

"A Flight Attendant is a little more than a "drink server"

Bad call pal . . . I don't support the idea of CHAOS, neither do I support people who think like you.

CHAOS will further alienate an already disenchanted flying public. Bad idea. The Union Leaders (Masters) will tell their members (robots) what to do and off they will go, blindly into the night . . . . .

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:02 am

Oh well...that means more business for airlines like Southwest, AirTran, and even some other majors.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
mdsh00
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:10 am

The Union Leaders (Masters) will tell their members (robots) what to do and off they will go, blindly into the night . . . . .

Of course! Why should the union leaders care? They'll get to sit on their asses and collect money while their followers eventually lose their jobs.  Yeah sure
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
bennett123
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:40 am


Is it true that SouthWest are unionised.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:44 am

I disagree with Unions... I DO Agree with treating employees right... If an employee did not trust me enough to treat them right to the best of my ability, they would not continue to be employed with my company... I've worked for NON-UNION Walmart for 6 days and have already come to this conclusion.
Puhdiddle
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:53 am

At one point in America's history, unions were necessary and fair to the employers. . .that started with the Hoover Dam. Now, some unions seem to have taken the place of being the criminal.

Note to FA's of UA: Do not shoot self in foot. Nobody will win, and you'll be unemployed.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
bennett123
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:56 am


Several people have referred to "Right to Work", what does this mean.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 595
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:14 am

I think CHAOS is a bad judgment call for UAL F/As right now, although what the company is propsing to impose upon them is rough. Duty days will be lengthened so that F/As will work LAX-JFK-LAX in one day as a turnaround. Sick pay will be 70% of actual regular pay.

As for F/As being "glorified drink servers," I'll remember that the next time a passenger needs oxygen or CPR. I've evacuated an MD-11 during a sabotage threat and assisted in so many medical emergencies I can't tell you. It's hard work, physically and emotionally, dealing with difficult people and crossing several time zones on long international flights. Try it first before you make sweeping generalizations about a job you've never held.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:23 am

This is an open note for UA F/A's and any other that my have tricks up their sleeve.
I am suppose to go to PHX in mid Feb with 8 other people from around the USA and Ontario. I just sent this note about the proposed UA F/A's action to the other 8 with this note....
".....therefore, I am NOT booking myself on UA and hopefully you and yours will follow my lead. Our meetings must go uninterrupted and coming and going to PHX should be done with a carrier that we can all DEPEND on to do their job as they should".
So UA, you just lost a piece of revenue with your little games.
bye and have a nice time picketing instead of flying.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Socrates17
Posts: 54
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:58 am

Hi Bennett

Nobody seems to have replied publicly yet, so I will.

Used to be, that Union contracts with their employers could enforce that all employees with Unionized level positions (i.e. usually not white collar) MUST join the appropriate Union or they could not continue (or start, depending on the contract) to work at that employer. In its time, this was very logical. Otherwise, an employer could hire a bunch of people who agreed not to join the Union and therefore weaken the effectiveness of any strike.

Certain states, generally and ironically "Red" states in the terms of US Presidential Campaign coverage, enacted "Right-to-Work" laws which forbade those types of clauses. The name, which depending on your view of Unions is either fair and honest or a euphemism for handicapping the Unions, comes from the belief that "You have a Right to Work without having to join a Union." Of course, that "Right to Work" is now totally at the whim of management which as you see from the passionately held views here is either a good thing or a bad thing. I used to think it was bad. Unfortunately, I messed myself up by learning too much economics and see it now as the lesser of two evils.
You Can't Take the Sky from Me
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Flight Attendants Threaten Chaos

Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:10 am

UAL 777 CONTRAIL says:

This is all the F/A's have, they are glorified drink servers.

Biggest job group at UAL, and the dumbest job group at UAL.



Honestly, is there anyone you don't hate? I've been browsing these forums since '99 or '01, and I have positively never witnessed such consistently venomous posts.



2H4



You are CREW? You have displayed your intelligence level. Check my profile, I have been with this forum since 02' SO how could I have been hateful and negative since 99', and 01'? Pull your head out guy. I have seen a decade of ignorance at UAL with their flight attendants, they have brought this upon themselves. The reason I have no sympathy for these drink servers is because EVERYBODY else is taking cuts as well. CS is taking the biggest I believe at 15%, SO no sympathy for them.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL