keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:29 pm

What is the likelihood of foreign airlines in particular Singapore Airlines, Malaysia Airlines & Thai Airways given the authority to operate flights between Mainland China and the US? American carriers are already given a hard time by the Chinese govt to operate more flights, it's only recently that the market has been opened up which paves the way for more transpac services over the next 2 years. With that said, what chances do 3rd party airlines have in this protected market?

Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea have traditionally been the jump-off point for Transpacific flights operated by SQ, MH and TG. All of these carriers would be dying to operate Transpacific flights via China as this is one of the biggest largely uptapped markets in the world, almost at their own doorstep.

How do you foresee SQ, MH & TG one day operating Transpacific flights via China? How many years would you give before this could happen? That also includes flights to Canada.

regards,
Keno

[Edited 2004-11-24 12:43:15]
 
LUV4JFK
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:46 am

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:43 am

What is the likelihood of foreign airlines in particular Singapore Airlines, Malaysia Airlines & Thai Airways given the authority to operate flights between Mainland China and the US?

Not likely seeing that American, Delta, & Continental are currently battling for that right themselves and they are already US based airlines. If the US or China gives authority to non China or non US airlines to fly USA-China, there would be quite an uproar by all airlines for each side.

LUV4JFK
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Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:42 am

SQ Cargo already operates transpacific to the US ex-Xiamen and Nanjing. Singapore and the US have an open skies agreement, so the only hindrance to passenger flights is China itself. You can be sure that open skies will be discussed at future bilateral talks with China, but when that may be I don't know.
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am

LUV4JFK

Sorry your point is irrelevent!

It depends on the bilateral treaties between the US and the airlines country. The bilaterals between the US and Singapore/Malaysia/Thiland must allow for enroute stops as until recently it has not been possible to operate non stop. If that treaty allows cities in China AND allows fifth freedom rights between the stopovers and the US, then SQ/MH/TG already have these rights and those countries have given the US some acceptable quid pro quo in return. If the treaties do not allow it then of course they cant do it.

As the US and Singapore have an open skys agreement, then SQ can, as far as the US is concerned, which of course begs the question of does the China/Singapore bilateral allow SQ fifth freedom rights beyond China?

As EX_SQer says SQ definately has these rights for cargo, pax, I dont know.


Gemuser
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keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:40 am

I managed to find the treaty documents on US open skies policies. In the Far East, the US has open skies policies with Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, South Korea & Taiwan.

http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/tra/opskies_us_malaysia.html
http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/tra/opskies_us_singapore.html


If that treaty allows cities in China AND allows fifth freedom rights between the stopovers and the US

However they do not answer the crucial points above. Please have a read and maybe you can make more sense on it that I do.

Few months ago there I remember reading that Air India was considering flying to LAX via Shanghai. It sounded a bit far fetched to me, so what was that all about?
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:07 pm

KEno, its in Annex1

Quote from Annex 1 section1 of US/Singapore Open Skies Treaty at
http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/tra/opskies_us_singapore.html

"B. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Republic of Singapore:

1. From points behind Singapore via Singapore and intermediate points to a point or points in the United States and beyond.

2. For all-cargo service or services, between the United States and any point or points."

Seems clear that SQ can serve the China-US market however it wishes, SUBJECT to the China/Sinfapore treaty, of course.


Gemuser
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Airbus Lover
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Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2000 10:29 pm

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:13 pm

Yes correct Malaysia and the USA have open skies agreement meaning that MH can operate as many flights a day into any American city they wish and vice versa. The problem would lie with China granting Malaysian national carrier the right to fly to North America out of a Chinese city and with the associated freedom rights. Currently they have granted Malaysia similar rights in the latest bilateral agreements so we see MASkargo flying from Shanghai to Dubai.
 
chinaeastern
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:09 am

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:49 pm

well, there are 5thfreedom airline flying via shanghai. As far as i know, QR is flying DOH-PVG-ICN.
 
chinaeastern
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:09 am

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:14 pm

i'm wondering which airlines have 5thfreedom over china too. can someone here confirm? does QF, VS, EK have 5th freedom over china?
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2566
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: SQ/MH/TG China-USA Traffic Rights

Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:38 pm

QF & VS have rights through Hong Kong but that's different from mainland China.
With access to US-China strictly controlled, I would doubt the Chinese authorities would grant rights to other countries, as this would take away traffic from Chinese carriers.

The only foreign pax carrier currently taking advantage of 5th freedom rights is NW with flights from PVG/PEK to NRT. UA has withdrawn all China-Japan flights, this April instead concentrating on direct flights from the US.

Chinaeastern,
Is QR actually allowed to sell flights on the PVG-ICN leg because it doesn't come up on QR's web site as being able to book just that leg.