FLY777UAL
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AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:42 pm

I know that through the Bermuda II agreement, RDU is not one of the "approved" cities with the authority to operate into Heathrow, however thinking back to some of the loop holes which BA has used, I was wondering if these would be applicable to AA, as well.

SAN and PHX originally operated to LGW, both before and after they received separate flights, however were later switched over to LHR. This was due to a clause which basically stated that if any other airline wasn't operating between London and that particular city, then the flight could be operated out of Heathrow.

Was this clause written strictly for BA, or does it apply to everyone?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:46 pm

The clause does not apply to US airlines, IIRC.

Besides, traffic on RDU-LGW probably does not meet the requirments even if US carriers could do the switch as well.
a.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:00 pm

Under the Bermuda II agreement, since only two U.S./UK air carriers are allowed to fly to LHR/LGW and the two U.S. Air carriers being AA/UA, and the British carrier being BA, why hasn't some other UK air carrier (i.e. British Midlands-though they fly to ORD from MAN) taken over? Is it because there is too much competition? VS was there for a small amount of time...but they ended it after 9/11....

I dont think Air India qualifies since they aren't a US/UK-based carrier, and even when BA/VS operating ORD-LHR, AI was still flying ORD-LHR...

any opinions?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:25 pm

BD doesn't have rights to fly from LHR to the USA, simple as that.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:27 pm

SAN and PHX originally operated to LGW *** however were later switched over to LHR.

So was DEN




This was due to a clause which basically stated that if any other airline wasn't operating between London and that particular city, then the flight could be operated out of Heathrow.

You left out the most important part: only ~IF~ the lone airline's operation to that city met the through-traffic threshold, over a 2yr period, required
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N1120A
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:31 pm

AA also flys their DFW flights to LGW. They don't want to use precious LHR slots on a flight that is already a guarenteed money maker. Also, BA offers a good number of connections from LGW, so they are not at too much of a loss there.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:35 pm

...thing is, many/most of the cnnx BA offers at LGW, could be flown nonstop over the water on AA anyways. Rather negligible, in most cases.
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N1120A
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:40 pm

>...thing is, many/most of the cnnx BA offers at LGW, could be flown nonstop over the water on AA anyways. Rather negligible, in most cases.<

I don't think AA will be doing many cities in Italy from RDU for a while.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:41 pm

I was [obviously] speaking of the entire AA transatlantic system... not the lone flight via RDU
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N1120A
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:46 pm

>I was [obviously] speaking of the entire AA transatlantic system... not the lone flight via RDU<

Obviously.  Big thumbs up

BTW, your onepass parody site is great.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:51 pm

BTW, your onepass parody site is great.

Thanks.

I haven't worked on it in a while... but 'course, when El Loco Gordo retires next month, I should have ample fodder  Big thumbs up
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JoFMO
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:24 pm

It was also mentioned that the RDU flight relies mostly to one big company in that area. And it's European headquarter is based not far from LGW. So why move your flight to LHR when the most important passenger flow goes next to LGW?
 
donder10
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 am

If it's referring to Glaxo then that is wrong,JoFMO,as it's London HQ is about 5/6 miles east of LHR.
 
rwylie77
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:19 am

No I don't think it is Glaxo, from memory it is Pfizer, which is closer to LGW.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:21 am

I think if AA could shift to LHR, they probably would. It would make most of the companies in the Triangle happy, which is the reason behind the LGW flight. But I think that due to the Bermuda II agreement, AA just can't do it. RDU is a specific gateway only to LGW. I don't think there is a loophole past that.
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prosa
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 am

No I don't think it is Glaxo, from memory it is Pfizer, which is closer to LGW.

It's Glaxo, whose U.S. headquarters is in the Research Triangle Park not too far from RDU.
Pfizer's headquarters is in New York City, and its main research center is in eastern Connecticut, reasonably close to PVD and BDL.
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:17 am

GSK is closer to LHR.. Pfizer is closer to LGW... But GSK is in RTP and Pfizer is in CT (with no facility in RTP, which in itself is quite strange).
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BigOrange
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:34 am

Aventis also use the flight, or they did a couple of years ago when I worked on their travel account.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:30 am

The aforementioned Aventis was bought out by Bayer a couple of years ago. Recently, Bayer announced that they were going to move their Crop Sciences HQ to RTP. Currently, their Biological products HQ is already in RTP (althought it is in the process of being sold). Therefore, the RDU-LGW route could be utilized more for travel to Germany...
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:08 pm

I was just looking at the stats at rdu.com for the month of October...

an interesting tidbit I saw was International Enplanements and Deplanements... the only international destinations from RDU in OCT were LGW and NAS. YYZ was not considered international. NAS (AE E135)only lasted for 2 weekends, 2 flights a day... Total NAS service lasted 9 months...

International enplanements... OCT 2004...7205... YTD... 76321
International deplanements... OCT 2004...7459... YTD... 79687

Guessing NAS probably averaged 200 enplaned passengers over the 2 weekends, that leaves 7005 for LGW.. at 31 days.. averaged 225 pax/day.. the 777 seats 245 I think.. so I would have to say that the LGW flight does pretty damn well for RDU despite the subsidies... taking into account for the YTD (again assuming 100 pax/weekend to NAS for 9 months).. the average is 239 pax/day to LGW...

Interesting, no? However, these are all assumptions, but the figures are real from the RDU website. http://www.rdu.com/AboutRDU/stats/activityreports/activity-1004.pdf
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Ealsys1
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:43 pm

The aforementioned Aventis was bought out by Bayer a couple of years ago.

Aventis was purchased by Sanofi, not Bayer. Bayer is actually pulling out of the Pharma business in the US and transferring over their products to Schering.

Whew...sorry for the Pharmaceutical stuff, but I'm in the industry!

Sam
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:56 pm

I too am in the Pharmaceutical Industry. I worked for Bayer until March this year. Bayer Cropscience did, in fact, buy Aventis Cropscience. The Aventis Pharmaceutics was not purchased or merged with Bayer. Bayer is not pulling out the Pharma, but pulling out the Biological Products business. They are selling their BP HQ, also in RTP, and a buyer should be announced shortly.

Bayer Environmental Science plans to relocate its North American operations from Montvale, N.J., and Birmingham, Ala., to Research Triangle Park, which is the Americas region headquarters for Bayer CropScience.

From http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2004/11/08/daily36.html

Bayer announced today that it has bought Aventis CropScience, which employs 600 people at its Research Triangle Park headquarters, from Aventis and Schering for $6.65 billion.

From http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2001/10/01/daily14.html
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masseybrown
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:38 pm

ERJ170, as I read the RDU report I don't see any reason to think that the 7,205 international passengers shown all traveled on non-stop flights. I believe this number includes the passengers connecting through other hubs.

I'd rather count on the British CAA numbers shown at:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/200410/October_2004_Provisional_International_Routes.pdf

Scroll down to page 43 and the Brits report RDU-LGW total traffic for October to be 8,552 or (divided by 31 days and 2 directions) about 138 pax per flight to or from LGW - a load factor in the mid-fifties, which really isn't all that bad for the off-season.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:00 am

The RDU Intl numbers do not count connectors only locals.

However they probably do count charter operations, and I know one charter airline that has at least two Intl 727 flights a week sometimes more.

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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:09 am

What ever happened to Falcon Air Express.. they don't fly into RDU anymore.. And yeah, I forgot all about them... At one point, they did have about 2x weekly flights to the Bahamas..
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MAH4546
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:14 am

Guessing NAS probably averaged 200 enplaned passengers over the 2 weekends, that leaves 7005 for LGW.. at 31 days.. averaged 225 pax/day.. the 777 seats 245 I think.. so I would have to say that the LGW flight does pretty damn well for RDU despite the subsidies... taking into account for the YTD (again assuming 100 pax/weekend to NAS for 9 months).. the average is 239 pax/day to LGW...

AA's 777s seat 224 passengers, not 245.

Loadwise, the flight does okay, much better in the summer. Tomorrow's flight is less than half full, and that's the norm for the next few weeks.

The route gets a lot of connecting passengers from Miami, who find cheaper fares on MIA-RDU-LGW than MIA-LHR.

For example, 7-day advance purchase on MIA-LHR non-stop in Y is $2300.

Same for MIA-RDU-LGW is $1,000 less.


[Edited 2004-12-01 01:22:09]
a.
 
Ealsys1
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:27 am

ERJ170,

I stand corrected. I know about the "general pharma" reps who just got laid off from Bayer and got offered jobs at Schering to sell Bayer products (Levitra, Avelox, etc).

Sam
 
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ERJ170
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:37 am

AA's 777s seat 224 passengers, not 245.

AA has 2 different configurations on their 777 fleet.. the Atlantic and the Pacific.. I think I am correct when I say the Atlantic config has 245 and the Pacific have 224.

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ourPlanes/boeing777.jhtml

Edit: Oops.. didn't know that was you Mark. You probably know how many are on the AA Atlantic. I must be wrong then, My bad...

[Edited 2004-12-01 01:40:33]
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nosedive
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RE: AA's RDU-LGW To LHR?

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:36 pm

Under the Bermuda II agreement, since only two U.S./UK air carriers are allowed to fly to LHR/LGW and the two U.S. Air carriers being AA/UA, and the British carrier being BA, why hasn't some other UK air carrier (i.e. British Midlands-though they fly to ORD from MAN) taken over? Is it because there is too much competition? VS was there for a small amount of time...but they ended it after 9/11....

Better not be on VS004 then! Virgin is the other UK airline that flies USA-LHR routes, under the B2. And just to clarify, the "4 airline rule" of the B2 (2 US airlines and 2 UK airlines on USA-LHR routes) only applies to LHR. If it applied to LGW then how can one explain why US, DL, CO, and NW fly there?

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