Beijing21
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Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:02 am

I've read on the very Geneva spotters website www.dpts.org that Air Canada will be opening sometime in 2005 a Montreal-Geneva route with A333. Can anyone confirm that and add up some content to that very short release please ?

Cheers,

Beijing21
 
scf158
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:06 am

I have no idea but im praying that they will!
 
scf158
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:15 am

I also read the same thing....

"According to various sources in Switzerland and in Quebec, Air Canada is planning to launch a new flight between Montreal Trudeau and Geneva sometime during 2005. Initially Air Canada would operate Airbus A330-300 equipment on this new route, possibly switching by 2006 to Airbus A319LR converted from the current fleet."
 
dens
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:26 am

I read the same. it would be great!
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:42 am

GVA is on the list as post-CCAA new routes. I would be amazed if an A333 was deployed, can see them barely filling up a 763. From A333 to eventual A319 in 2006..sounds strange.

The IATA/ICAO staff should be happy about this one !!
Above and Beyond
 
yul332LX
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:16 am

A possible YUL-GVA has been mentionned several times in the last two months.

However, a 333 on this route doesn't make sense. Better go with the 763...
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:45 am

So on both sides of the Atlantic the route has its sources. It means we will certainly here from AC soon...I guess the new summer timetable could be the most suitable time to open up the leg.
But according to a GVA airport recent survey, YUL is one of the most demanded destinations among JFK, Tokyo and London. So why a A333 would not be the appropriate equipement ? I guess connections from Montreal are comparable to Boston.

By the way, Boston and Washington were proposed by former CEO André Dosé and recently the new head of marketing and sales in Geneva as very profitable routes if the equipment, a BBJ or ACJ is available at some extent. Any news on that ?


 
yul332LX
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:06 am

Of course YUL is one of the most demanded destinations out of GVA but AC has only 8 333s and this aircraft is better suited for routes like YUL-CDG/FRA or YYZ-LHR/FRA.

A 763 would be a perfect fit for this route.

E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
EZYcrew
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:20 am

I read not long ago on the GVA airport website, that the 1st offline destination from GVA was YUL, so I'm quite sure it can be a great success! Our ZRH-YUL flight always has an average 40-60 pax ex-GVA.
AF, KL and BA also get quite a nice YUL traffic ex GVA via their respective hubs.
 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:35 am

Does anybody know if other Companies are actively considering GVA for 2005. I know QR is rumoured and will ETIHAD be able to cope with EMIRATES with only 3 weekly connections via MUC. GVA is beginning to deploy efforts to establish itself as a stopover from North America to Asia KU is an example. Sad that thhey only have 2 weekly service and so attract only low yield passengers and even in small numbers.

My assumption is that AC is trying to get GVA with A333 because they eye a destination beyond GVA. Why not India, Lebanon ( it has been already discussed in this forum ) and IRAN!!!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:53 am

Given that AC has 8 A333's...

Dont you think that any other additional additions to the fleet would better serve more important destinations?

When was the last time any of us saw an Air Canada 330 not fly to LHR/FRA or CDG? We saw YYZ-FCO in summer 2003, due to the fact that YULFCO was cancelled and pax accomodated on the upgraded capacity.

It sure would be a nice route, all things considered!  Smile

 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:02 am

FLYYUL, I fully agree with you on the fact that AC like CO wants now to develop "niche" markets. So the smallest aircraft the fleet records will be the basis for new network expansion. I just found interesting that without promoting with extensive intensity Canada, a natural market provides at least 120-150 passengers a day. So potentially, yes 762-3 ER will be the suitable equipment. But the cabin amenities are certainly better featured on A333 and to that point high yield passenger (Geneva's justification for many routes that would otherwise look odd) are sensitive to that.

Well again, does anybody see further developement on the long-haul segment in GVA for 2005 despite the additions made above ?
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:06 am

I enjoy your optimism Beijing, but in my opinion, it is most unlikely that a plane this big could work in that market.

Feel free to disagree, it would damn nice to see some 757's on that route/

 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:21 am

You're right, A333 is unlikely to be profitable all year round. I look forward to seeing the product AC will be offering on YUL-GVA-YUL and especially how they will be marketing. I hope though the cabin on 762-3 ER will refurbish somehow.

As an end note, my remark will just remind the boeing readers that the most efficient/profitable transatlantic aircraft actually will not for sure be the 7E7 but in fact, you mentioned it FLYYUL, it is the 757 in 2 class...with winglets!!!
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:23 am

BEIJING 21 -

Nobody would argue that the A333 would be the PREFERRED aircraft serving any potential new European route, but given the availability of aircraft and anticipated loads, as mentioned by others, I see the B763 in a J/Y configuration.

As far as 'beyond" destinations, such as India, AC's competitive advantage is the only non-stop service from North America, unless you were ulitmately considering secondary Indian markets besides DEL/BOM. This same commerical strategy would apply to BEY or THR, if those routes ever came to fruititon.

In terms of comparing cabin amentities between aircraft types, AC's entire fleet will be retrofitted with new seating including individual IFE's on every aircraft from the CRJ700 up. Therefore comfortwise, seating should be similar on the entire international fleet.

But we all agree on one thing. It would be great touching down in GVA again!!
Above and Beyond
 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:35 am

Indeed my fear was, they open up the route with an equipment that fits to the potential of the market but not in term of the customer demand in term of comforf. And so the A333 would be the only option. Now you said the are going to newly equiped their cabin with state of the art devices in order to increase quality of service proposed, so I'm confident a 762-3ER would do great on that leg...

 
LX23
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:50 am

But according to a GVA airport recent survey, YUL is one of the most demanded destinations among JFK, Tokyo and London
Just a remark on Beijing's post... have you noticed that out of those four destinations, only ONE has direct service? I've always wanted LX to succeed, but sometimes, they deserve to fall on their ass for some of management's stupidity (losing LHR amongst other cases, as wel as refusal to start ANY OTHER intercon routes ex GVAAngry KU is apparently not doing too badly on the ORD route... now if only LX would launch a service to one of these places...
 
ac7e7
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:23 am

I agree, I don't know if we will see a A330, maybe just at the beginning. I see a B763 from YUL-GVA.
 
Noise
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:58 pm

How would a non-stop YUL-GVA route affect LX's YUL-ZRH route?
 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:34 pm

LX 23, you said KU is making some money by redirecting their ORD-AMS-KWI service via GVA. Do you think they are going to increase frequencies.

By the way, swiss CEO declared its company needs to explode every taboo. Will the reaffectation of GVA in a long-haul network strategy be more significant soon...?

But I agree that YUL could even outperform JFK in term of high revenue route and will place the YUL-ZRH in grave danger, very grave danger as YUL is the natural market out of western Switzerland.
 
LX23
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:04 am

Beijing:
Due to the current KU fleet size and the amount of flights they currently have, it is doubtful that they will be able to add freqs. KU currently has only 4 A343s, and these serve:

KWI-BKK-MNL 6x weekly
KWI-GVA-ORD 2x weekly
KWI-FRA 3x weekly
KWI-JKT 2x weekly
(I think this covers it, though I'm almost sure I'm missing something)

GVA returning to more than 1 daily long-haul might be too late if they don't do it quickly enough, as companies eventually start taking up some of the market (for example AC, Etihad, Emirates, KU).
Not to be a ZRH-basher, but I do think that one of the taboos the LX chairman was talking about was dropping some intercons ex-ZRH in exchange for more ex-GVA (or even BSL, though I'd stick with GVA for the assessment).
YUL on its own will probably be quite profitable, though I am not going to go as far as saying that it will be more profitable than JFK. After all, there seems to be enough room in the NYC for more than just a daily flight (LX daily, CO 6x weekly during the winter)
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:37 am

ZRH is good connect point, so im sure that GVA represents a minority amount of traffic carried on YULZRH.

 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:24 am

Lx23,
Thank you for your comments and remarks. Indeed I would bet that CEO Franz enclines to rely on datas and other figures and not to concentrate every efforts to justify minimum use of a state of the art terminal in ZRH. In addition to that I continue to say that ( and I would bet that we will see soon a second swiss long-haul aircraft operation down there in GVA ) The questions are what, when and how.

What : Will they convince AA to make a daily link with ORD or DFW...and so will probably kill KU for good or a BBJ/ACJ outsourced to private air.

When : As the quaterly reports are featuring good results for swiss. They are back on track and aiming to lease some additional aircrafts, I would bet summer 05 as the departing time.

How : There we are. With the crisis going on between them and the travel agent community I'm not so sure they will find sufficient back up there to get those flights at high exposure... But I can be wrong.

In fact I'm deeply convinced that swiss is working in silent to come up with a project. Whatever it is I see a codeshare with AA.

Just in addition to your KU A343 planning list, they do operate a 5 weekly JFK service as well. I guess 2 are via Heathrow and 3 nonstop.

Well I seem to have been to much extatic mentionning the profitability of a YUL flight. Indeed GVA is not a newcomer into double daily service with NYC. SR, TW, PA, DL and CO have experienced the route but I'm sure that the reactivity to market is essential here. I mean whatever the yield, the number of passenger and cargo lift, all of this depends of your financial structure and product.

Gosh I can't wait to see AC coming to GVA!!!!!
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:03 pm

There is most certainly a market for GVA-YUL because of the francophone traffic, so an AC flight would work, for sure during the busy summer months. The question remains whether the flight can remain in the black during the winter months. I don't think a seasonal flight, which is what AC is doing in so many European markets, is desirable for this market.

On a related note, is AC exploring the possibility of a similar BRU-YUL flight? I know that SN has been thinking about it. Last time AC tried was around 1995, with 3 miserable weekly flights and only for one season. The route was, for obvious reasons, a complete failure. But Sabena made it work, when they started operations a couple of years later with MD11 and later A332/333/342/343.

 
Beijing21
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:07 am

Well, I see passion stirred up down here.

Let's get this back on track.
I think either LX or AC will gain if they decide to open up the leg. swiss has not the adequate equipment A332. So AC left and we agree that the AC product, with cabin refurbishment, will make the 763ER the appropriate stuff to operate.

The question remains : When the official announcement will be made ?
I suspect in January for summer 05.
Comments ?
 
LX23
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:32 am

well....it just so happens that a goodly portion of those 40-60 pax ex-GVA bound for YUL are C-class pax, meaning they could fill an AC 763 C-class cabin. The Y-class could probably be sold quite well if advertised.
While it is true that ZRH is an important transit point, more than 600,000 pax transfer from GVA via ZRH because of the current LX system. So maybe it's just a matter of opening up a few more intercontinental routes ex-GVA to see that GVA could also become an important transit point if anyone took advantage of it.
 
RJ100
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:54 pm

Don't want to sound pessimistic but when CEO Franz speaks about "breaking taboos", then he certainly does not mean good things. He means things like outsourcing regional traffic, like outsourcing IT services (they are already in talks with Swisscom) etc.

I simply cannot see Swiss to base more aircraft in GVA. Their hub in ZRH is down to a critical minimum. If they take away more planes there, the hub system will collapse. And as confirmed by their CEO, they will not buy/lease more longhaul planes in the near future.

Of course I hope that you will get Air Canada. If Air Canada is able to fly the route is another question. A route like this needs several months or even years to become profitable. Let's assume there are 100 daily pax between the two cities, then a lot of them will keep flying Swiss, LH, BA, CO etc. because of loyality, frequent flyer miles etc. And with 100 pax you don't fill the plane which means that you need to do expensive advertising and sell the eco tickets for bargain prices. It just takes a long time until people realize that AC is flying the route.

Just a few thoughts. Good luck and regards,

RJ100
none
 
LX23
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 am

Actually RJ, I both agree and disagree with you.
when CEO Franz speaks about "breaking taboos", then he certainly does not mean good things
I will mostly agree with you that some of the taboos to be broken might come through such things as outsourcing certain routes, IT systems, etc. However, we can always hope those arent the only taboos he has in mind  Big grin stranger things HAVE happened at LX (such as dropping LCY and LHR ex-GVA)
then a lot of them will keep flying Swiss, LH, BA, CO etc. because of loyality, frequent flyer miles
Most people flying YUL-GVA on LH would gladly switch to AC, their preferred star alliance partner can give them a direct flight and shave off at least 2 or 3 hours' travelling time, while still getting FF miles, etc. As a matter of fact, the quickest flying times GVA-YUL actually using LH are GVA-FRA on LH, FRA-YUL on AC. Thus, most people would still rather use AC.
The single best option in terms of connections is AF, with 2x daily CDG-YUL and 10x daily GVA-CDG (with roughly 1 flight an hour during peak hours). After this comes LX, with their daily ZRH-YUL flight which, as Ezycrew stated, carries 40-60 pax ex-GVA (and as I stated before, a good portion of these pax are C-class pax). Also, as you are probably well aware, neither BA nor CO provide satisfying connections, the minimum travelling time on these airlines being 12 hours. Thus I would see the AC route doing quite well considering they could take LHs and possibly LXs pax, as well as perhaps some AF pax that would prefer to non-stop rather than transit through CDG.

Regards,
LX23
 
yul332LX
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:30 am

''...then a lot of them will keep flying Swiss, LH, BA, CO etc. ''

Exactly. ...and AF, AC (via CDG), etc.

That's why this route is a bit risky for AC. AFKL and all the others will fight them to keep their market-shares in the GVA/Rhône-YUL liaison.

Anyways, more alternatives are always a good thing for customers!
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
scf158
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:39 am

What about if AC and LX where to codeshare on the route?
 
yul332LX
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:48 am

LX is already flying to YUL so I don't see them getting into a codeshare with AC...
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
RJ100
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RE: Air Canada Back To Geneva?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:37 am

LX23 I see your point. I agree with you that people would use the direct flight but as mentioned above this takes time. And during this time AC cannot make profits on the route because of advertising costs, special deals etc. Not to mention that LH would not like a direct flight.

I am not saying that there is no demand. But routes like this need to be developped which costs money. And this could be a problem for AC because they are not in a great financial shape at the moment.

Good evening,
RJ100
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