MidnightMike
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Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:40 am


http://www.katu.com/business/story.asp?ID=72752

It's also negotiating the sale of 30 planes to Blue Panorama of Italy.

It is also in negotiations to sell a total of 30 planes to Blue, First Choice Airways of the United Kingdom and Primaris Airlines, a Las Vegas carrier.




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NYC777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:42 am

These guys have got it wrong. 4 to Blue Panorama, 6 to First Choice and 20 to Primaris. Not 30 to Blue Panorama. Someone there certainly hasn't been doing their due diligence!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:48 am

Nyc777

The only reason why I posted this is when I saw the inflated numbers, not sure if that was an error or some negotiations going on?
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:02 am

It sounds like an error on the part of the TV station. Certainly didn't want to imply that you are stating these numbers!
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solnabo
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:08 am


We all know what happend to Italian LCC....Volare springs to mind!

I wonder if Blue Panorama will survive!

Just my 0,02

Micke//SE  Big grin
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DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:37 am

The speculation on these orders has now reached frenzied proportions. Firm the things up for God's sake, THEN talk about them.
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:14 am

>We all know what happend to Italian LCC....Volare springs to mind!

I wonder if Blue Panorama will survive!<

Blue Panorama is more of a charter carrier, which is a little bit different. Also, they are not expanding like mad like Volare did and not using a stupid name like Volareweb.com Airlines.

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CB777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:25 am

Strong rumor that Qatar Airways is going to place an order.
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:28 am

Strong rumor that Qatar Airways is going to place an order.

Source? Are you an insider with knowledge...if so please share details.

It has already been widely reported on this forum of Qatar's interest in the 7E7.
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Fyano773
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:58 am

Source? Are you an insider with knowledge...if so please share details.

See:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2002086753_qatar10.html

Fyano.
 
SNATH
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:19 pm

It's also negotiating the sale of 30 planes to Blue Panorama of Italy.

It is also in negotiations to sell a total of 30 planes to Blue, First Choice Airways of the United Kingdom and Primaris Airlines, a Las Vegas carrier.


The above is obviously a typo. The first sentence is the prefix of the second
sentence. So, they didn't get the numbers wrong or inflated them. They just
screwed up when typing them up. 4 to Blue, 6 for First Choice, and 20 for
Primaris, as Nyc777 correctly pointed out, equals 30. Mystery solved.

Regards,

Tony
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m404
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:34 pm

Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:09 pm

well possable orders from qatar (70) lot, finnair, aer lingus, and some chineese airline might push the numbers up
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cedarjet
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:40 pm

I don't see it. For one thing, we seem to be up to 30 orders, not 200! For another, half of these airlines don't seem to exist. "Primaris Airlines, a Las Vegas carrier"?! Er, you don't launch a new jet airliner program based on a few orders from some made-up airline based at Lost Wages. I don't think an order from a little UK holiday airline like First Choice is very prestigious either. Hey ho, the feeling's mutual, they've only ordered 6. To the last poster, Aer Lingus and Finnair are solid Airbus customers and they aren't going to budge - especially Finnair, who have never bought a Boeing aircraft...oh OK, a couple of 757s the airline don't seem to know what to do with.

Finally America's answer to the Mercure: the 7E7. What does the E stand for, the drug Boeing were collectively taking when this seemed like a good idea?
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zonky
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:43 pm

I was thinking about this when reading an order annoucement the other day. When an airline orders X planes, and 'options' for Y, what should be read at face value?
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:14 pm

Wow cedarjet, I didn't know it was possible for someone to have their head so far up their ass...yet you come in and prove it can be done.

For the record, how about you CHECK the actual number of 7E7 orders and provide the FULL list of customers...not the selective spin you're good at.

Also, open your eyes and read that 7E7 still hasn't even had its design freeze yet. 7E7 is a replacement for 767/757...if you had any brain in your head, you'd realize that the market for such aircraft outnumbers the market for 747/A380 size aircraft...whatever the Boeing boys are smokin', they should pass it around, we need more good ideas in the world.  Insane

I haven't seen an intelligent post on these boards in awhile...I'm starting to become worried for humanity. Wild predictions for 200+ orders by year end, and idiotic assessments that an aircraft targeted to replace a LARGE market of aging A300s, 767s, and 757s, is doomed to failure. Ay Caramba!

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SNATH
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:20 pm

Cedar,

Even though I do not totally disagree with you, apparently Primaris does
currently fly; granted with a small fleet.

And I'm sure people said the same thing when JetBlue ordered out of the...
well, blue  Big grin, a bucketload of A320s.

Tony
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MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:28 pm

Cedarjet

Your information is wrong, sorry, every airline that has ordered the 7E7, exist in one fashion or another. As far as orders for number of aircraft, I will just point out one, ANA, for an order for "50" 7E7's plus options.

Jetblue was an airline on paper only when they ordered the A320, & that was years ago, guess what, they are still flying.

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NYC777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:58 pm

Finally America's answer to the Mercure: the 7E7. What does the E stand for, the drug Boeing were collectively taking when this seemed like a good idea?

Well Airbus must be on the same "E" drug because they are sufficiently threatened by the 7E7 to seriously launch the A350.
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767-332ER
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:11 am


Cedarjet,
I bet you didn't say anything like this when B6 placed their initial Airbus order. Might you be biased??

P.S. ANA seems to be a pretty real carrier to me.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

Finally America's answer to the Mercure: the 7E7. What does the E stand for, the drug Boeing were collectively taking when this seemed like a good idea?

Well, probably not. More likely it stands for the drugs you were on when you failed to see the enormous potential of the 7E7.  Big grin
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:00 pm

Leahy : The A330 continues to be popular and has picked up 13 new operators in the last sixteen months. That's the period when (Boeing has) been flogging the 7E7.

That seems a Concordeboy 'ish like statement.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Did they have contact? is it true?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002099277_airbus24.html
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:09 am

Leahy : The A330 continues to be popular and has picked up 13 new operators in the last sixteen months. That's the period when (Boeing has) been flogging the 7E7.

"Did they have contact? is it true?"

If it's true, then Leahy appears to be the only one who knows about it. According to the latest statistics from Airbus, the A330 has garnered a grand total of 5 new customers since the beginning of 2003 (making it somewhat more than 16 months). Don't know where Leahy got 13, but I know his imagination is pretty good, so go figure.  Wink/being sarcastic

Regards,

Hamlet69
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:12 am

Forgot to mention: according to a small blurb in a recent issue of The Seattle Times, the paper reports that they have now seen evidence at Boeing that the manufactuer has refundable deposits from 16 carriers covering 246 7E7's. This includes the aircraft already announced by ANA, ANZ, First Choice, Blue Panorama and Primaris.

It is open to debate how many of these deposits will turn into firm orders, however, it does give a little background to Boeing's stated goal of having 200 firm orders by 2005.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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cedarjet
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:00 am

I'm still not seeing it. I apologise for ruffling feathers but I stand by everything I said except the naff remark about Boeing employees being on Ecstacy - I would think more Airbus workers are on it, it's a much more mainstream drug in Europe.

OK, so Air NZ and ANA are proper airlines, but they aren't going to launch a whole program - Air NZ only fly about half a dozen 767s (if that - didn't they buy A320s to replace the 767s?). I can see ANA going for the 7E7 admittedly, with the unswerving loyalty of the Japanese airlines to all things Boeing (does anyone know why this is?) that rivals even El Al.

If I seem pissed off with Boeing, it's not some anti-American obsession, it's real frustration with a once great company that built all the best planes - the 707, 727, and of course the 747. How could they lose the plot so spectacularly?! I don't want them to fail, I want them to stop deluding themselves that they're anything but a meagre shadow of their mighty former selves, with stupid press releases crowing about these meaningless options. Concorde generated refundable options from nearly ever airline you can name (see: http://www.concordesst.com/history/orders.html) and how many were built? Stop jerking around with stupid names (Dreamliner? What, are we five years old? Ugh) and stretching 1960s technology (737NG) and do what Airbus do: build state of the art airliners that will make money for customers.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of

Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:27 am

If I seem pissed off with Boeing, it's not some anti-American obsession, it's real frustration with a once great company that built all the best planes - the 707, 727, and of course the 747. How could they lose the plot so spectacularly?!

The 7E7 is more than just some 767 replacement, it really is a technological revolution for aircraft buidling. You, and maybe even Airbus, have yet to realize this. It will likely go down as one of Boeing's best programs.

Stop jerking around with stupid names (Dreamliner? What, are we five years old? Ugh) and stretching 1960s technology (737NG)

The 737NG has a new wing, new tail, new engines, new landing gear, new APU, new avionics, new systems.... the 737NG is state of the art. It is making money for customers. If the 737NG is not a new airplane, they you must concede to me that the A332 and A346 are just glossed over versions of the A300B2.

And if you have any illusions to the 737NGs success, remember that it reached the 1000 sales, 1500 sales, and 2000 sales point faster than any other aircraft, including the A320. It also reached the 1000 delivery and 1500 delivery point faster than the A320. It reached the 1 million opperating hour point faster than any other aircraft, including the A320. It also has higher dispact reliabilty, fewer accidents, and no write-offs

and do what Airbus do: build state of the art airliners that will make money for customers.

Right.... and Boeing aircraft are failing to do this? Look at the most prominate airlines in the world. The 777 is the flagship of more airlines than any other, in addition to outselling the A340 2:1
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of

Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:30 am


Finally America's answer to the Mercure: the 7E7. What does the E stand for, the drug Boeing were collectively taking when this seemed like a good idea?


Oh, come on. Its a new airplane program, and a fantastic one at that. What part of it seems like a bad idea to you?


Right.... and Boeing aircraft are failing to do this? Look at the most prominate airlines in the world. The 777 is the flagship of more airlines than any other, in addition to outselling the A340 2:1


Ugh, I get so sick of hearing the 2:1 argument. It holds no water.

The 777 is designed to compete with the entire A330/A340 family, not just the A340.

The numbers sold of the family compete favorably.

N
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:43 am

Wow Cedarjet, how on earth did you get such a high 'Respected User' rating?

So you know, Air NZ has flown around 10 767-300s and 2-3 767-200s for the past 6-7 years, along with 15 or so 737-300s (5 of which I think were dedicated to international flights) and 8 747-400s.

The international 733s and 762s are being replaced by 15 A320s, along with adding to the budget carrier, Freedomair's fleet of 733s. The 8-9 763s are gradually getting replaced by a combination of 7E7s and 772s, with the 773 the likley 744 replacement in the longer term. From what I understand, NZ will be using the 7E7 to replace both 763s and 772s in the longer term, leaving the following fleet:

A32Xs
7E7 - 8/9s
773s

The 7E7 fleet will then likley add up to somewhere around 15 units (a guestimate, but it makes sense if you account for growth). So, just to defend the "prestige" of my local carrier in the face of utter ignorance, NZ is a good long-term win for Boeing and the 7E7.

Again Cedarjet, your user rating astounds me.
 
AirbusDriver
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of

Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:19 am

I think Boeing is under estimating the advantage of fleet commonality.
Here at Usair the company is very happy with it, most part including engine are the same for A319/20/21 plus it's the same type rating. even some of parts on A333 are the same and the training difference are minimum. I would be surprise to see any A330 operator switch to the 7E7 when the A350 is available.
 
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:26 pm

Aerokiwi

From what I understand NZ will order more B7E7s to replace the four future leased B772ERs, when their lease expires
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AvObserver
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:59 pm

"I would be surprise to see any A330 operator switch to the 7E7 when the A350 is available."

That would depend on their priorities. While it's less likely airlines with significant numbers of A330s, especially ones with big fleets, would choose the 7E7 over the A350, they might if fuel savings was an overiding must in a new fleet acquisition. Though fuel isn't the only cost consideration, its significance continues to rise with oil prices remaining high. All indications seem to be that the A350 will still be a good bit heavier, despite efforts to apply more composites to its structure and unable to closely match the 7E7 in this aspect. A true Airbus competitor is still probably at least 10 years away; since they must also focus on the A30X shorter-range widebody to replace the A300/310 as well as look at upgrading the A320 family. This is why they must now base their 7E7 'competitor' on an existing airframe, certainly a sound, cost-effective move but not one that will truly meet the fuel-savings bar set by Boeing. While the A350 will be the logical choice of many A330 operators, Boeing will certainly snag the ones for which saving fuel matters most. That said, I'm skeptical BCA will have 200 7E7 FIRM orders within the next 5 weeks, despite all the provisional deals being made. It may take a few months yet to iron out all the details in these agreements to translate them into 'firm' status, unless they've got a superb incentive package if airlines act by Dec. 31st. Well, we'll just have to see what they say by that date.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:41 pm

Aerokiwi, I wouldn't be too upset about my high RR, it's only because I use correct spelling. My actual opinions are all nonsense.

PS you confirmed what I said about Air NZ though - A320s replacing 767s (and 737s). So they aren't going to replace (what in 2009 will be) five year old A320s for 7E7s that don't fit.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
brutie
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:46 am

Errrr Cedarjet, you might like to re-read Aerokiwi's post more carefully - the only 767s that the 320s replaced were some (3 IIRC) 762s which have now gone from the fleet. The first of the 763s (4 of them) won't be replaced until the 772s come online - the remaining 5 are due to stay until the 7E7s become available.
No 320s are going to be replaced by 7E7s.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:28 pm

Brutie... NZ will still be operating the 762 on SYD AKL routes next April.

This topic is getting stupid. Were now talking about orders NZ may be making when the lease on aircraft that arent yet delivered runs out.

The 7e7 looks like a great aircraft, with one great order to date from ANA. The problem is that they are attempting to launch it in the worst aircraft ordering depression in many decades. The only carriers ordering significant aircraft are low cost carriers and Middle Eastern airlines where money is not an issue. North American carriers simply cannot afford to order a 7e7, and are activly downsizing the 762 routes to 738's to get efficiencies on smaller yields. I fear that the days of significant widebody use on north american domestic routes is over. Look at the JFK LAX transcon market - becoming more and more narrow body aircraft.

I presume 99.9% if readers believe that the Primaris order is wishful thinking. There is no premium only market sector of that scale from the New York area. With the exception of three BBJ's to small european cities with the power of global brands (LH, etc) behind it this market simply doesnt exist. You cannot compare this to the low cost JetBlue market flying a tried and tested business model on tried and tested routes.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:15 pm

Good post from Best Western. May I respectfully continue the following train of thought: "The only carriers ordering significant aircraft are low cost carriers and Middle Eastern airlines where money is not an issue." I don't know if it's fair to say money isn't an issue. Qatar Airways have openly admitted they're a vanity operation, but Emirates make a lot of money - their whole raison d'etre is to be part of an economy in the UAE that isn't dependent on oil. If they were a vanity operation they'd order two A380s, like QR have. Instead they've ordered fifty. This shows the strength of the economy in Europe and Asia, the two markets EK serves.

I think Boeing's real problem isn't that it's a bad time for airlines (things could be better, admittedly), the real problem is that Airbus have now had 20 years for their cockpit commonality and overall family concept to bed in, and now, there's very little room for Boeing to maneouvre. Every European airline of any note (with the exception of Ryanair) have Airbus planes, generally more than one type (at least, like Finnair, a fleet that runs from the A319 to the A321) and frequently a combination of shorthaul narrowbodies (A32x) and longhaul widebodies (A330 / A340). As Air France's 777-300 order proves, this is not a result of political pressure, either. Much the same can be found all over the world, from LAN Chile and it's affiliates, to Qantas (wait til their ops guys get a load of the numbers produced by the JetStar A320s; add the A330 and A380 and bye bye Boeing down under).

The other problem faced by Boeing is political - many nations (all of them except Israel) have been alienated to some extent by the last four years, and the prospect of another four. There is also the prospect of a highly volatile US economy and US dollar. So while there may not be overt political pressure from Paris or Berlin the way some Americans would believe, the fact is there are plenty of airlines who would make great customers for a 7E7 / A350-sized plane, but Boeing reps can't even visit them, let alone sell them planes: MEA, Iranair, and here's one, right on the doorstep, that would probably snap up 15 planes: Cubana. I'm sure there are many other nations who have been treated shabbily in recent times by The World's Only Superpower [tm] which will lean away from a US product when it comes to multi-billion dollar purchases.

PS just read this before posting, and I partially withdraw the 'bye bye Boeing down under' comment, the one move that has saved Boeing's bacon is the 777, and Qantas may yet buy some 777-300s, Airbus' Achilles Heel is the A340, which I don't think they've ever quite got right, compared to the A32x family, the A330 and the A380, all of which are (or gonna be) obviously cashcows for both manufacturer and hundreds of customers.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Alessandro
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:40 pm

Cedarjet, Iranair aren´t getting any airbuses, too many US components in the
Airbuses.
Perhaps airbus should design an non-US component airbus so they can sell to
countries like Iran and Sudan?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:07 am

Boeing may (or may not) get the full 200 signed by Dec 31st, but tight now is a great time to put US$ down on a 7E7, simply because it is cheaper than it has been for a long time. (Airbus has already indicated that they might have problems if the Euro hits $1.35 and that's not far away.)

December 31st, however, is not the deadline in determining if the 7E7 is a successful aircraft. I don't think B would shed a tear if they couldn't announce a long list of orders until, say, the week after the 380 takes to the sky for the first time.

I do think that they will have some announcements before the end of the year, unless the changing value of the dollar is causing changes (increases) in the orders airlines were about to sign.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:04 pm

..."If I seem pissed off with Boeing, it's not some anti-American obsession, it's real frustration with a once great company that built all the best planes - the 707, 727, and of course the 747. How could they lose the plot so spectacularly"...

Boeing probably did lose the plot to some extent during the late 80's and 90's. While the A300/310 might not have seemed much of a threat to Boeing the arrival of the A320 in 1988 packed with new technology never previously seen in a passenger airliner should have set the alarm bells ringing at Seattle.
The combination of new technologies in the A320 with 500 orders before certification should have indicated to Boeing that Airbus was going to be a formidable competitor. Even after the A330 and A340 launch Boeing was still dragging its feet about launching the 767X (B777) and only did so after BA publicly stated they would buy A330's if no Boeing competitor was available. For BA to make such a public statement at that time was akin to the Pope declaring he would become a Protestant !
Later in the 90's Boeing abandoned the 747 and above category - another big mistake in the eyes of many.

The launch of such an ambitious program as the 7e7 is a good indication that Boeing have regained the plot. While the use of so much new technology at once involves a higher degree of risk it should produce a quantum leap for Boeing provided they can bring it all together - no simple task.

December 31st, however, is not the deadline in determining if the 7E7 is a successful aircraft
Agree completely.

The success of the A350 program is also not predicated on emulating all the technologies of the 7e7 - it can sell quite well as a low cost, low risk derivative offering savings in commonality.

Cheers,
StickShaker
 
greaser
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RE: Boeing: On Track For 200 7E7 Orders By End Of Year

Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:32 pm

Cedarjet, Iranair aren´t getting any airbuses, too many US components in the
Airbuses.
Perhaps airbus should design an non-US component airbus so they can sell to
countries like Iran and Sudan?


And further divide the USA and Europe? At this rate even France does not want to sell to Genocide Sudan.

I would just like to point out during Boeing's "sleep" in the 90's, they magically created the 737-NG, the fastest and best selling aircraft ever, delivering the 1500th frame in six years, sooner than any other commercial airplane model.
Or maybe the 757-300 just magically appeared, or the 767-400, or the 777-200ER, or the 777-300, or the 777-300ER/200LR intial development. OR the 747-400ER.
Gee, Boeing has really been sleeping well.
After the 757/767, the only aircraft need replacing is the 747. And oh, should i mention Boeing has said they would do so by 2010.


Now you're really flying