flyyul
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WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:59 am

A revised WestJet schedule shows some significant scaling down of services offered to Montreal and Ottawa.

YUL before:

YYC 1
YVR 2
YYZ 7
YQM 1
YHZ 1
YWG 1 13 daily

YUL after:

YYC 1
YVR 1
YYZ 4
YWG 1 7 daily

YOW before:

YYC 1
YVR 1
YWG 1
YYZ 7
YEG 1 12 daily

YOW after:

YYC 2
YVR 1
YWG 1
YYZ 4
YEG 0 8 daily

Not good news for these guys.



 
luv2fly
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:01 pm

Would this be seasonal as demand drops during the winter season.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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ERJ170
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:03 pm

How saturated are the Canadian-Canadian markets?
Aiming High and going far..
 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:05 pm

This is also reflected in the summer schedule  Smile

Pretty grim
 
slawko
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:21 pm

HAHA Funny how you put a happy face next to the Pretty Grim line  Big grin

I'm just curious if those YYC, YWG, YVR, and YEG flights are non stop or VIA YZ??

Eitherway it's a sign that they underestimated demand, and the capabilities of their competition. But if the change improves their business and lets them use those aircraft on other more profitable routes then all the power to them...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:26 pm

Slawko,

If WestJet can succeed on big transcon markets like Montreal-Vancouver, how will they make money on Toronto-Kelowna?

 
slawko
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:29 pm

I dunno mark....but Clive does!!! He knows all, dont you know that??? HAHA  Big grin Dont worry buddy I'm with ya, just didnt want the flame war to start quite so early in the thread....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
connector4you
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:33 pm

Maybe charging too much . . . ?!?

YVR-YYZ Return fare for January 2005 (two weeks):

WJ C$310 No meals
AC C$315 Meals served both ways

 
ac7e7
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:35 pm

I think Clive is consulting Miss Cleo... Toronto-Kelowna in a 73G. If he makes money on it, all the power to him...

 
yhmfan
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:33 pm

I travel YYZ-YUL frequently. Just for fun I compared three airlines for a same day trip next Monday (December 6th)

Air Canada 19 flights a day with one way fares as low as $76 and $88

Jetsgo 11 flights a day with one way fares as low as $76 and $88

Westjet 6 flights a day with fares as low as $76.

I guess Westjet is not competing as well in the frequency department. If they cut it back to 4 flights a day thi is bad news indeed for Westjet.

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
captaingomes
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:47 pm

My biggest concern with Westjet is whether or not they can maintain their growth rates. They are taking in a large amount of aircraft, and have been able to produce strong profits up until now. But things are changing, and surprisingly, they dropped out of the YYZ - LAX market very quickly.

Westjet has lots of money to play with at the present time, but what happens if they can't fill the seats on all the new aircraft coming into the fleet? Money will run out, that's what will happen.

Despite what people think about Air Canada, they have a good inflight product, with unbeatable frequencies and perks, and that will continue to draw in the business traveler. Also, there is Jetsgo which is the bargain basement alternative, and they have essentially convinced the traveling public that they are the cheapest way to get from here to there. Westjet is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the public wont see it as the cheap alternative, and plus they don't offer enough to draw away passengers at the upper end from Air Canada.

Interesting situation indeed, but I don't think Westjet is in any imminent danger.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:09 pm

I wonder if Westjet is suffering from the same fate as CP? Ie, an unwillingness for Montrealers to support a Western-based carrier?

I'm not worried about Westjet. They are already arguably the most successful airline in Cdn history. They have a competent mgmt team (rare in Canada!) and good employee morale (also rare in Canada). WJ is also embarking on a massive transborder expansion which will fuel growth for years to come.

YYZ-LAX was perhaps a mistake as there are already 5 airlines in that market.

I do think that WJ will need a smaller aircraft than the 736 to effectively compete in many markets. Whether the CRJ-900 or EMB-175/190.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ac7e7
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:11 pm

I would have to agree with you CaptainGomes. They are by no means in any imminent danger, however, it is starting to become difficult as to where Westjet fits in all of this. Westjet just cannot match Air Canada on frequency. Business travelers want frequency, and are willing to pay for it. Both Air Canada and Westjet will have IFE at every seat. Both have shiny new planes. Air Canada will have a new fleet of regional aircraft that will allow it to serve smaller communities while still making money. Wesjet will be limited to where it will be able to fly profitably because of their larger aircraft.

Wesjet will have to invest in new regional aircraft if it wants to compete with AC. But then this leaves Westjet where? Not quite a LCC, not a no-frills carrier. A domestic-only CP that has brought down the prices in the marketplace. Unless it decided to go back to its roots, get out of the bigger cities and focus on the routes that made Westjet the success it had become. Then again, Air Canada will be flying smaller, lighter regional jets into those cities as well. Rock and a hard place indeed.

 
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yyz717
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:24 pm

Let's remember that WJ has a fantastic credit rating. It will be able to procure new aircraft at much better financing rates than even the new AC, which will keep its lease costs below AC. Combined with continued lower unit costs than AC, the future for WJ is bright. IMO.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:39 pm

"unwillingness for Montrealers to support a Western-based carrier"

-Neil.. dont start with the excuses bud.

WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA.

 
yvrtoyyz
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:42 pm

I agree with the aforementioned statements re: WestJet not being able to have their own niche with which they could advertise and succeed in.

One subject that hasn't been referred to is the role of JetsGo in this. They are the ones driving the costs down and Air Canada and WestJet are forced to play catch-up, especially on the corridor route of YUL-YYZ, YVR-YEG/YYC.

Example:

JetsGo YUL-YYZ mid-Dec - $53
Air Canada YUL-YYZ (same dates) - range from $149-$76 (prices dropped to $53 after JetsGo)
WestJet YUL-YYZ (same date) - $88 (dropped to $53 after JetsGo and Air Canada)

The real drive in the Canadian aviation market is no longer price as all the carriers have the same price; its more a matter of service and airline loyalty and availability. An example of this is the above route (YUL-YYZ) I have booked AC YUL-YYZ and WS YYZ-YUL not because of price differences, but the schedule suited me better. And the loss to me - none because I get both Aeroplan and AirMiles accumulated. However, flying TransCon (ie. YUL-YVR), I have noticed that AC has had the better fares ($89 each way June/July 2004) plus the bonus of aircraft choice, meals and movie; but again all those are extras and price is the determining factor.

So where does WS fit in? They certainly will have to offer more than personal IFE (since AC is getting/has that); Buy-On-Board (since AC offers meals, even to Tango fares); aircraft choice (B737-700 or B736 for WS) or various narrow and widebodies for AC; schedule (AC has advantage on the YUL-YYZ corridor). Their fares are no longer 'cheap' relative to other airlines, because all the airlines are the same.

While I support both WS and AC, it will be interesting how these two airlines compete with each other and what 'extras' passengers can expect in order to lure more business.

-YVRtoYYZ
 
yukimizake
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:50 pm

If AC can maintain sustained profitability on their international routes and also succeed with the smaller lighter regional jets when they arrive next year it will be interesting to see if they then engage in predatory pricing on those routes they compete with WJ. However, sustained profitability is still a pretty big if.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
ac7e7
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:53 pm

That may be true, however, fantastic credit ratings don't fill planes. Bringing on an additional aircraft type would require a large investment both in training costs as well as acquisition costs. Air Canada will still do well despite the higher operating costs thanks to high yielding international routes, as well as unmatched frequencies and international connections through Star Alliance partners.

I think WJ does have a bright future ahead, no doubt about it. However, as they expand from a domestic carrier serving smaller communities, to a domestic carrier serving most major cities, to a transborder carrier, then eventually an international carrier, its costs will rise very high.

Let's note the rise and fall of Wardair and Canada 3000, two companies that were very good at providing a specific product, until they wanted to fly directly against Air Canada.
 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:12 pm

What is predatory pricing?

Because matching one's fare is competitive.. not predatory!

Just a friendly reminder before this debate goes any further  Smile

 
yvrtoyyz
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:14 pm

Do Ontarians and Quebecors not sleep?
 
yukimizake
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:18 pm

Predatory pricing to temporarily offer a price so low that you lose money on it. The intent is to force your competitor to do the same and drive them out of that particular market.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
ac7e7
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:20 pm


Don't even get me started on predatory pricing........  Angry
 
connector4you
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:26 pm

I would agree that WestJet doesn't have a niche market as we speak. They rather seem to be the choice of all disgruntled AC passengers.

At least JetsGo carries people that otherwise could not afford flying at all. And there are a lot of them out there !





 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:26 pm

I tend to disagree..

In a free market, all competitors have the right to offer a good and service essentially at any price.


If WestJet/Leblanc Air or anybody else would like to offer a price, AC has every right to match it.

Although AC's unit costs are probably higher than WestJet, they are not so significantly higher than a low fare would be profitable for one, yet unprofitable for another.

Anybody have those CASM costs again for AC and WS?


 
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yyz717
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:36 pm

WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA.

Maybe those markets are soft for all carriers.

Or maybe WJ was happy enough in YUL/YOW, but had more lucrative routes elsewhere.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ac7e7
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:37 pm

That's the problem though. Canada is a free market unless the government decides it wants to run it. The government won't get the hell out of the airline industry. They must allow the airlines to compete in a free market.
 
yvrtoyyz
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:38 pm

At least JetsGo carries people that otherwise could not afford flying at all.

But how many are being retained?

While WS has a solid, long-term marketing plan, Air Canada also has a plan to ensure their success as well. For WS, this means dropping or reducing flights on various routes in order to remain profitable. For AC, this means (amongst other things), the acquisition of new RJs in order to compete and become/remain profitable. The big question is, who has succeeded in gaining and maintaining customer loyalty. If WS customer base is purely on those disgruntled former-AC passengers, then they don't have much of a leg to stand on as AC continues to improve their service. However, if WS's customer base is constructed of various types (ie. business, family, students, etc) who appreciate WS for their product and not as a means to spite AC, then they will remain successful.

With pricing no longer being an issue between AC and WS as both have similar airfare, airline service and the products (meals, IFE, movie, phone, etc) that they offer will be what determines an airlines success on the routes where those two compete.

If it weren't for the high tax and fee levels, it would be a great time to fly in Canada.

-YVRtoYYZ
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:34 pm

I think AC is once again gaining a foothold (and certainly loyalty) with the introduction of the Rapidair and Latitude Passes. Not to mention also the flexibility of their online booking engine and the transparency (giving many choices and yet letting customers choose level of restrictions).

I for one think AC could be headed in the right direction afterall (after being skeptical at first), or is it too early to say?
 
yow
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:23 am

WestJet is dying in Montreal and OTTAWA.

In Ottawa's case, I wouldn't say they're dying here, far from it. It's more the problem of too much new capacity added (read to YYZ, even though YOW-YEG is being dropped) too quickly.

Currently YOW has up to 23 flights daily to YYZ/YTZ on AC, 5 daily on SG and 7 daily on WS.

That's an insane amount of Ottawa-Toronto capacity, exceeding the number of seats offered during the days of AC & CP going head-to-head.

Even at 8 daily WS departures, that's still 1x daily more YOW frequency than they had during last winter 03-04. So again, they're hardly dying in YOW, just better matching capacity to demand. Again though can YYZ-YLW really make more money than YOW-YEG a second daily YUL-YVR or a combined YUL-YOW-YEG flight like AC does during the softer winter months? I really question that move by WS.

In the case of YUL, it probably is more due to Montrealers' undying loyalty to AC as the root of YUL's cutbacks.
 
AC_B777
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:57 am

I'll go further east to YYT and say that things are not as expected with WS here.
They have dropped frequency to YYT as well. I can't remember the exact number of flights WS had here, but last week when I was working midnights, I only saw one WS flight in four nights. That's a big drop from what it used to be.
People out east will not stay loyal to WS if they are only flying in here a couple of times a week. If people can't fly on the days they want to, then they will choose another airline.
While AC has also dropped frequency here in YYT, there are still plenty of flights to choose from.
CO express has also dropped from daily YYT-EWR to a couple of times a week. SG continues daily YYZ-YYT-YYZ.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
yvrtoyyz
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:07 am

People out east will not stay loyal to WS if they are only flying in here a couple of times a week. If people can't fly on the days they want to, then they will choose another airline.

You're right; if a company cannot provide a product that will satisfy customers, the customers will simply choose a different company - simple law of marketing. However, since CanJet is based in Halifax and identifies itself as 'The Maritimes Airline', Newfies and the like have the option of flying with an airline that is based in their region. The same thing goes, especially in the early days, for the West and those flying WestJet.

However, one cannot blame WS and AC for reducing their schedule to these cities in the Maritimes if their loads and profitability are being reduced; it just doesn't make economic sense.
 
accargo
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:10 am

I believe that WJ's expectations were too high for it's YUL and YOW flights have been and has decided to pull back a bit and shift those acft to more profitable routes. We also must remember that summer domestic scheds usually have more frequencies than winter. WJ's charter flying is greater this winter than in the past as well, so some acft are being used there instead of on YYZ-YUL or YOW runs.

I'm still not convinced of WJ's profitablilty with future Transborder expansion. I'd like to see which routes they are thinking about. When they started T/B flights they choose what they thought would be the most profitable destinations. Their "A" list so to speak. One of their "A" list, YYZ-LAX was a no-go, so where else will they try that can work profitably?

I don't see them having any problems in the future, but I do see their growth tailing off somewhat.
 
yukimizake
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:06 am

With WS failing to make an impact in Eastern Canada maybe they should, as their name suggests, focus on being a regional carrier out west.

Instead of trying to compete with AC, SG and C6 on low margin routes in Eastern Canada they would be better off using their fleet on transborder routes out of YVR, YYC and YEG.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
ywg777
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:43 am

first off Westjet added a 7th flight between YWG-YOW to make it 1 flight a day. Second off Westjet never did have 2x YWG-YUL. It was always 1 daily flight. I don't know where you got your information from but its wrong.

Shawn
 
AC_B777
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:04 am

Western and eastern Canada are obviously two different operating environments. There is more population base in BC and AB than in NS, NB, NL and PEI and trying to sustain at least four airlines in this region is hard. AC's market in the east is still ok, but as pointed out by YVRtoYYZ Canjet is eastern Canada's airline, and I think WS is having a hard time gaining its foothold in this region.
Canjet, from what I can see, is doing relatively good in the east, offering flights to the USA. And because they have the frequency that WS and even SG don't have, it makes them a stronger airline. Next to AC, they have more flights to YYT and I would guess even YHZ.
It's great if you're out west and WS has the flights to meet the demand, but if you're in a city such as St. John's and you only offer one flight every second or third day, then it won't make the cut.
I don't know how SG is doing out east, but I think WS should try and match the same frequency as them and possibly offer YYT-YYZ-YYC or YYT-YHZ-YYC flights with the same flight numbers and a/c and no long layovers.
I know when AC had flt 185 YYT-YHZ-YYC, about 90% of the loads were to YYC. It was a popular flight.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
flyyul
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:28 am

Shawn,

Please put on your glasses.. it says 1 DAILY YUL-YWG!

 
robsawatsky
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:23 am

The competition has really expanded too widely for AC to use predatory pricing tactics. Losing money as a competitive edge isn't really a good long-term strategy anyway, unless the strategy is to go back into CCAA protection. My guess would be that with AC's new cost models, they can set fares to be competitive across enough of the market to keep Westjet, Jetsgo, Canjet and any others on their toes without losing money themself. With no major in-country competitors on international routes, other than transborder, AC is in a better competitive position than it has been for some time.

I think AC in the past believed size and marketshare were more important than profits, almost to the point of religion domestically, but have now come to realize there is more than one way to succeed. The new challenge appears to be on the transborder front, and who knows how the scene will change if a truer version of Open Skies ever comes about between Canada-USA.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:51 am

My apologies if I missed anything in this thread, but there was a lot to read.

If WestJet/Leblanc Air or anybody else would like to offer a price, AC has every right to match it.

No longer is Air Canada considered the "dominant airline". The dominant airline has now become route specific (which in most cases, is still Air Canada). If airline "X" wants to offer $10 fares, airlines "Y" and "Z" are free to match it. Keeping that in mind......

Westjet is the meat in the bologna sandwich - Air Canada has the higher end (more expensive) traffic, and Jetsgo has the lower end (cheaper) traffic. Jetsgo has taken over the title as the "lowest fare airline" by charging fares that are lower than Westjet on most of its routes. Westjet will (it's already started) now start to offer seat sales to match or price slightly below Jetsgo. I feel that Westjet has more to offer in terms of value, so where is Jetsgo to go when those $1, 2-1, and $59 seat sales are being matched by competitors?

Jetsgo will have a very hard time surviving a price war when its competitors are matching dollar for dollar its seat sales, including 2-1's and $1 sales. When all three carriers - SG, WJ, AC - offer the same ticket prices, the value of that ticket will be the biggest factor in a customer, or potential customer, chosing an airline. Both Air Canada and Westjet offer more value than Jetsgo.

Westjet is having a tough time on some routes, sure. What most people don't know is that the recent change in our schedule (as highlighted by FLYYUL) includes a lot of shifting around of flight times and schedules into other cities. If we have to drop our frequencies on some routes, then so be it. I'd rather cut our losses sooner than later.

Some cities (YYT, YQX, for example) are very seasonal. When we launched those cities we had 4x weekly service during the winter, and daily (or in the case of YYT, double daily) service. A drop in our frequency does not mean we are having a tough time.
EH.
 
Tennisace
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:11 am

The fact that Westjet does appear to be adjusting seasonal frequencies would indicate that they ARE feeling the competition in those particular cities, since I'm pretty sure Westjet has never reduced their winter schedule/frequencies until this year. Before this year they never had a need to, but now with Jetsgo/Canjet coming on strong there is a need to reduce losses (maximize revenue?) and switch capacity to other routes...........

I flew the TANGO route CYYZ-CYLW-CYXX back in summer 2002 and about 3/4 of the passengers got off in Kelowna (flight almost full). So this route may do well for Westjet.

I too think that in order to continue with their expansion they will need a smaller aircraft type. I don't think the B737-600 will cut it. They will lose ground to AC CRJ's & ERJ's. I'm sure CYXX-CYYC, CYYJ-CYYC, CYXU-CYYC, CYXE/CYQR-CYYZ and maybe CYEG-KLAX, CYEG-KSFO will see resumption/added frequencies from Air Canada just adding to the competitive environment.
 
connector4you
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:22 pm

Yukimizake
Instead of trying to compete with AC, SG and C6 on low margin routes in Eastern Canada they would be better off using their fleet on transborder routes out of YVR, YYC and YEG.


That's the right thing to do.

They should keep doing the YUL, YYZ, YWG,YOW with convenient frequencies to allow international connections trough YYZ and YUL.

 
yow
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:00 pm

They should keep doing the YUL, YYZ, YWG,YOW with convenient frequencies to allow international connections trough YYZ and YUL.

What's the point without any interline agreements? I know CX keeps getting talked about, but if this were to happen, increased YVR frequencies would make the most sense.

Like others have said, Atlantic Canada is CanJet's territory, so WS will remain a distant #3 or #4 in the region. Take YQM for example. This was WS' first ever eastern market. C6 is now larger than WS in YQM. Likewise, when CanJet expands out west, they'll be the #3 or #4 carrier.

Even in central Canada C6's presence, in terms of frequency, is beginning to match that of WestJet. After WS' YOW cutbacks WS will have 8 daily vs 6 daily for C6 and C6 will probably be bigger than WS in YHM within a couple years.
 
connector4you
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:10 am

Interline agreements similar to the one with Cathay out of Vancouver would be highly desirable out of YYZ/YUL and . . . maybe extended to airlines serving US hubs ? !

 
sebring
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RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:13 am

Interline agreements may be desirable, but they are not without costs. You have to physically interline baggage, issue forward boarding passes, etc., which is a new expense.


Maybe those markets are soft for all carriers.

Or maybe WJ was happy enough in YUL/YOW, but had more lucrative routes elsewhere.


In the past two weeks I have made three YYZ-YUL round trips. All but one flight was on a widebody (includine one 330), the other on a 321. All flights but the one of the 330 (a 3 p.m. flight), were chock a block including a 767-200 at 10 am, and there were about 200-210 passengers on the 330. I passed the WJ counter many times, and even lingered a couple of times. Invariably, they had a lot of staff hanging around with little or nothing to do. Staff may be cheaper than AC's CAW people, but if they have nothing to do, well, the meter is running. On AC flights you do see an awful lot of suits, and you hear a good bit of French. With AC's fare structure, the yield is a lot bigger. While WJ's YYZ-YUL fare is usually its lowest, AC's lowest fare is higher on most flights to begin with, and then a lot of people are buying up. AC's latest wrinkle is to allow confirmed same day flight changes for $50 at the airport without having to pay any fare difference, which is going to have a lot of Tango customers booking up...As a matter of fact, it is an interesting competitive move since none of the low-cost carriers allow a similar privilege. They will charge the $30 fee plus the fare difference if there is one.
 
yukimizake
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:20 am

RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:35 pm

So back to the original post, thats 10 fewer flights per day into YUL and YOW. Does anyone know how WS are utilizing these freed up planes?. Which cities have seen increased frequencies? have they introduced new routes?
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:41 pm

I've heard that there is a huge increase in charter flying over this winter for WJ. (Transat, Sunquest etc.)
 
frmyqr
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:53 am

RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:51 pm

yqr-yyc has an extra freq. Starting jan.10.
i'm from regina. Heard of it?
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1349
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:20 pm

Gentlemen,

I guess what it comes down to at the end, aside price , is frequencies. How does WJ really think they would be able to capture the business passengers with 5 or 6 dailies to YUL from YYZ.

I have just booked a flight to YUL..and yes, I am paying more to fly AC and get the times that I want!!

WJ made a mistake and they are paying for it.
 
320tech
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:38 am

RE: WestJet Having A Tough In Montreal And Ottawa

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:55 pm

I'm surprised no one has speculated so far on the role of Westjet's spy scandal. It seems pretty plain from media reports so far that Westjet adapted their flights to take advantage of AC's weaknesses. That avenue has been blocked - now WS has to take their chances like everyone else.

Now, come on, all you Clive Beddoins, defend your hero.  Smile
The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.