6thfreedom
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Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:42 am

Air India has filed to operate 3pw B772 BOm-SIN-SYD services.

Does anyone know the range of AI's B772?
According to Boeing, range is 5,200 nm.

Rather than competing with SQ, GF, QF, BA etc on SIN-SYD, wouldn't it make sense for AI top operate BOM-BLR-SYD, or BOM-MAA-SYD, which would be around the 4,800nm mark, thus allowing them to bypass SIN??

 
N1120A
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:46 am

The AI 772s are 777-222ER models, so they have a range over 7000 nm. I don't know why they would not do the flight non-stop, perhaps they want to get the 5th freedom PAX SIN-SYD-SIN, though that is quite a full market.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jasepl
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:48 am

Actually, going via SIN is a good option. BOM will finally have non-stop service to SIN on AI, which is desperately needed. None of their flights do BOM-SIN non-stop currently and many of them operate on belief-defying routes (BOM-DEL-SIN, BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN etc).

Since AI (and IC) already fly non-stop to SIN from DEL, MAA, BLR, HYD, they could use these flights to feed the SYD flight at SIN. Don't know for sure how that would work though - haven't seen schedules or anything.

 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:58 am

I understand the schedule is along these lines...

BOM 2215
SIN 0600+1
SIN 0715
SYD 1635

SYD 1800
SIN 0015
SIN 0130
BOM 0400
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:03 am

If the flights ex-BOM are filled with BOM_SIN traffic, what's the point of extending the service to SYD??
If this happens, AI will end up filling the aircraft with low-yield holiday travellers ex-SIN in what is already a sector with heaps of capacity.

I would have thought A310 non-stop BOM-SIN would be appropriate, and non-stop services India-Australia.

By operating via MAA or BLR, AI has a competitive advantage over QF's BOM-SYD services, which require backtracking if connecting to/from DEL, Calcutta, MAA, BLR etc...

 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:26 am

This is based on the assumption that the 772's ARE coming on schedule.

Pretty big assumption to make at this stage!
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:07 pm

QF is operating the BOM-SYD flights nonstop.

Could SIN be mini-hub so that pax can connect to BLR, MAA etc there, rather than having to back track in BOM?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:11 pm

These 777-222ERs have a MTOW of "ONLY" 640,000lbs.... so their range at payload is considerably shorter than some of the more powerful operators' birds (DL's, CO's, BA's, etc).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:44 pm

Trolley,

A SIN mini-hub would work only if AI worked in a regular schedule India-SIN vv, as opposed to the current milk runs that operate from every point in India, sometimes via KUL, and sometimes onto CGK.

Somehow I don't think this is what AI is planning to do.

 
mrniji
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:30 pm

6thfreedom, first thx for your info!

Rather than competing with SQ, GF, QF, BA etc on SIN-SYD, wouldn't it make sense for AI top operate BOM-BLR-SYD, or BOM-MAA-SYD, which would be around the 4,800nm mark, thus allowing them to bypass SIN??


It makes sense to go via SIN. They can competitively fetch 5th freedom pax from SIN-SYD. Moreover, as said bay Jason, BOM-SIN would have a nonstop. They will hence serve three markets, with competitive prices (and nice equip):

BOM-SIN
SIN-SYD
BOM-SYD and vice versa

5th freedom rights are amongst the greatest rights for an airline. Let them first have enough a/c before they offer. Meanwhile, a presence with 'convenient' stops is doing well

Cheerio
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
airish
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:04 am

If this does happen it will be excellent. 6thfreedom once again thanks.

I thought if the flights went via SIN they would use the A310s. So if for what ever reason the 777s did not come I would not put it past AI using the A310s instead.

If the schedule is along these lines then it may possible that the operation will be integrated with AI161,AI160 due to the flight timings.

Flight timings might allow for connection to AIs other flights from other Indian cites such as DEL and MAA at SIN.
Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:10 am

So whats the status on these elusive 777s?

Still languishing in the desert with armadillos nesting by the undercarriage?

Tucked away in a paint shop in Hamburg?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
karan69
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:19 am

This will provide good competition on the BOM-SIN route with the 777,

But as far as the second leg of the flight to SYD is concerned,no doubt it maybe succesful but if a person is living in Mumbai -would'nt he/she rather be better of saving 4-6 hrs by flying QF non-stop on BOM-SYD
 
6thfreedom
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`

Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:05 am

OK... here's the latest.

AI may well extend the service to triangulate with MEL, therefore BOM-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-BOM.

while this will add to expenses, I think it's a great move in capturing the MEL market. After all 40% of Indian expats live in Melbourne.

I think most people that understand the Australian market know the dislike of Melbourne pax needing a domestic to international transfer [with terminal change] at SYD. It adds around 4 hours to the overall journey, and is a pain in the ......

 
jasepl
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:31 am

6thfreedom, the BOM-SIN flights might be half full with pax deplaning at SIN, but they can be filled up with pax coming in on AI or IC from DEL, MAA, BLR and HYD. Or even JAI. AI could also get a few SIN pax, because they probably will have lower fares than the other carriers.

Of course, this is all wonderful in theory, but it means AI will finally have to regularise their schedules and I don't think they're quite ready to face the implications of such an endeavour.

Above all though, we're going to have to wait for the 777s to show up and for AI to announce the flight and then actually start it. Could be a decades-long process!
 
chinaeastern
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:01 pm

6thfreedom:
not only MEL pax don't like domestic transfers but also triangle routes.
Can't see the route to be competitive enough,
on one hand, there is QF non stop service
on the other hand, SQ offer more frequencies and also more distinations with one stop
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:02 pm

Chinaeastern,

There is a big difference between needing a domestic to international connection in SYD, as opposed to having a 1 hour transit at the SYD international terminal [or MEL terminal for that matter].

There are quite a number of carriers that operate successful triangular services thru SYD and MEL...

AIR CHINA - PEK-PVG-MEL-SYD-PVG-PEK & PEK-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-MEL-SYD-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-PEK
AIR PARADISE - DPS-MEL-SYD-DPS AND COUNTER ROTATING
AIR MAURITIUS - MRU-SYD-MEL-MRU
CHINA EASTERN - PVG-MEL-SYD-PVG
CHINA SOUTHERN - AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN-MEL-SYD-AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN
PAL - MNL-MEL-SYD-MNL
QANTAS - MEL-SYD-PVG vv
THAI - BKK-SYD-MEL-[HKT] - BKK
UNITED - LAX-SYD-MEL vv

While i dislike going thru SYD at the best of times, if i have to, i'll do it on a same plane service...
 
behramjee
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:23 pm

The operating cost will be very high for Air India to fly BOM-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-BOM compared to BOM-SIN-SYD-SIN-BOM which is more logical.

If you say that AI will want to target 5th freedom pax on SIN-SYD-SIN then why would a SYD originating pax want to fly AI to SIN from SYD via MEL when there SQ-QF-BA B 744 each dailies flying that route nonstop !!!

If u say that 40% of Indian Expats in Australia reside in MEL area then might as well let QF handle the BOM-SYD sector and codeshare with them and AI handle BOM-SIN-MEL route and make QF codeshare with them here.

Or if AI is bold enough, have a seperate BOM-SIN-SYD flight and a seperate BOM-SIN-MEL flight!!!  Big grin
 
karan69
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:03 pm

They are better off performing the BOM-SIN-MEL flight and then codesharing the other leg with QF on the SYD sector
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:15 pm

If you say that AI will want to target 5th freedom pax on SIN-SYD-SIN then why would a SYD originating pax want to fly AI to SIN from SYD via MEL when there SQ-QF-BA B 744 each dailies flying that route nonstop !!!

PRICE!!! Perfect competition, he?  Big grin


They are better off performing the BOM-SIN-MEL flight and then codesharing the other leg with QF on the SYD sector

QF would only do that if they received more rights.. why should they do that otherwise??

Moreover, is it sure that the possible flights will be on 777 rather the 310? And why not PER? PER was served in the 90s by AI


Edit: Where is Sean's old post bringing some facts straight??? Deleted?

[Edited 2004-11-23 10:16:36]
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
airish
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:14 am

AI has flown to MEL in the past Bombay / Perth / Sydney / Melbourne / Perth / Bombay according to

http://www.airindia.com/page.asp?pageid=51

MEL came off line on April 1 1981

If AI wants to fly to MEL as well then they should do something similar to the one above so maybe

BOM-MEL-SYD-BOM or BOM-SYD-MEL-BOM or BOM-MEL-SYD-MEL-BOM or BOM-SYD-MEL-SYD-BOM


Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
 
sshank
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:37 am

I'd like to suggest the following itinerary -
BOM-MAA-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-MAA-BOM

Now - that's a true AI style milk run!
 
jasepl
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:53 am

LOL Sshank! Anything else just wouldn't feel like AI! Except perhaps BOM-DEL-SIN-SYD-MEL-SIN-MAA-BOM on Tuesdays and BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN-MEL-SYD-SIN-HYD-DEL-BOM on every other Friday.
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:52 am

I swear that I once did a 747 run on Air India in perhaps the late 70s that went:

London-Paris-Frankfurt-Kuwait-Delhi-Bom-MAA-Sin-Per-Syd. We had half a day in Bom because the Australian flight left at 1 pm and spent it at the Sun-n-Sand hotel. Of course back then I was a kid and it was all rather exciting, especially since AI's service was fabulous.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:02 pm

Milk run jokes aside, I still think that AI would be best to combine MEL and SYD, and by-pass SIN.

Out of curiosity, which airport out of MAA or BLR is best suited for transit pax, has the most domestic connections and is most thriving city at the moment??

 
jasepl
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:16 pm

MAA certainly the best I've been to in the country. And it's got more connectivity than BLR, I think.
 
sshank
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:57 pm

MAA certainly the best I've been to in the country

True. In terms of airport infrastructure MAA is leaps ahead of BLR. In terms of domestic connectivity they are about the same, international there is no contest - MAA is ahead by a country mile.

BLR is in the news a lot due to its recent IT/Software prominence - while MAA has a more diversified economic base based on manufacturing, auto, Petro/chem, and entertainment in addition to the software upstarts.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:12 pm

interesting...

here's another Q.
apart from air, what's the transport infrastructure like between MAA and BLR??

ie, would a person from BLR travel overland to MAA to get a connecting long haul flight? eg to Australia??

also, how closely to AI and IC work in terms of domestic connections and feed?

 
mrniji
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:23 pm

BOM-MAA-KUL-SIN-MEL-SYD-SIN-HYD-DEL-BOM

You forgot tha PER leg, dude  Big thumbs up


Milk run jokes aside, I still think that AI would be best to combine MEL and SYD, and by-pass SIN.

As said, I do not see any economic sense here..

also, how closely to AI and IC work in terms of domestic connections and feed?

Like big s--t .. try to book a flight to a smaller destination in India.. if you do not have friends at the international gateway or a certain budget, you will have a nice overnight experience at a dump, which is called airport in India  Yeah sure
Moreover, booking classes impose a problem here - no real synergy, so the call for a merger is renewed..

6thfreedom, may I ask for your sources?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:25 pm

Mr Niji,
Unfortunately it's best that I don't reveal my sources, but let's just say that they are fairly accurate.

I can also give you proposed flight numbers and so on, but probably best I don't.

While AI has filed for the B772, I wouldn't be surprised if they commenced SYD services with the A310.
 
TKMCE
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:08 pm

apart from air, what's the transport infrastructure like between MAA and BLR??
*****

there are abt 5 pairs of trains, the fastetst of which takes abt 5 hours.

Any number of coaches, taking an average of 7 hours

 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:45 pm

Unfortunately it's best that I don't reveal my sources

Indeed, because I doubt your airline's planning department (or even worse, slot co-ordinator) would be pleased to see that you have been leaking the SC115 draft schedules just two days after they were opened up. Care to be reminded about the confidentiality policy you (or whoever gave you the access) agreed to?

Still, just a word of advice. After you've followed the SC filings for a few years, you'll also realize whose filings you can take seriously and whose are simply speculative slot blocks.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:05 am

Not quite B747-437B, but point taken...

FYI - neither of the 'sources' u quoted are my sources....

 
mrniji
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:53 pm

Re: Nonstop or via SIN

I just thought about this question again... a nonstop would be only great of AI synergizes dep with flights from Europe, ME and targets 6th gen freedom pax.. this could do a boom for potential pax for the flights.. i.e. a dep around 7 am from BOM, matched with arrival from FRA, LHR, CDG and ME Flights... the proposed

BOM 2215
SIN 0600+1
SIN 0715
SYD 1635


Does not match the criteria...

Then, I would not like to change in the dump (=BOM)... waiting at BOM, entering with white clothes and boarding with black ones, being eaten up by Mosquitos and treated worse than the latter animals by airport and immigration officials there could make a Europe-Australia flight via BOM with AI a nightmare
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Air India B772 Range? SYD Flights.

Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:24 am

I was under the impression that Europe-India flights are generally pretty full, and there isn't a need for 6th freedom traffic onto Australia.

I also think the Australia-India flights [min 4pw] could stand up without the need for the feeder traffic.

Only benefit of feeder traffic is to smooth out the seasonality.
Indian traffic from Australia peaks Nov to Feb, while Europe-Australia peaks June to August. It certainly opens up the opportunity for more than 4pw.

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