Transtar
Topic Author
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BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:36 am

Why does BA operate a mixture of RR and GE90 engines on its 777s?

Are the older aircraft RR and the newer aircraft GE?

Or did they opt for a mixture for performance reasons?

Thanks

TranStar
 
gkirk
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:37 am

Older one's are the GE90 I think, all their new 777s are RR engines
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KateAA
Posts: 87
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:38 am

Thats right, when they first flew the B772's they had GE, then they moved onto RR.

Not sure why!?

Kate

[Edited 2004-11-24 16:39:17]

[Edited 2004-11-24 16:39:48]
 
SNATH
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:41 am

I'm pretty sure the first batch of B777s they got was with GE90s. But,
apparently they had some problem with them (hopefully someone in this
forum will be able to give us more details on this) and they were not
totally happy with them. So, the second batch of B777s they ordered was
with RRs.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
eg777er
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:51 am

It's an interesting one this.

Firstly, for the original order (the 5 A market frames and remainder IGW), BA went with GE. Why? Many suggest it was because GE made BA an offer they couldn't refuse...to take over the Cardiff Maintenance facility for engine overhaul.

For the second order (the Y-MM* regns), it's either because

1) BA weren't particularly happy with the GE engines in the early days....reliability problems, fan blades, extra inspections etc.
2) BA dumped a 747 order in favour of more 777s, the engines for the 747s had been ordered from RR, and there would have been massive change penalties had the RB211 order not been changed to Trents for the 777s.

I suspect it's a mixture of all these.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:56 am

...this topic's only been covered ten thousand and one times, but anywho:




BA was the launch customer for the GE90, and it had teething problems.

That and even though it was built with a heavily-fortified core (which was its biggest weakness in the A-market, but later became its biggest advantage for the newest 777s); GE was initially reluctant to take it beyond 90,000lbs thrust of output in the B-market.

Combine this with an outstanding debt to RR due to a defunct RB211 order, and an overall cost assessment showing that RR would be the expedient path....

...BA decided to order the Trent895 for its remaining 777s.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Somewhat ironically, if/when BA goes for the 777NGs, they'll once again be ordering GE90 powered aircraft.... which contrary to the ridiculous albeit strongly-held belief of some members here, would be of negligible difficulty/cost to the airline.
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GDB
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:55 am

When considering this, it should be noted that the PW engine as well as GE and RR were also evaluated in 1998, RR won, so the notion that a more powerful engine was needed was correct, it is also true that GE90 did have teething problems.
Honestly, I don't know where this idea that BA had to buy RR because of cancelled 747 orders has come from.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:15 am

I don't know where this idea that BA had to buy RR because of cancelled 747 orders has come from.

Quite a few (many credible) sources actually.

...that, and it is accurate that you guys had plenty of outstanding RB211s at the time. Only makes sense really.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
GDB
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:38 am

For the past 3 1/2 years that I've seen this notion that BA HAD to buy R/R in 1998 on here (and nowhere else), I have made a point of asking everyone I know who may shed light on this within BA, no-one has ever recognized this to be true.
I also remember our R/R rep (for Olympus engines) being surprised that R/R was chosen in 1998, pleased of course with comments like 'should have brought R/R in the first place', which is the view of everyone too.
For no other reason that selling the engine overhaul to GE has been a disaster, just this year we've had problems with them having contamination issues causing a bunch of RB211's to be parked causing some of BA's problems this summer.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:31 am

I'm with you, GDB, a good friend of mine was a BA employee at the time of the GE/RR switch, and he's never heard of this "must buy Trents in place of RB211's" story. According to him it was all down to reliability issues with the GE90. Funny how all the BA employees tell that scenario, where as ConcordeBoy, who has nothing to do with BA i might add, comes out with the other.

which contrary to the ridiculous albeit strongly-held belief of some members here, would be of negligible difficulty/cost to the airline.

Of course it would be negligable. They already have a sizable GE90 powered 777 fleet. It wouldn't make any difference to them.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
RRFan
Posts: 73
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:53 am

BA chose the GE90 originally because of the maintenance base issue. It may surprise alot of you particuarly Concordeboy, but it really was as simple as that. The savings on that facility were huge and BA could not resist that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with RB211's!
The RR engine was chosen on merit and merit alone. We are not discussing the 200LR or the 300ER 777's with GE that BA might choose someday this is about the original GE90's. The original GE90 aircraft had appauling, yes thats right appauling reliability compared to the P&W and RR offerings. There were numerous occasions where blades broke off (one which I witnessed) being brought into the hangar for the 5th time G-ZZZB! The RR engines on the other hand offered superb reliability and still do compared to their older GE90 counterparts!
I have to say i am amazed at how many people are still blind to the obvious failings of the GE90, that was all it was nothing else! When we at BA were flying B777's across to Paris that tells you there was a HUGE problem with the engine. BA can honestly brag that they had 12 minute ETOPS crossing the english channel because the GE90 could not get certified for trans-atlantic crossings. More proof of this was the fact the BA 777's were deployed to southern europe and the middle east (again with a lot of dwon time)

Concordeboy, i have nothing against you or this forum, but please get your information correct before attacking others.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:18 am

For the past 3 1/2 years that I've seen this notion that BA HAD to buy R/R in 1998 on here (and nowhere else)

But I haven't  Big thumbs up
Check your email.



It may surprise alot of you particuarly Concordeboy, but it really was as simple as that

...not sure from whence you derive this drivel, but if you'd conduct a simple (yeah, it really is as simple as that  Insane) search-run on the myriad times this topic has arisen-- you'd see that I've stated your aforementioned quote more often than any other.




Of course it would be negligable. They already have a sizable GE90 powered 777 fleet. It wouldn't make any difference to them.

...'bout time you learned that; considering that you argued the complete opposite through two whole threads  Laugh out loud



It has nothing whatsoever to do with RB211's!

...I'm curious, whom here claimed that it did?




There were numerous occasions where blades broke off (one which I witnessed) being brought into the hangar for the 5th time G-ZZZB!

I've gotten to see several maintenance reports from BA where within a GE90's blades separated from their holding wells, I'll give you that...

...but I defy that you could provide any corroboration WHATSOEVER that a GE90s fan blade "broke off".




I have to say i am amazed at how many people are still blind to the obvious failings of the GE90

...thus proving to anyone reading this, that your posting is little more than a beveled rant  Smile/happy/getting dizzy




When we at BA were flying B777's across to Paris that tells you there was a HUGE problem with the engine

What sort of tripe is that statement?

...nearly ALL airlines operate a new type (particularly if they're among the earliest customers) regionally before operating them on their intended mission profile.



BA can honestly brag that they had 12 minute ETOPS crossing the english channel because the GE90 could not get certified for trans-atlantic crossings.

The engine/airframe received ETOPS certification (at BA) sufficient for transatlantic crossings not long after its delivery, and then received ETOPS180 certification by both the FAA/JAA in October 1996-- the same month as did its competitor  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:05 am

...'bout time you learned that; considering that you argued the complete opposite through two whole threads

Bout time you learned to read, since in past threads referring to this subject i was using examples of airlines not currently operating the GE90.

...I'm curious, whom here claimed that it did?

Errrr.... you did!

I personally wouldn't argue with RRFan and GDB. They clearly know what they're talking about, where as you.... well... don't!

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:22 am

since in past threads referring to this subject i was using examples of airlines not currently operating the GE90.

riiiiiight, of course you were  Insane



Errrr.... you did!

Might wanna recap that one more time champ--
I've never once claimed that RB211s have anything to do with BA acquiring GE90s.




I personally wouldn't argue with RRFan and GDB.

I make it a habit to rarely argue with GDB, as I've learned more from him [along with Sean] than anyone else on these forums.

As for this RRFan character... half of what he posted was inaccurate, unfactual, and/or just plain crap; as addressed above.

Deal.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
RRFan
Posts: 73
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:27 am

Concordeboy,

'I've gotten to see several maintenance reports from BA'

Utter rubbish! There is no way you could have seen them, if you did then I would say there is a serious security breach at either Heathrow or Cardiff! That is not something an anybody like you can get their hands on, it is sensitive due to manufacturers and company policies to prevent media hysteria etc.

'nearly ALL airlines operate a new type (particularly if they're among the earliest customers) regionally before operating them on their intended mission profile.'

Again you have no idea, they trial aircraft like that on Shannon and other routes not commercially PARIS!. It was not certified for months to cross the atlantic and as already mentioned they were put on the middle eastern routes to until certification was achieved 11 months later when LHR-BOS was flown. You are really clutching at straws, I was there, you weren't, I worked there, you didn't. Go on and call because I am getting fed up with you thinking you know everything when you obviously don't.

This is not an AirbusvBoeing battle or an RRvGE battle this is about you filling this thread with your own stories which are not true. Call BA, Call GE lets see what they have to say because I can assure you my colleagues are awaiting your call.

 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:39 am

Utter rubbish! There is no way you could have seen them, if you did then I would say there is a serious security breach at either Heathrow or Cardiff!

If you really believe that, give me your email... see for yourself.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:39 am

I've never once claimed that RB211s have anything to do with BA acquiring GE90s.

Very clever, ConcordeBoy, twisting peoples words in your own favour. Shows the kind of low life you are. If i were you i'd leave this thread until you've done as RRFan suggested and actually call BA, and speak to someone who actually has seen the maintenance reports, rather than dreamed them.

Good day sir,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
RRFan
Posts: 73
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:43 am

Concordeboy,

Sorry to say this, but this person you keep referring to who talks tripe is me! I am the B777 first officer who was there, give me your e-mail and maybe I can enlighten you in a civil manner.

Regards
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:50 am

ConcordeBoy@gmail.com
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:52 am

Very clever, ConcordeBoy, twisting peoples words in your own favour.

Funny how that concept of tangible fact works, aint it?  Nuts

Course, all you would have had to do was read before ranting, and you wouldn't have stumbled into that pitfall
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:00 am

You know exactly what i meant ConcordeBoy. Please stop trying to act all proud, especially after your little downfall just there.  Wow!

Once again, good day sir,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
RRFan
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:03 am

RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:01 am

Concordeboy,

I noticed that you live in New Orleans, if at all I am in the area and it isn't very often due to BA not flying there, I would like to further discuss this subject to better our mutual interests in this area.

Regards
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:07 am

your little downfall just there

"little downfall just there"... hmm, care to expand on that one champ?





due to BA not flying there

...ooooh, ouch. Just had to hit below the belt, didn't you  Laugh out loud




I would like to further discuss this subject to better our mutual interests in this area

I'd be game for it in a second!

...as I've already mentioned, have some stuff here you might find particularly amusing (citing Tom in NO and MSYtristar as witnesses thereto).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
RRFan
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:03 am

RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:09 am

'as I've already mentioned, have some stuff here you might find particularly amusing'


Your posts are sufficient

Thanks
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:12 am

"little downfall just there"... hmm, care to expand on that one champ?

Once again, you know exactly what i'm talking about.  Wink/being sarcastic

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
cheeryguy
Posts: 25
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:37 pm

guys, they were using the 777 to Paris to allow the most sectors per day.....for crew training purposes. i know i was crewing them.
 
sn330
Posts: 606
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:11 pm

Concordeboy,

Are you on Anet as an aviation enthusiast, or just to argue with aviation enthusiasts.

Anyway, I really think you are a kind person!

Have a great day
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:16 pm

If I understand correctly each 777 engine variant were intended for different missions.


777-200A GE 90-76's @ 76,000lbs (For Middle Eastern and Gulf)
777-200IGW GE 90-85's @ 84,000lbs (North America, Caribbean and Gulf)
777-200ER RR 895's @ 95,000lbs (North America and Asia)

KrisYYZ
 
GDB
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RE: BA's Engine Choice For 777s

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:26 am

I think it's fair to say that in the early days, the attitude was 'well, it's a new airframe and engine type, shit happens', but then it went on and on.
Mods carried out in 1997 to increase performance, dubbed the 'Denver Bump'
So, in 1998, when a new batch of 777's was to be ordered, a full evaluation of all 3 777 engine options was undertaken, R/R won.
Helped by at that time GE90 not being committed to higher powered variants.

I would hesitate to say I know a lot about this, in 1995/6 I was involved with assessing system and component reliability across the BA fleet, from ATPs to widebodies and Concorde.
So saw a lot of the early problems with GE90.

From April 1997, I was in the Concorde Engineering Department (AKA 'The Flying Club'), so my knowledge of GE90 issues dropped off my radar, with the exception of our of R/R rep saying 'told you so' and our French Snecma rep (so involved with GE) saying nothing!

Having said that, the 777 itself did mature into an outstanding aircraft.

My boss then, who was running Concorde Engineering from 1996-1999, was a member of the BA-Boeing Working Together Group, as BA were with other airlines part of this unprecedented co-operation, he got an award from Flight International for this work.
But he's out of BA now, in 2001 he lost out in the vacancy to lead Engineering, so his rival did his legs so to speak, speaks volumes that he didn't win, before this, in late 2000/early 2001, he was a major player player in getting the Concorde tank mod off the ground, some reward he got from BA eh?

But, the selling off of the engine overhaul in Wales, was a troublesome move, in fact, those in BA who brokered it, were all out of the company within a few years of it being signed in 1991.
We certainly saw a decline in the quality of work from them when Olympus 593 came back from Wales after overhaul.

So, BA picked the right aircraft, maybe you can say that intially they picked the wrong engine at first too, certainly the way it was done was wrong, at the time, many thought that it was the death knell for R/R in big fans, certainly ANA indicated they did not pick R/R on 777's due to BA not buying R/R, but for all that, R/R certainly made a comeback, and then some.

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