aa777jr
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TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:28 am

I am aware that when TW was bought out they had a very exclusive international route system. What, if any, domestic routes was TW flying when they were bought out? How many international flights did they have compared to domestic?

Do you think UA could survive if the focused more on international service (like TW did) and let LCC handle domestic routes?

AA777jr
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quickmover
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:44 am

Domestic consisted of almost every major city in the United states to STL. They flew JFK-LAX, SFO, MCO, MIA, SJU and SJU-BOS, LAX, FLL.

Probably a few more but that's off the top of my head.
 
TW741
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:46 am

What, if any, domestic routes was TW flying when they were bought out

hmmm - TW had an extensive domestic network - finally (before getting TWA LLC as part of AA) operating out of the main hub STL and, to a lesser extent - JFK/LGA. Listing all cities served would be a long posting. Let's put it this way: TW was serving almost any state of the USA including Hawaii. Only in the northwest TW was more or less just serving PDX and SEA plus a few cities like Boisie or Kalispell.
At a certain time TW was also trying to build up minihubs namely ATL and ORD - I think that was still the "Icahn period".

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TWFirst
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:49 am

>.Do you think UA could survive if the focused more on international service (like TW did) and let LCC handle domestic routes?<<

Actually, in the end, TW was retreating from transatlantic international service. It ended service from JFK to MXP, FCO, MAD, BCN, ATH and other markets during the last few years of existence. It then started focusing on Caribbean markets.

TW had a huge domestic operation (400+ daily departures) out of STL, its primary hub. It pretty much ended all domestic service out of JFK, save transcons, during the same period it stopped transat's out of there (jetBlue's arrival hastened the end to many JFK domestic routes too, especially Florida).

From STL, TW or it's Express partners flew to (not complete list):
ORD
MCI
DFW
LAS
ONT
SNA
SFO
SEA
PDX
MSY
SDF
LIT
MEM
FLL
MIA
PBI (ended before takeover)
ATL
BNA
IND
GRR
DIA
MSN
DEC
SPI
BMI
CMI
Marion, IL
Kirksville, MO
Columbia, MO
SPF
LGA
EWR
JFK
BOS
BDL
WAS
IAD
BWI
DTW
CLE
CVG
CMH
RIC
Norfolk, VA
PIT
PHL
TPA
MCO
SJU
HNL
OGG
MSP
RST
MLI
UIN
DSM
LNK
OMA
CLT
RDU
JAX
TUL
OKC

Plus more...

[Edited 2004-12-01 20:23:54]
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TWFirst
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:50 am

>>Only in the northwest TW was more or less just serving PDX and SEA plus a few cities like Boisie or Kalispell<<


TW stopped serving Boise several years before its end, and I'm not sure it ever served Kalispell.
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planespotting
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:16 am

TWA was, in essence, the last mainline Major carrier to serve Moline Illinois (MLI). When i was in jr high on any trip to moline i would beg my parents to stop by the airport (pre september 11, you could get to the gates) to watch those lovely TWA DC-9 30's and 50's go from Moline to St Louis. I talked to an ex MD-80 F/O at TWA who works here at southwest now and he said that they carried some amazing load factors to and from there, the airplanes, on average he said were over 80% full during peak times. Not bad for little Moline, who the best we can do now is get 3 (i think 3) AirTran 717's per day to and from atlanta.
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legendDC9
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:45 am

for the last few years of service it was actually a through service from STL to PDX and SEA as well as a SEA STL non stop.
 
DIA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:54 am


From Denver (Stapleton and DIA), TWA served mainly STL, SLC, and JFK (one daily 727 for JFK in the 1980s). In the waning years, they widdled that down to just STL. . .but they served STL with MD80s, 757s and L1011s (Serving STL & SLC). Stapleton also got the 707s up until their retirement.
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quickmover
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:01 am

Didn't some of the DEN flights, in the early 90s make a 1 stop at COS?
 
dutchjet
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:03 am

Like most airlines, TWA's route system changed over the years and was greatly reorganized when TWA, like other US carriers, converted from point to point flying to focusing on hubs. Prior to deregulation, TWA was primarily an east coast to west coast airline with lots of transcon flights - TWA maintained large stations in most northeast cities and had a large station in Chicago; TW was also a big player in Pittsburgh, Indy, Ohio cities, Kanasas City and Alberquerque. TW competed head to head with UA and AA on many routes, including the important LGA-ORD, ORD-LAX and other such routes. It was a very interesting point to point route system. The domestic system fed international flights that departed from ORD, LAX, JFK, BOS, IAD,etc. After the TW/Ozark deal, the route system became far more focused on the St Louis hub, lots of smaller stations were added, and TW slowly dropped service at ORD as it was difficult competing against AA and UA as those airlines were rapdily expanding at ORD.

TW's main hubs were developed at STL and JFK, with STL being all about domestic connections and JFK being the key international gateway - as mentioned, TW served all major destinations nation wide out of STL. TW also tried focus cities at ATL (a major flop), got involved in the competitive NYC-Florida market (they did OK, not great, on those routes) and then tried service to the Caribbean which was rather successful and San Juan became a focus city for TW. While all of this was going on, TW was shrinking its international services.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:04 am

What was TWA routes out of RDU?
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quickmover
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:09 am

"What was TWA routes out of RDU?"

STL 4x
 
DIA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:09 am

Quickmover: You are absolutley correct. TWA mainly flew MD80s from DEN to COS RT. Good catch.
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DIA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:15 am

Seems that the routes I stated were well into effect in the 1990s.

Aa777jr: You might find this link useful. It has TWA's route maps over the years of it's life. http://www.airchive.com/SITE%20PAGES/TIMETABLES-TWA.html
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stlgph
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:26 am

For the most part, TWA operated six or seven major departure banks to most of the cities. There was near hourly service to Chicago, about eight or nine flights a day STL-LGA, domestic wide body service St. Louis to Honolulu and Los Angeles. Towards late 1999, MD80's, DC9's and later 717's were used on a majority of the routes, but 757's I know were flown some to BWI, DCA, IND, MCI, SFO, LAX, and most Florida destinations.

Outside of TWFirst's post, some other mainline destinations included Cedar Rapids, Colorado Springs, Austin, Houston Intercontinental, San Antonio, etc.
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sprxUSA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:26 am

As an avid airline buff who has lived in Boise all my life, I know that TWA has never had scheduled service to here,ever. The closest city TW operated near here was SLC.
The only time I saw a TWA plane here was a John-Deere sponsored charter to Iowa or Illinois.

I like how TW flew into some odd places once a day (Harrisburg, McAllen, etc.) Not very effective use of a/c.

It always amused me when they flew into Pueblo,CO in late '80s, I believe.
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TWFirst
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:30 am

>>I know that TWA has never had scheduled service to here,ever.<<

I thought they did. Maybe I'm thinking of Ozark.

[Edited 2004-12-01 21:34:46]
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PanAm747
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:32 am

TWA developed a hub-and-spoke system in the 1980's, with hubs and STL for most domestic flights, and JFK for international routes. The JFK hub was very unique - it was truly the definition of an "add-on" system, and only had one flight a day (to/from most cities) timed to connect with international departing flights. Most incoming flights came from two cities, such as IND-CMH-JFK, SLC-DEN-JFK, IAH-MSY-JFK, and LAS-PHX-JFK. There are others, but these are the ones I remember.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe at one time there was a non-stop SAN-JFK on TWA. At one point it changed to a one-stop-but-same-flight-number via STL, and then it was gone altogether.

In answer to your question, UA's international service is their money maker. The TED model seems to be working on certain routes. I think a shift towards the TED flights in certain markets is good business sense, but not system-wide.
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sprxUSA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:40 am

That is BS. You show me a sched and I'll believe you. From the BOI airport's inception in 1926, starting with Varney then into United, then followed by Zimmerly-Empire-WestCoast-AirWest-Hughes, operated into BOI up to 1979, when Frontier started. Then the plethora of dereg carriers into here, which TW was not.

The closest TW ever had to a sched service here is when Ozark had applied to the CAB to start the DEN-BOI route that FL (Original Frontier)eventually began.
Now, if you consider Transwestern Airlines as a TWA, then yes, TWA served BOI on a scheduled basis.
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DIA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:54 am

Sidenote to reply #18:

CO also served Boise from Denver until the CO Flt.1713 crash, then CO dropped the route.

Edit: I just noticed this was said, so be what may: 'Then the plethora of dereg carriers into here, which TW was not.

[Edited 2004-12-01 21:56:41]
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moman
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:09 am

AA has pretty much dismantled TWA's route network.

AA no longer flies STL to MCI, PDX, and 25 other destinations I can't remember.

TWA used to fly 6x dailies MD80 from STL-TPA, shortly after the merger it was 5x MD80, in 2002 it was 2x 757, 2x MD80, in 2003 it was 3x MD80, after the major cut in STL it was 2x MD80 (changed quickly to 1x 757 and 1x MD80), in 2004 after April it was 1x 757, and now it is back to 1x 757 and 1x MD80. STL-MCO has also been through similar cuts/additions/cuts again.

Too bad for AA. Does anyone know the load factors on the STL-TPA flights? I'm curious.

Moman

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MHTMDW
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:19 am

Somewhere in my collection of stuff, I have a pamphlet from about 1971 which introduced "TWA's Ambassador Coach Lounge" on the 747 and also explained new services in coach on all long haul domestic flights. Also had a mini route map which showed all of these flights on 747 707 and 880 a/c. Amazing amounts of point to point sevice.
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:29 am

Even in 1982, there were junkloads of point-to-point routes. I'll have to look through my three trunks full of TWA stuff ( the models are n a display case for all to see, if y'all are ever out here in Utah). I should make a display for these items too, I have all the timetables from 1939 to the very last one (thank eBay!) Among several thousand paper items and miscellaneous...even TWFirst seats from an L-1011! And some china from the 50's up to the 2000 set. I will always miss TWA.
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aa777jr
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:55 am

STL isn't a huge airport, so I was just wondering about their structure with domestic and international.

Thanks for all info!

AA777jr
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MHTMDW
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:41 am

Western: I miss TWA as well! I flew with them from ORD to BOS and back on a 707 in Feb of 1983, shortly before they pulled back at ORD. My father used to fly TWA a bunch in the mid 80s... my parents flew TWA to Europe the day of the Athens hijacking in 1985. ANd then to Europe during the first Gulf War, with about 6 other passengers on the plane.
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:27 am

MHTMDW,

My parents flew to ATH on the day of the hijacking, and then returned three weeks later. They were also on a Riyadh flight a few days before the first Gulf War broke out, while I was on a TW 727-100 (yes, a -100), from STL to CMH to be babysat by my uncle and aunt, who worked at the TW counter there. Three weeks of goin' with my uncle and aunt to work, and havin' a blast! That -100 mustve been one of the very last ones in the fleet, as on the way back I was on a DC-9-30 to STL, then a L-1011 to JFK (YAY!), then back with parents on the JFK-DEN-SLC on the MD-80. First time I ever stayed in the Ramada Plaza JFK.
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DIA
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:34 pm

"STL isn't a huge airport, so I was just wondering about their structure with domestic and international."

STL might not be huge, but TWA certainly had plenty of gates on two concourses no less. More than once I went throught on TWA, and everytime I waited like I did at busier airports. 30 minute hold times to take off. I remember waiting in some 727s and MD80s with my head pressed up against the window watching all these DC-9-10s and -30s and -50s and even -40s just nonstop landing and taking off all around us. . .it was a moment in time, or several for that matter, that I won't forget. TWA did Douglas proud and they certainly did STL proud as well.


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WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:45 pm

I also agree with you DIA, STL loved us. We brought in most of the St. Louis tourism. WN brought in maybe 19% and we had a whopping 73%. I'm glad I was a part of it and will never forget it.
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afitch7881
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:22 am

TWA also flew in the 90's early 2002's from BDL-JFK on express, and BDL-PWM (Portland, Maine) on a daily MD80.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:20 pm

I remember when TW flew into PBI with L1011s and 767s to JFK. I also have a nice shot in the evening of a 757 at FLL on its way to STL on one of the last days they operated at my website.

I miss 'ole TWA.
 
docchaos
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:54 pm

My first time flying was on a TWA 717 MLI - STL - PIT on Aug. 1st, 2001 (and the return on Aug. 3rd, 2001). Now that I am involved in the industry, I feel lucky that I was able to fly on a former giant of an airline. I still have the American Way magazines (that had "Welcoming TWA Passengers" on the top of it) that were on the flights.

I now work for OH in MLI. Before I was hired here, those TWA flights were the only ones I had ever taken. The cabin and flight crews were great. The CS crew was quite nice (and some of them are my current co-workers... TWE/Trans States orphans).

Just my little bit.
Doc
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:51 am

Mmm..keep bringin back more memories! I'm actually enjoying the forums for once...
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Thrust
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:56 pm

I agree. These memories are great. Unfortunately STL's major status has been severely downgraded...no longer do we ever see long lines of traffic jams on the runways and in the terminal. Concourses D and C are now completely vacant...so in the shot of the TWA terminal from the Control Tower in DIA's post, in the rightmost part of the photo, almost all of those gates are completely vacant. It is a desert.
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WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:56 pm

I say TWA should be re-started. That would be awesome
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moman
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:14 am

Thrust:

You are wrong about STL today. Concourse C is where American hosts most of their departures (C1-C24), the end of C terminal is vacant and D is now used by Frontier (D1-D2 I believe).

At any rate, it's certainly not what it once was.

AA also uses B for the smaller prop planes.

Moman
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N328KF
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:18 am

I, for one, am glad to not deal with going through St. Louis constantly. I worked for a company that loved to use TWA, and every time I went to someplace in the Plains, (TUL, MCI, ICT), I had to go through St. Louis. And they shut down runways there every time someone breathed the word "snow." I can't count the amount of times I was stuck there.
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FinnWings
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:25 am

I would be very pleased if someone could tell me what type of aircraft TWA used in 1990 on routes JFK-TPA and JFK-MCO?
Thank you very much!

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
moman
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:26 am

N328KF;

Try going through Chicago anytime in the winter (and damn near year round) and you will be praying for the opportunity to go back through STL.

Moman
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N328KF
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:27 am

Moman:

Look at my profile.  Big grin And I fly a lot.
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7e72004
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:42 am

This reminds me...back in 1986, more specifically on Dec. 19, 1986 i remember flying on an L1011 from PHL to STL, does anyone know if that was part of an international flight or what? I also flew on an L1011 on my return trip (STL-PHL).
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planespotting
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:51 am

I forgot something. When i was getting my private pilots license in the summer of 2001, i was taxiing at MLI in my lil cherokee and i was holding short of 9/27 so a TWA DC-9-30 could taxi past, and the F/O waved at me!!!! I waved back, and i thought that was the sweetest thing ever. That was the first time any pilot on an airline had waved at me flying, it's happened subsequent times since then but that awesome F/O was the first one. I hope he ditched American and is flying for a good company again...
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kkfla737
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:04 pm

TWA had an extrodinary number of destinations served from ORD right after deregulation. They eventually got chased off all of the routes except JFK and STL.
 
Oceanic
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:09 pm

You could add Sarasota (SRQ) to the list, however they did happen to stop service just before the takeover was completed. They flew there from STL with the MD-80
 
LambertMan
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:10 pm

Wow Thrust, C and D? That would leave American with what? Zero Gates?

hahah jk

Moman,

The end of C isn't vacant, if you drive by the airport at night and in the morning ther are planes docked at C-35,34,36. Two of them turn around to BWI and BOS, the other one I don't really know. It is vacant during the day though, so it would be easy to assume that....

 
ramerinianair
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:50 pm

FinnWings,
TW was famous for their MD-80 and DC-9s. They had som many of them. They usually sent the 80s to Florida from NY. Although it wasn't unheard of to see a 757 on a florida route during the peak times of the year.
SR
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WesternA318
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:00 pm

On June 6, 1989, (my 7th b-day), I flew on TWA from SLC-DEN-STL-JFK-MIA on an MD-80 all the way to STL, then a 747to JFK, and finally a L-1011 to MIA. My mom even had the ENTIRE trip on camcorder *digs through OLD VHS tapes*
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uadc8contrail
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:57 pm

when WN started the STL-MDW route back in the late 80s,early 90s TWA matched the fare but it was to ORD. 2 of my coworkers and i bought tickets on TWA that had a routing STL-MCI-ORD on a L1011 for the same price. the A/C went onto LHR pre AA route buyout.


DIA,SprxUSA
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uadc8contrail
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:58 pm

SORRY.....the capt kept the gear down....................
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
Thrust
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:43 pm

whoops, excuse me, I meant just Concourse D. Didn't AA switch over to Concourse C when they ditched Concourse D or something? Or did they just pack more of the flights into Concourse C? I know something of this nature went on around the time of the cuts. BTW, Uadc8contrail, u are absolutely right about TWA's STL-ORD flight going onto LHR. My father flew that route back in the 1980s, and it was a TWA Boeing 747, not an L-1011 (I thought the Boeing 747 did ORD-LHR, not the L-1011?) Logically, being the 1980s, there was only one other place for it to go from there...LHR. And apparently that is where he said it was going. My only question was, is the 747 too big for such a short hop of that nature, STL-ORD?
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moman
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RE: TWA Domestic Routes?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:43 pm

Thanks for the info LambertMan, I'm glad to hear they still use the gates on the end of C at least once a day.

Thrust, AA did have flights in D until spring 2004 and then moved everything back to C. They didn't touch B.

Concourse D is in bad shape, the carpet it old and worn. I walked down through it a couple months ago and there were just a couple kids running around, certainly not the activity of a year earlier when there were ~26 gates being used for arrivals and departures.

As far as a 747 on STL-ORD, I know there are lots of pax on that route. TWA used to have about 10-12 daily non stops and WN had 10 or so as well. I would guess TWA could at least fill half of a big bird for that route, depending on the time of day. It was probably more of a repositioning flight.

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