aa777jr
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Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:00 am

I did a search and I know the UA topic has been slightly beat to death in past months, but if they severally scaled back domestic operations and focused on Atlantic and Pacific rim routes, could they survive or eventually recover fully their financial problems?

I could really care less about their bankruptcy, look at Amtrak, they've been bleeding for years and are still around with government funds.  Smile

AA777jr
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Lufthansa
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:01 am

probably not

The strength of their loyalty program comes from domestic business...and it is that loyalty program which drives it's most important and profitable international business.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:03 am

I was just thinking, worse case scenario...hope it doesn't come to that. I guess it isn't plausible then?  Confused
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STT757
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:05 am

United's core is the Mid-West Business Traveler, Chicago to NY to LA kind of folks.

International flying is relatively new to the airline, 20 years.
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:08 am

From everything I read regarding UA interntional structure they seem to be doing well. There are so many LCC competing for that Mid-West business traveller group now.
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N1120A
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:11 am

Well, let's see. Can a carrier survive as all, or almost all international without some sort of subsidy? Ask the real Pan Am.
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:14 am

N1120a,


I was gonna try and compare that "what if" with what happened to Pan Am.  Sad

Obviously, it would be necessary for UA to continue service out of ORD, DEN, SFO, etc, but if they scaled, way back and maybe even started more international routes...

AA777jr

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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:17 am

>I was gonna try and compare that "what if" with what happened to Pan Am.

Obviously, it would be necessary for UA to continue service out of ORD, DEN, SFO, etc, but if they scaled, way back and maybe even started more international routes...<

That is what they are doing, but UA has a great deal of FF members who like to fly from places other than hubs and to places other than hubs, so you will never see UA as an only international carrier. TED may take over more domestic flying, but that would be it
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moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:21 am

I think they could, as long as they had some strong domestic feeder routes from DEN, ORD, IAD, SFO places like that. Let Southwest fly the cheap asses from DEN to MCO to see Mickey mouse while UA flies the CEO to LHR for a meeting!

I hate to see UA throwing good money after bad, and that is all they do competing with WN and the like.....

Moman
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:28 am

Let Southwest fly the cheap asses from DEN to MCO to see Mickey mouse while UA flies the CEO to LHR for a meeting!

This was exactly what I had in mind. I think UA could do quite well operating the majority of their routes internationally.

AA777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:31 am

I don't see how . . . who is going to feed those international routes? US Airways? Not likely, they'll probably be gone - I hope not, but likely.

Their customer loyalty base in domestic from ORD, DEN, SFO, IAD and SEA. I can't see them suddenly turning into an "internationally focused" carrier.

I don't think UA could ever be a niche carrier - that niche being International Routes. Of course, a lot folks in a.net contend that if UA survives it will be a substantially different carrier - this might be the "substantially different" everyone has thought about . . .

Interesting thread.
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:36 am

>I think they could, as long as they had some strong domestic feeder routes from DEN, ORD, IAD, SFO places like that. Let Southwest fly the cheap asses from DEN to MCO to see Mickey mouse while UA flies the CEO to LHR for a meeting!<

I know a great deal of business flyers who fly WN, not because of prices, but because of quality of service and their simple, yet effective FF plan. Oh, and those cheap asses who fly WN make WN profitable, while ignoring them for the all mighty yield is what kills UA, DL, etc. Notice WN does not mention yield? That is because they worry more about treating people right?

>I hate to see UA throwing good money after bad, and that is all they do competing with WN and the like..... <

Funny, they could compete if they stopped wasting money on golden parachutes for people like Steven Wolf (he was there before US) and stopped pissing off their employees.
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:39 am

Their customer loyalty base in domestic from ORD, DEN, SFO, IAD and SEA. I can't see them suddenly turning into an "internationally focused" carrier.

It wouldn't happen overnight, but if they focused more on international growth and alot less on domestic hauls, I think they could stop the bleeding.
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moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:41 am

N1120a,

Good points, but I still believe CASH is KING to the average American consumer. People might say they will pay $100 extra to fly a carrier where service is good, but when it comes down to it, they won't. That's precisely why AA is ditching MRTC. The people that pay $180 DEN-MCO on WN probably wouldn't pay $250 to fly UA anyway.

The same can't be said when the CEO is flying internationally on the company dime. "Yeah I'll take the $1500 first class seat and the extra bottle of wine".

Moman
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baw716
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:48 am

OK, since I have been commenting on UA all day today, might as well take one more on.

I made a post some time ago about a strategic plan I would put in place were I CEO at United (basically, I was reacting to a great deal of bitching and not much positive energy in helping them fix the problem).

One of the points of that plan was a reduction of the aircraft types in the fleet. The second one was product, both domestic and international. I proposed that the airline be split into two divisions: UA International and UA Domestic. UA international would be the higher quality product, driven at the business traveler with improved comfort and service to attract the leisure customer flying Economy. The Domestic product would be a variation on TED, but adding a European Style Business Class, operated with Airbuses. The Domestic product would have food and inflight programming for purchase (or free based on competitive factors). The key to the domestic product is low fares, a la JetBlue.

In addition, to the UA Domestic product, the UA International product would operate some domestic routes connecting the hubs and driving connecting passengers through to the long haul international flights. Pricing for the international flights would be somewhat higher than the market; however, a certain number of Economy seats would be set aside for low fares for competitive reasons. These flights would be operated by the 777 and 767, with the PS 757 used on the key transcons plus some possible route expansion from the east coast. At a minimum, PS would certainly provide that "cut above" that the heavy duty frequent flyers want.

There are a number of other proposals, but this is principally the idea.
The key factor is creating an onboard product that Americans will fly without hesitation and a product that foreigners would be willing to try out.

Food for thought
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:53 am

>Good points, but I still believe CASH is KING to the average American consumer. People might say they will pay $100 extra to fly a carrier where service is good, but when it comes down to it, they won't. That's precisely why AA is ditching MRTC. The people that pay $180 DEN-MCO on WN probably wouldn't pay $250 to fly UA anyway.<

You can't fly DEN-MCO on WN. You can't fly DEN-Anywhere on WN.
There are very few people who care so much about price that $180 vs. $250 would compromise loyalty. Members of Mileage Plus would fly UA every time. There are a lot of people, including me, who pay a bit extra to fly to smaller stations like OXR and get extra miles at the same time, so UA becomes the main choice. Perhaps a few who really had to would pay that difference, but most people I know go based on service, not that kind of price difference. WN's service, is, in many ways better than UA (though I love talking to UA F/As about anything). Also, the difference is often $180 to $450, which does make a big difference.

>The same can't be said when the CEO is flying internationally on the company dime. "Yeah I'll take the $1500 first class seat and the extra bottle of wine".<

When was the last long haul transatlantic C class seat that cost $1500, let along F?
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avek00
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:54 am

Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

No major US airline could survive as an international-only operation for any length of time. Lack of feed issues aside, an international-only US carrier would find itself saddled with unbearably high costs.
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moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:11 am

N1120a,

Obviously I am not aware of prices. My point is that when it's my dime, I'm more price conscious than if it is the company's dime. I tried to get my company to pay $100 more to let me fly AA but they wouldn't go for it and I flew UA last time I took a biz trip. (UA is our official biz airline).

I agree that people like you and I will pay a little extra, and most people on here might since we are fans. I am AA Gold and I pay extra to fly them over WN. I am pretty sure you and I are in a minority among all travelers. No one else in my family would pay any premium to fly on any carrier. Actually, I don't know anyone else who would. My neighbor who works for AA buys tickets on B6 to fly home, they are so cheap and he says it's not worth the hassle to fly non-rev.

Moman
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scotron11
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:12 am

If TED were expanded to feed their hubs maybe it could work. Having a lower cost domestic operation feeding their international flights maybe the answer. By the by, how is TED doing? Thing is, BA started a LCC within their own airline but later sold it because BA did not think that was their area of expertise. Just curious if a combination on such a large scale would work for UA.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:31 am

UA needs to focus on international and not domestic. They know they can't win on the domestic market. They expanded and became the number one airline in the 90s and tried to go after every single person in the US. They tried to have the best route structure so that they could be the biggest and best. Well that strategy doesn't work now. Only transporting the high fare passengers is a a good idea but probably won't work either. So many people here on this forum say that carriers like UA, DL, AA, US, CO and NW should go after the high fare passengers and offer a premium service. There is a market for this, but 6 carriers cannot fill it. There are only so many high fare passengers; the premium product would be saturated quickly if all of the legacy majors went for it.

If a carrier was to focus on premium travel only, they would not succeed by flying into every destination imaginable with tons of frequencies, because there just aren't enough high paying passengers to fill the planes. You need to supplement the system with a diverse set of passengers to succeed and be one of the biggest. Although UA might not be going for that, they are filling that role. Leisure travelers help fill the planes, so that UA can offer frequencies and service that the business passengers want. If the high fare passengers get what they want in the form of frequencies and good service domestically, then they will have loyalty internationally too. There are very few business travelers that fly internationally more often then domestically in the US. The two parts need to blend together.

UA is focused on providing what high fare passengers want. They have the benefit of probably the most diverse international structure of any US carrier. This is a strong plus for them. However they bleed money domestically. Using TED and by shrinking plane sizes, they are becoming more competitive on the domestic market. TED is offering leisure passengers options. These are necessary because believe it or not, business travelers take vacations too, and want that kind of service to be available too.

They can't just end all domestic flights, because they would lose the necessary loyalty, but they can't transform themselves into a premium carrier either. Offering high seat pitch and meals on every flight is not necessary. Few succeed when doing that. Midwest was as close to that as possible, but have added saver service to supplement the premium service. UA needs frequency and convenience for passengers. Economy plus helps with the comfort level by giving the higher yielding passengers what they want, but still catering to the leisure travelers with what they want (low prices) so they can fill up the planes.

UA needs blend itself into a strong airline. They don't have to dominate every market they are in. There is no reason for them to go after the Midwest-Florida market with tons of capacity, because LCCs have that covered. They just have to have enough service so that they do not upset their loyal flyers. Domination does not mean profitability, but a strong overall product that caters to the market you are going after is what allows for financial strength. By using smaller jets with high frequencies (E170, CRJs, 737s, A319s), giving high fare passengers the benefit of economy plus, having a strong international and domestic route structure, and using TED to keep costs manageable where the number of leisure travelers is higher then typical, UA will be able to reposition itself as a strong contender.
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moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:34 am

Okay I am curious now, can someone explain to me how Ted is low cost? Don't they use the same employees, planes, and crew from the mainline (I know they are painted Ted, but aren't the lease rates the same?) This is something I have never understood.

Thanks,
Moman
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PVG
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:41 am

Why does UA need to have its own LCC? Why can't they just use the existing LCC's to supplement? I.E., why can't they make a deal with JETBLUE at JFK to feed their international flights and vice versa? I assume that it has to do with union resistance, but it makes sense. There is no point to continue adding capacity (even if you call it TED) when almost no one is making money outside of the few LCCs, and even they are starting to cry.

Maybe I just don't know enough about the economics of the airline industry, but when the market is already oversupplied and few are earning a decent return, seems to me that it's time for consolidation/cooperation/mergers. Why should the airline business be any different than any other business?
 
moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:42 am

I brought up the same point as PVG in another post, why doesn't UA make a deal with another LCC (I said America West/Air Tran) to feed it's international flights.

Moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:53 am

Moman:

It would require a massive change in thinking. To use the simple example of Frontier at DEN:

If UAL had bought a (49%?) stake in Frontier in its early days, they would have achieved two things:

(i) they would have had fair amount of the DEN/LCC market covered, and:

(ii) they could have kept Frontier's "separate" identity, but they would have been able to exercise some direction over Frontier's growth.

But, in those days, LCC's were either upstarts or the enemy, or both. It was frequently stated (not officially) that UAL would "crush Frontier like a gnat."

But that didn't happen. And now it may be too late. But it would have solved (would solve?) a bunch of problems.

cheers

mariner



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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:58 am

>I brought up the same point as PVG in another post, why doesn't UA make a deal with another LCC (I said America West/Air Tran) to feed it's international flights.<

HP already has an agreement with VS, and they have started to move away from deals with other big carriers, like the demise of the CO deal. FL interlines, unlike WN, but they have not made deals with other carriers for codeshare, etc. and probably will not. B6 follows WN pretty much exactly, staying away from interline to save costs.

>Okay I am curious now, can someone explain to me how Ted is low cost? Don't they use the same employees, planes, and crew from the mainline (I know they are painted Ted, but aren't the lease rates the same?) This is something I have never understood.<

Well, UA pays their employees the same or less at this point than WN does, so that is not an excuse. Apparently, US and UA have a lower CASM than WN or B6 currently. UA needs to get away from other types of costs, such as management waste, bloated subcontractor charges, chosing engines based on actual cost rather that taking far less capable ones because of percieved loyalty, etc.
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PVG
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm

mariner,

The current situation is vastly different than in the past. The time has come to start thinking differently and for the market to really be liberalized. To me it seems that the government de-regulated the airline industry almost 25 years ago, but it never really let go! What this business needs now is for the market to decide who survives and who doesn't. Do away with anti-trust issues for a period of time and let the market decide. If prices go too high, consumers will stop or reduce their flying and the airlines will have to cut their fares, or cut capacity, or be subject to new competition. Now the situation is reversed, there are too many low fares and seats, and no one is making money. Sanity and good business sense and practices need to be introduced to the airline business.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:32 pm

Funny, they could compete if they stopped wasting money on golden parachutes for people like Steven Wolf

Someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe part of the Ch. 11 restructuring was eliminating the "golden parachute" benefits that are granted to former executives. They were valued around 16mm, but I believe UA was able to eliminate those.

Back to the question: No, I don't believe so. UA relies on a lot of passengers from secondary markets to travel to a hub before continuing internationally. Without a domestic network to feed those int'l. routes, I just don't see it.
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baw716
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:41 pm

Scotron,
This is exactly the point I have been making. If TED (or UA Domestic as I prefer to call it) feeds the hubs from the domestic markets and UA International only operating between the hubs (to feed pax back and forth between the west/middle/east coast and the premium domestic markets), this is how I envision this working.

People will not pay a premium to fly domestically on a premium service carrier in most cases on leisure travel and for business travel if the dime is coming out of their pocket. This changes radically internationally, especially since the flight lengths, especially to Asia are well over 10 hours from most everywhere.

This is the fundamental shift I have been getting to: United must be able to draw positive yields from markets other than just the business market. Having a domestic product that is low cost and high quality (yes, you pay for meals), the value of this will be more recognized and people do understand the concept of value for a buck. With the fundamental brand being the same, it will be easier to tie the two carriers together, especially on international journeys between interior USA points and overseas markets.

As to how TED is doing? I've heard they have good loads, but don't know about unit revenue/cost/profitability.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
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mariner
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:43 pm

N1120a:

You might want to check those US/UA CASM figures again. They are very far from correct.

PVG:

I agree. But you and Moman asked why, and I tried to explain. In the specific case, of UAL and Frontier, the archives of this board are filled with posts from UAL advocates saying exactly what UAL was going to do to Frontier, and it wasnt pretty.

I have always taken the - often unpopular - view that UAL and Frontier are joined at the hip at DEN, and the should make the best of it, not the worst.

And yes, I agree - the market should sort it all out. The problem is that in a true "free market" there could be no such thing as Chapter 11.

And I'm not sure how many (here, at least) would agree with that.

cheers

mariner
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:22 pm

Why does UA not report (enough) on how TED is doing? They should sell TED and focus on UA totally.

Let HP, B6 or FL take them over and have them compete with WN for LCC king in the US market.

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JoFMO
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:30 pm

Its not that easy with an superior international product and a slightly higher price to still keep all your passengers on board.

Here in Germany the majority of Biúsiness travellers are dependent employees. Intercontinental flights are usually still made in business, but they simply don't have the power to decide which airline they wan't to use. The travel department have the last say which flight they book. So if there is a 100Euro difference between KLM and LH it is not that easy to say I wan't to stick with my beloved ... because I have ff status.
I don't think that this is very different in America. But at least in Germany it became quite normal for employees in the middle management that they have to choose the cheapest operator which offers an conviniently ties flight to their prefered destination. You simply can't say I want to fly LH from MUC to HAM when DBA is cheaper.
 
moman
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:32 pm

Let me say thanks to everyone for the info. It's nice to have an educated disucssion without someone barging in and calling us all a**holes for trying to figure this thing out.

N1120a,
I understand that USAir has CASM around 10-11 cents (before they went into BK 2nd time) and WN is around 7-8cents. I am not sure where United lies but I would doubt they are anywhere near 7 cents.

AA777jr,
United just can't sell Ted, I think it's part of the main company and they did not start a seperate company. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

Mariner,
You make an excellent point about UA and Frontier. I have heard many good things about Frontier and hope to get them a try sometime. Someone should swallow their pride and work together for the common good.

Moman
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:38 pm

Moman,

If it's possible, UA should dump TED and focus on their international expansion. It seems daily I receive United Milage Plus emails reminding me of new destinations I should take AAdvantage of.  Smile

I have my allegiances.

AA777jr
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boeingfever777
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:56 pm

UA needs to focus on international and not domestic. agreed!

Ok so what if UA was to put all the eggs in the Intl market basket. They have over 300+ short range a/c. How do they just dump all those a/c and focus on Intl. market only? A plan like this if even successful or tried would take yrs of planning. Are they even filling there current Intl. routes with passangers? Also if you did place alll that on flying Intl you would have to open a new market/routes to fly, correct??
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JoFMO
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:15 pm

No American carrier could survive without domestic feed; same here in Europe. But UA doesn't need to compete with the locos in every market. Keep the frequent flyers happy and offer some feed to your international flights is enough. You even don't need to make big profits domestically as long as the domestics help to mape your internationals profitable.
And I think it is a wise decision to concentrate expansion to international markets, where competition is not that fierce and you only have more 'friendly' competition from other lagacies.
 
An-225
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:20 pm

Moman,

If it's possible, UA should dump TED and focus on their international expansion. It seems daily I receive United Milage Plus emails reminding me of new destinations I should take AAdvantage of.

I have my allegiances.

AA777jr


Yeah, let's go ahead and just dump a bunch of perfectly good new airplanes. There's a great idea, why don't you go ahead and submit it to Glenn Tilton? If anything, United needs to gradually phase out its 737 fleet, and possibly replace it with A319/320 family.

Now, that will not magically lift us out of Chapter 11, but reducing the number of types is a good idea. As for international expansion, yes, United needs to do concentrate on international flying, but not forget about its domestic hubs.

Alex.
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aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:20 pm

JoFMO,

I stated that UA should definitely keep its market share in the following hub/focus cities: ORD, SFO, DEN, IAD and even LAX or JFK.

I try and fly only AA when I go abroad, but it's amazing and discouraging (at the same time) to see how much farther UA is ahead of AA in the international market. I can't think of a place I'd visit on holiday and couldn't find UA flying there.

Amazing they are so hurting for $$$.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:25 pm

I try and fly only AA when I go abroad, but it's amazing and discouraging (at the same time) to see how much farther UA is ahead of AA in the international market. I can't think of a place I'd visit on holiday and couldn't find UA flying there.

Caribbean? Latin America?
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boeingfever777
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:48 pm


Did he say he had gone there for holiday?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

We all know AA is #1 in Caribbean and South America.

Stop filling the blog with stupid callouts and find some other post to post your comments in! AA777jr, most likely knows that AA is #1 in those markets!

Also, instead of calling his hand try posting something that relates to the topic.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:52 pm

AA is ahead of UA in the international market? Try flying Pacific sometime.

It totally depends on where you're going.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
PVG
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:53 pm

Mariner,

yes, chap. 11 needs to go in order for the market to prosper. On the other hand, it's not the real reason that the airline business finds itself in this mess. UA couldn't stay there this long if its creditors starting making demands on them. Obviously, the creditors and banks that continue to lend UA money have made the calculation that they are better off waiting out the process than to challenge the current management and force the next move, whether it be a ch 7 liquidation or forcing labor to accept concessions and dealing with the consequences.

The creditors obviously think that UA can survive in some form and prosper with a proper business plan and cost structure. I can't say that I disagree.
 
JoFMO
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:01 pm

But without doubt everywhere south of the USA UA is very weak and they need to expand. They will never reach the coverage to there of AA in the foreseable future, but not serving SCL,BOG,CCS,LIM and the several middle American capitals is a big minus for their international ambitions.
But everywhere else they are quite good represented by themself or through codeshares.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:20 pm

This thread sounds like US a couple years ago and TWA a couple years before that. The company is losing money on essentially every passenger they fly but cannot agree on cutting service to eliminate any losses. In each circumstance, the company seemed to come to the conclusion that "bootstrapping" the entire existing operation was the best solution - better than any radical change.

Out of the three companies, we have 1 and 1/2 failures so far, if we agree to call US's second Chap 11 a half failure. It's fun to speculate on how UAL would do if they, for example, turned all US domestic over to regionals, and only flew internationally, but the fact of the matter is UAL and others never have the guts to try anything that radical unless liquidation in less than 30 days away - which is always too late.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:29 pm

Stop filling the blog with stupid callouts and find some other post to post your comments in! AA777jr, most likely knows that AA is #1 in those markets!

 Yeah sure Yeah, okay. Was I even talking about AA? No. I was talking about United Airlines.

I can't think of a place I'd visit on holiday and couldn't find UA flying there.


I pointed out that this was indeed a ridiculous statement. United has always been more business oriented than leisure oriented. It is why they have started Ted to compete with other airlines with a better way to compete with the low yield travelers. Its why theyre expanding into Mexico further, because central america and the caribbean have been a weak spot in their network. Unless AA777jr enjoys vacationing in the Fargo area, he is wrong.

I made a valid point. The only one posting something thats not related to the topic is you, BoeingFever777.
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boeingfever777
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:09 pm

I made a valid point. The only one posting something that's not related to the topic is you, BoeingFever777.

Read again! Last time I looked I posted reply #33. Might not know all about UA and there issues but I offered my opinion.

Also why don't you point out that you can't read. Post something that counts.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:29 pm

N382KF,

AA is ahead of UA in the international market? Try flying Pacific sometime.

I said originally,

I try and fly only AA when I go abroad, but it's amazing and discouraging (at the same time) to see how much farther UA is ahead of AA in the international market

I am fully aware, as stated, that UA is kicking the crap outta AA on the Pacific rim.

UA has my vote for Pacific service from the states.

Regards,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
nwa330tony
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:03 pm

Sorry but im gonna answer a question with a question. we all know UA's bread winner is the international market, now if they continued to focus on that, Cut domestic interest drastically and took advantage of thier codeshare with US and had them increase flights to UA's hubs while cutting thier international Couldnt this save both airlines??? Yes i know its alot of clauses here but why not use US to provide them with that feed and focus on what the two airlines do best? Im sure they can work out something with thier fleets that can benifit both sides. Also it can decrease the amount of compitition for both and they can start having higher loads which would dramatically help both airlines with thier op cost!
Just my 2 cents hoping some of you can provide some feed back as to why this cannot work!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:15 pm

NWA330TONY: " . . . and took advantage of thier codeshare with US and had them increase flights to UA's hubs . . . "

Interesting theory. . . but I don't see US being around long enough to manage a two - three year transition to what you propose.

Believe me, I don't want to see US go away, too miles still in the bank . . . thought I'd toss that in there before I got whacked . . .
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ATWZW170
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:27 pm

If UA were to focus on long haul flights and international flights, wouldn't that help? Drop the ORD-GRR type flights. Put in nicer regional jets that will still make your Mileage Plus members happy with First Class seating. Flights like ORD-DEN, ORD-LAX, ORD-NYC, those are good money making markets.

UA for sure needs to reduce the number of a/c they fly. Get rid of the 737's!

As for Ted, the reason Ted is a good idea for UA is because by taking out the F class, they are able to add 3-4 more rows of seats, thus getting more rev. I see a lot of upgrades when it comes to domestic flying, I rarely ever see a passenger who has paid for First Class, especially in markets like BOI, CLE, CMH, CVG....all upgrades!

I am interested in seeing how ps service is doing.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
 
avek00
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RE: Could UA Survive Only Internationally?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:12 am

"Cut domestic interest drastically and took advantage of thier codeshare with US and had them increase flights to UA's hubs while cutting thier international Couldnt this save both airlines??? Yes i know its alot of clauses here but why not use US to provide them with that feed and focus on what the two airlines do best? Im sure they can work out something with thier fleets that can benifit both sides. Also it can decrease the amount of compitition for both..."

1. A massive cut in domestic operations would send UA's revenues into the toilet while boosting its unit costs (especially for labor) to shockingly high levels.

2. US' bright spot is its international operations ex-PHL and ex-CLT. The Caribbean/LatAm/European expansion has helped the airline's revenue significantly.

3. The DOJ won't allow UA and US to integrate much more than they currently are. The antitrust regulators will come out of the woodwork if US behaves as a de facto extension of UA, ESPECIALLY if competition is reduced.

[Edited 2004-12-02 17:13:23]
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