greaser
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Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:43 pm

John Leahy has announced that an 'unidentified' Asian carrier has signed for 5 A380-800s, with China Southern Airlines and Air China as the main suspects.
Apparently they are trying to snap up production slots for delivery before the 2008 Olympics
Now you're really flying
 
lehpron
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:48 pm

If they feel they will need them for their own selves...

US airlines don't seem to, people like frequency, I'm sure that will change at some point in the [distant] future.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:32 pm

US airlines don't seem to, people like frequency, I'm sure that will change at some point in the [distant] future.

People like frequency in Asia too, it's something of a myth that there's this big cultural difference. ANA flies something like 21 flights per day between Tokyo and Osaka, for example - on 777's and 747's!

There's just so much demand that even with frequent flights, large airplanes are still required on some routes.

Of course, some airports are also slot-limited, but I don't know if this is true of Beijing (since the Olympics were mentioned). I would think capacity would be an issue in any city with that kind of population, though.

And I can understand wanting to be ready for the Olympics; they'd no doubt be getting a lot of new fliers and not only would the extra capacity be necessary, but it'd be a prestige thing too, flying this brand new plane that also happens to be the largest in the world.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Udo
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:17 pm

I cannot hear that ridiculous "frequency" argument anymore. Only totally uninformed people without any clue of aviation deny that the A380 will be needed in the future. Are some people not ABLE to realize the problems of congested airports like Narita, London/LHR, Frankfurt, just to name a few? Strange that these "frequency" preachers mostly come from the U.S...I suggest for some of these guys to leave their beloved ERJ heavens in mid-Texas only once and check out what's going on in the world...something great in the Midwest does not work anywhere else. But some will never get that in their heads.

Certainly Chinese airlines need the A380, they grow like crazy and more and more people in China will be in a position to afford flying.
1. Check current timetables of Chinese airlines
2. Check their fleet development over the past years
3. Check passenger growth figures within Asia (especially China)

Then I recommend the following: continue to talk trash or just shut up.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:26 pm

that ridiculous "frequency" argument anymore.

...you mean that some one which history's proven time and time again?




Strange that these "frequency" preachers mostly come from the U.S

...you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jasepl
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:33 pm

you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?

Be that as it may, something tells me if Boeing or Lockheed had come up with something the size of a 380 (or even something bigger) many of the same people currrently bashing it would be singing its praises!  Big grin
 
Udo
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:58 pm

Hi Fred,

As usual you stick to two-sentence-replies…well, no surprise.


Of course frequencies have gone up and will always go up, I do not deny that. I only criticise the “frequency only”-view. Certainly airlines would always add frequencies instead off larger jets…in many markets they are free to do so. In some very important markets they cannot. Simple as that. Narita, Heathrow and Frankfurt are history-proven congested airports and nothing will change there in the coming years.

The U.S. is the largest aviation market but in terms of growth Asia and especially China will send it to second place in the not very distant future. However, even today many things work different in the U.S. and you know that very well. I was talking about thousands of regional jet which find a perfect playing ground in the U.S., but not in other parts of the world. Adding frequencies on Kansas City-Austin markets (or whatever) is easier than Narita-London/LHR. That’s what I meant and I don’t want to tell it again.

And btw, “the world’s largest and most advanced” aviation market hasn’t had a significant importance for the history of the B747. Being dependant on U.S. airlines, the B747 would not have survived very long…and the same goes for the A380.



Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:48 pm

As usual you stick to two-sentence-replies…well, no surprise.

Indeed... I tend follow the K.I.S.(f)S. philosophy  Laugh out loud




and especially China will send it to second place in the not very distant future

No doubt China will get there eventually, but they've got a lonnnnnnng way to go. Growth is impressive, yes, but their market needs a much more fortified "foundation" inorder to sustain said growth (longterm) than it currently has.



You're going to see the same defragmentation in Europe that's currently in the USA... though the experience of having already seen what to expect may be counteracted by cultural/political barriers within the EU.

Asia's a different dynamic due to the terrain and lack of highways, but still, you'll see it there to a degree... just not nearly as much.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
aerosol
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:44 pm

Where do you want to put the frequency? There are only certain time frames where it makes sense to fly to Europe or to the US from Asia.
 
Russophile
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:57 pm

Growth is impressive, yes, but their market needs a much more fortified "foundation" inorder to sustain said growth (longterm) than it currently has

1.2 billion people, and an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income', and additionally an expanding business environment. You can't ask for more of a 'fortified foundation' than this.  Insane
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:12 pm

1.2 billion people

...how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?  Insane



an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income'

Still in many instances stifled by archaic international travel stipulations...




and additionally an expanding business environment

which only loops back to the original statement... great job  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
na
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:28 pm

The vastness and relative emptyness of the the major part of the USA doesn´t make the most advanced country in aviation a showcase for the world.
 
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:57 pm


Sorry, but I'm totally with Udo on this one. How does a thread about a new chinese carrier ordering the A380 evolve into a justification thread for why US carriers haven't ordered any and the usual defence of "the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?" Clearly a reflection of the level of insecurity and latent over-defensiveness on behalf of some here.

The frequency debate is crap and you all know it. US carriers are so 'advanced' and impressive that they are struggling to survive, let alone order new aircraft.

It makes sense for China to see A380s. If any of you have been to China at all recently, you will notice the very obvious and significant explosion in wealth creation and income for the new middle class. Sure, on an individual level, their personal wealth has a long way to go but within 10 years, China's GDP will outstrip the US...people are going to travel and there are alot of them!

The A380 will be a huge success. I can see no other solution to slot-restricted airports like LHR, NRT,SYD. The fact that US carriers can't afford the A380 is irrelevant to this post.


Long Haul is the only way to go
 
Russophile
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:13 pm

...how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?

Probably about the same percentage of Americans who possess a passport which would require them to fly on anything larger than 737.

Additionally, you should find out a bit on what you talk about. The first freeway opened in China in 1993, and by 2002, China had some 19,000km of freeway, the second longest freeway system in the world. Not bad for a nation in which not many 'regularly patronise an automobile'.

Source: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/weekly/aa_freeway02a.htm

The fact is, China is growing at an exponential rate which would make all countries green with envy, and as such, their aviation industry is also growing at the same rate, and they will need such capacity into the future.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:17 pm

Its fairly obvious that American carriers AREN'T interested in passenger density on routes, just (as stated) frequency. Not to mention most of these guys aren't in the financial position to buy anything with a price tag like the A380.

AA? They just had that falling out with Airbus. The've got close to 1,000 planes already.
CO? I HIGHLY doubt it. They're Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy =/
DL? Definitly not.
UA? With all those 744s in the desert, I think not, batman!
B6? NO.


Add a few more to the list. The A380 doesn't readily fit into a struggling market, not to mention in fleets in which a 747 hasn't been in a while. The only US carrier WITH a 744 has already put some-large-two-digit-number of them in a desert along with countless 777s. These have the most passenger capacity (In UAL's fleet). At this moment, I can't see any U.S. carrier ordering a 380 any time in the next five to ten years.

Udo is right. Chinise figures are definitly more convincing. I mean, Boeing did kinda have to create the 744D for them, right?
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:19 pm

Yeah... I hate how bloody elitist and stuck-up we Americans cane me x__x
 
N754PR
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:19 pm

Americans dont know very much about Asia do they......

The only 744D's are in JAPAN.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Russophile
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:27 pm

Pyro, just a small correction. Don't forget NW also has 744s.  Big grin
 
keesje
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:46 pm


If I want from AMS to e.g. SEA I have one daily direct flight

If I accept 1 stop I have 8 alternatives via big HUB-HUB flights to DTW, MSP and MEM.

The full wide bodies flying those routes will lower my ticket price.

Superior Price & Flexibility

I guess who decides; You.....r boss.

Welcome to the real world.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:56 pm

**""AA? They just had that falling out with Airbus. The've got close to 1,000 planes already.
CO? I HIGHLY doubt it. They're Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy =/
DL? Definitly not.
UA? With all those 744s in the desert, I think not, batman!
B6? NO. ""**

CO's Airbus fleet is kinda skimpy? Where have you been for at least the last 5 years? The A300s have been gone for a while

You left NW off of that list. IF any American carrier besides a cargo carrier bought the A380, it would be Northwest.
 
RT514
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:32 pm

Nice posts, Udo.
Whether it is ignorance or denial is irrelevant. The fact is that China's enormous growth makes it a very interesting place to watch from an economic sense and it is poised to play an important role in global economics for years to come. Even with the skyrocketing value of the Euro, China's consumption has helped Europe (and various countries with suddenly higher valued currencies) to not experience a trade deficit, despite the disadvantage that would otherwise come with a higher currency. I never understood why so many around here were previously skeptical that Asian airlines other than SQ would buy the A380. The "frequency argument" and the "Asia is faithful to Boeing" mantras were getting really old, really fast.


Don't forget NW also has 744s.

Yes, and I firmly believe that the A380 will be wearing NW colors by the end of this decade.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:47 pm

I left NW off the list for that reason, dude =O

And yeah, the "skimpy" remark is sarcasm....
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:07 am

how many of which regularly patronize an automobile, much less an aircraft?

For my company, China is one of the main spear points. Our car sales have been increasing with astronomic numbers in the last few years and we are building a new factory in cooperation with the Chinese. And we are not building the cheapest cars around...

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
airbazar
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:15 am

Like I always say, you can stick you head in the sand and go the way of McDonald Douglas, Eastern and TWA; or you can look up and be prepared to face the future.

And by the way "world's largest and most advanced aviation market". Ahahah, don't make me laugh. Largest market, I'll give you that considering the Asian market is not a single country. Most advanced? Absolutely not. From airports that resemble bus stations, to 30 year old DC-9's, and a slew of bankrupt airlines who can't affort to server stale pretzels much less PTV's, I'd hardly call it most advanced  Nuts
 
N79969
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:46 am

Interestingly the largest airlines hubbed at the most slot restricted airports have not ordered A380.

BA is no longer a pure-Boeing customer yet they have held off on going for the A380. In fact, they converted a batch of 744 orders to 777s.

ANA and JAL have also held off on purchasing A380 despite having to fly out of an even more congested Narita. They are increasing their 777 flights as opposed to 747 flying.

A lot of people seem to have bought into the hype surrounding China. It is big and growing and will be an economic superpower in the foreseeable future. There is no question about it emergence.

However in the big scheme of things it's air travel market is not large. I recall reading that the country's entire fleet of airliners as recently 2001 or 2002 was less than that of American Airlines alone. Despite the sneering condescenion of certain indviduals, flights between El Paso and Dallas on an RJ are not necessarily lesser than flights between Hangzhou and Shangai on a large Boeing or Airbus. China's domestic airline market is far from rationlized with all kinds of price and capacity controls imposed by the government.

For a variety of reasons, the United States is the most mature aviation market in the world. The LCC model that European and Asian entrepeneurs are emulating was primarily developed in the United States.

Good for Airbus for making a sale. Good for China for its upcoming Olympic show for the world. But I would not take a sale to China as a much of vindication of the economic argument behind the A380. The A380s best endorsement is from companies such as Singapore, Qantas, Lufthansa, and Air France.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:53 am

"world's largest and most advanced aviation market" - well the current most advanced aircraft offerings from both airbus and boeing are the a345, a346, a380, b773er, b772lr, and b787. and my understanding is that only 2 of the u.s. carriers are odering these aeroplanes (fedex ordered the a380 and primaris ordered b787). the majority of the orders came from asia and europe, therefore in my humble opinion it does not make the u.s. to be the most advance in commercial aviation... maybe at one time in the past but not today.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
N79969
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:04 am

Having the newest airplanes does not make a market the most "advanced." U.S. firms have been at the leading edge of market innovations such as LCCs, comprehensive alliances, ticketless travel, and the introduction of RJs.

Emirates has a lot of new airplanes but I would hardly call the United Arab Emirates the most advanced aviation market.

Perhaps the better description for the US market is the most highly evolved although the process has been slowing down as zombie airlines have been kept alive by chapter 11.
 
gigneil
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:04 am

Interestingly the largest airlines hubbed at the most slot restricted airports have not ordered A380.

The largest airlines hubbed at the most slot restricted airports own a lion's share of the slots thereof.

The value is to airlines that are not hubbed there, and therefore only have access to a select handful of slots.

N
 
JoFMO
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:21 am

With all respect to China's growth rates, but I don't see routes where a Chinese carrier desperately needs an A380. I see it more as an strategical investment. China as the largest country has to fly the largest and most advanced and best aircraft.
There are a lot of other carrier which could use the A380 for their routes before it comes to China. Even India could have a better use of them for their LHR and North America flights, but like I said, in case of China I see it as a matter of prestige.

The discussion frequency vs capacity is once again bs. The A380's capacity beats frequency when constrained airports and timeframes becomes a factor. In other cases frequency wins.
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:31 am

"...you mean the world's largest and most advanced (for better or worse) aviation market?"
that's why no US major could survive without the money they got from the government? Big grin

look at the orders and I think those managers do understand how aviation business goes
 
flybyguy
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:33 am

Well indeed our nation is the largest aviation market in the world, however I must agree that ours is not the most advanced. And we probably will never be most advanced because we are such a large nation.

"Meccas of money" like Singapore are so ludicrously rich for their size they can afford to overhaul any industry and make them more "high tech" in short order. The US does not have that luxury, in fact by the time a new technology is fully adopted it's very very old technology.

But you've got to hand it to the US, not many countries can afford to do what we do on our scales ... even if the time of adaptation is very sluggish.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:37 am

"But you've got to hand it to the US, not many countries can afford to do what we do on our scales ... even if the time of adaptation is very sluggish"........in the military industry yes(!) but that is a bad thing not a good one!
 
M27
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:39 am

Adria:

Do you have something against government help for companies?
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:54 am

"Do you have something against government help for companies?"........ isn't it the average US citizen that always keeps bashing the EU because they supposedly "support" Airbus?
 
M27
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:01 am

Adria:

Thats a nice way to get around not answering the question!
 
Russophile
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:11 am

and the introduction of RJs

That would be a matter of some contention, particularly as Aeroflot is considered to have introduced RJs into regular basis on a wide basis, with the Yak-40 approx 30 years before the RJ phenomenon came to the US, and then with the Tu-134 some years after the Yak-40.
 
M27
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 am

I might have missed it, but is noted that these 5 A380's may be ILFC positions and may or may not result in new orders for Airbus?
 
avek00
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:47 am

"Yes, and I firmly believe that the A380 will be wearing NW colors by the end of this decade."

Based on what? If anything, NW might pick up a few used 744s, but has zero need for anything larger - the company's desire to expand further into intra-Asian markets requires SMALLER equipment (A330/B757), not more 400+ seat jumbos.
Live life to the fullest.
 
avek00
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:03 am

"1.2 billion people, and an ever increasing/expanding 'middle-class with disposable income', and additionally an expanding business environment."

Not only are ConcordeBoy's points correct, but you also neglect to mention the high barriers to entry and over-regulation in the Chinese aviation market, which, as is the case with India, will continue to stifle the hell out of the country's aviation market indefinitely. At best, China and India might have aviation markets that rival Western Europe's, but that's decades away. And even then, they wouldn't come close to rivaling the US market.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 am

"I might have missed it, but is noted that these 5 A380's may be ILFC positions and may or may not result in new orders for Airbus?"..

okay maybe you didn't get my point. It's not fair competition!. Everytime Airbus develops a new aircraft 50% of the average US population are bashing and talking s*** about how airbus gets money from the governments and so on. But you are doing the exact same thing by supporting the airlines in the same way like you don't want Airbus to be supported(and there is no evidence for that support!). Maybe you should read some non US newspapers to get a object view how thing really are.
 
M27
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:06 am

Adria:

Do you not want Airbus to be able to deliver the aircraft to say United, US Air etc.? I am not saying I like the idea of government help to US airlines, but I can see a need for it at certain times.
"okay maybe you didn't get my point. It's not fair competition!."
Believe me, I understand your point quite well and therefore am glad you admit Airbus has an unfair advantage!

As for reading foreign newspapers, why would I want to get a one sided, Anti-American, biased bunch of bull? I get enough of that from Reuters news service and plenty of American media as well.
 
Rj111
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:39 am

The thing i find funny is that most of these frequency obsessed US airlines are going bankrupt.

ANA and JAL have also held off on purchasing A380 despite having to fly out of an even more congested Narita. They are increasing their 777 flights as opposed to 747 flying

IMO, if the 747adv doesnt turn up NH and JL will order the A380. I'd bet the farm on it.
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:33 am

I cant believe that there is people out there still wondering why no American airline has ordered the A380.
UA fighting to survive would have been an indication i thought.
Unfortunately there is no place for the A380 in the states at the moment .
On a wing and a prayer
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:33 am

"Believe me, I understand your point quite well and therefore am glad you admit Airbus has an unfair advantage!"...Where did I admit something? Don't twist the words! And by the way you are making the same thing as I described it in my post before Smile


"As for reading foreign newspapers, why would I want to get a one sided, Anti-American, biased bunch of bull?"..As I said you would be more objective, but that's your decision to make.

 
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airportugal310
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:43 am

Adria:

Thats a nice way to get around not answering the question!


Sounds like he answered the question to me. Though I doubt the "average" American really cares.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
M27
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:58 am

Airportugal310:

"Sounds like he answered the question to me."

Yeah, he answered it! Its ok for Airbus to get government help but not any for US airlines. I guess you are not an " average" american. Tell me your point of view.
 
Rj111
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:07 am

Anyway, just to guide this topic back on track. We're waiting for Etihad and Thai to confirm, and we now have two undisclosed ones correct? this one for 5 and another one for how many?
 
ozglobal
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:38 am

Qantasclub- "The fact that US carriers can't afford the A380 is irrelevant to this post."

Well said!! You're on my respected users list for your eloquent debunking of the irrelevent, insecure defensiveness found on this thread.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Adria
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RE: Another Asian Carrier Signs For 5 A380.

Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:06 am

"Yeah, he answered it! Its ok for Airbus to get government help but not any for US airlines".......where did I say that? I only said that you are always talking about government help for Airbus for which you don't have a slight evidence but then on the other hand you find it ok for your government to support the US majors which we all know it happens. Why are you twisting the words around ?