pilottj
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If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:14 pm

Hey Folks,

Here is a thought to ponder. This is sort of an extention of the ATC telling off pilots thread as one of the most common errors is simply the language barrier. As we know, English is the common language used for international Aviation. What would aviation be like if another language were to be used? How would it fare economically if it were in say German or Spanish? Please do not take this as a sign of disrespect to other languages, but merely a curiosity on how language effects the industry and vice versa. Certianly a lot of respect goes to those who must learn a second language in order to follow their dream to be a pilot or a controller or an FA or anyone else involved in this complex industry. I think we gringos and native english speakers take for granted how hard language is, especially when learning an industry with so much technical jargon.

CHeers
TJ
God was my copilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him...
 
jasepl
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:05 pm

If it weren't English, it would probably be French. But, considering that no other language has quite the widespread reach that English has, no other language would ever have worked.
 
masseybrown
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:13 pm

I work with a couple of Russians who claim that their English (which is very good) is better than their Russian. They say that formal Russian is fiendishly difficult and is not well spoken even by most Russians. This seems impossible to me, but that's is what they say.

So I guess we can eliminate Russian as a candidate language.
 
ua777222
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:28 pm

I have personally heard IFR clearance, Taxi instructions, and other ground operations in other languages such as Chinese and Spanish but never in the air. I think it would be too dangerous to try to have 2 languages, give it a week and they'll be dropping like flies. If mid-air accidents still happen when they're all speaking English I doubt we'll do better with French. The only issue that I've ever had was with a guy down at CCR who was Asian who couldn't get English down. He would go in between. I know the tower was having issues b/c they had to repeat it to him and told him "if you can't pay attention I'll clear you to runway XX and back to your tiedown." To me it just seems that if a small airport such as CCR can't handle multi-lingual persons that larger airports with more traffic will have even more issues. I was just doing touch and go's with-in the airspace and this guy was freaking me out and when I would ask the tower where he was going and they would come back and give me a "rough idea" it made me want to just set her down and stay down which is what my instructor opted to do. We just held in the run-up area of a runway that wasn't being used. My instructor is a CRJ rated Capt. and did/does fly for a major airline. He said this wouldn't work in the larger airspaces.

Great Question!

Thanks again.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
spacecadet
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:32 pm

What would aviation be like if another language were to be used? How would it fare economically if it were in say German or Spanish?

Spanish is one thing, but German would be pretty much impossible. My family is half-German, and many of them still live there. I don't really speak the language myself (a tiny bit) but from what I understand there are so many dialects that there really isn't even an "official" German language. The dialects differ so much, even from town to town in the same region, that a lot of Germans cannot even understand each other. It's a pretty chaotic language; Germans don't even really think of the language as "German" - they call what they speak by the dialect. Doesn't seem like it'd make a good choice for ATC.

English is still the best choice not because more people speak it in the world than any other language (which isn't the case), but because it's spoken more widely than any other language. In other words, at least some of the people speak English from Japan to the United States to England to Germany to Norway to Israel to Saudi Arabia to China. It's not a universal language by any means, but it's easily the language spoken in the most countries by at least a certain percentage of people.

I can't really think of another language that would work. Can you imagine Asian pilots and ATC trying to speak French? Spanish might be a little easier pronunciation-wise, but not any easier to learn than English (and fewer people would know it already).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
minmiester
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:05 pm

"you imagine Asian pilots and ATC trying to speak French?"

Are u saying Asian pilots and ATC would find it more difficult to learn French (which is still widely understood - to a degree - in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam) than pilots and ATC of other races?  Big grin Careful there :P.

I can't really imagine any other language possessing the widespread acceptance and understanding that English has, and in terms of aviation development, English has been and is the only language possible to be used world-wide for aviation purposes. Now we just have to decide whether its English, American, "Ostrayan" English, "New Zulland" English or "Sooth Afrikun" English  Big grin.

Cheers

MinMiester
 
dbo861
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:36 pm

I always thought one of the main reasons English is the common language was because the United States was the birthplace for aviation. I mean, the fact that English is so widely spoken probably had a lot to do with it too.
 
fraT
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:51 pm

Spacecadet,

I don't know where your relatives live in Germany. But what you are writing is not true at all. Everybody in Germany speaks German. OK, some have dialect but normally you can understand people from Bavaria as well as those from some eastern German states. It just sounds funny.
It's the same like in other countries with lots of different regions. Somebody from Texas also speaks a different kind of English than somebody from New England. Leave alone British English and American English.

But I agree that German wouldn't be a good choice for the universal aviation language. Besides Germany it's only spoken in a handful of other countries.

Cheers
 
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sebolino
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:54 pm

there really isn't even an "official" German language. The dialects differ so much, even from town to town in the same region, that a lot of Germans cannot even understand each other. It's a pretty chaotic language; Germans don't even really think of the language as "German"

English is still the best choice not because more people speak it in the world than any other language (which isn't the case), but because it's spoken more widely than any other language. of people.

I can't really think of another language that would work. Can you imagine Asian pilots and ATC trying to speak French? Spanish might be a little easier pronunciation-wise, but not any easier to learn than English (and fewer people would know it already).


SpaceCadet,

There is a standard German. I don't know where it's spoken , but it exists as far as I know.

About English: Yes, it's widely spoken. The problem is that real English is not. The English spoken by Asians or even common Europeans is awful, and at the minimum very different from the English from London for example.

In fact, I think English is one of the most difficult language to be correctly pronounced, for foreigners, because of the vowels shifted by a half aperture degree.
It's easy to speak bad English and to be understand, but then is it still English or English words with a bad pronouciation ?
 
flyboy1980
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:04 pm

I think the degrees of difference between dialects of European languages (other than English) is much more extreme.

Even though spelling, some words and some pronounciations are different, mother-tongue English speakers world over can understand each other.

Americans may call it a cooler, Aussies an eski and Kiwis a chilly bin - it's still the same item.

I have visited Finland, and while there are few dialects of Finnish, Swedish is also spoken there and it has far more variation. There is a part of Finland that speaks only Swedish, but the dialect is so extreme that while it is written the same as standard Swedish, the way it is spoken is not even close.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:12 pm

I think that in aviation's case that there is a standard version of english. By this I mean that most ATC and Pilots use the same words and structures in their sentences. If this was not the case, then there would be a huge problem. EG with standardised english:

ATC: QANTAS XXX cleared for take off runway XX, winds 20 knots at 6.
Pilot: Roger, cleared for take off QANTAS XXX

Compare this with Ozzie English:

ATC: QANTAS XXX you can go on runway XX, winds from the north and blowing like a teapot
Pilot: Fair Dinkim mate Big grin

 
mozart
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:30 pm

Well, English is THE official language of aviation, but I'ld like to point out that in many cases it isn't used as the sole official language. For instance, in French airspace, ATC speaks French to planes from French-speaking countries (France, Belgium, usually Canada, Luxembourg, all of the Western African countries, Lebanon, French Caribbean, Air Tahiti Nui, etc), and English to all the others. Quite unnerving for non-French speakers I hear.

However, in Germany, ALL radio communication is in English, also with German planes.

In Brazil, I've seen a Justplanes video on GOL, ATC is in Portuguese unless the pilots address ATC in English, in which case the rest of the communication is in English.

Russia the same, Russian to Russian speakers, English for non Russian-speaking foreigners.

I assume it is the same in many parts of the world where most of the traffic is domestic: the domestic langauge is used, Enlgish only with foreigners. In some parts there is rule "domestic language, unless there is at least one non-native speaker, in which case EVERYBODY switches to English" (case in parts of Sweden and also French Caribbean). So I think this applies to large parts of South America, where other than a handful of European and North American carriers everybody speaks Spanish resp. Portuguese. So why use English?

So there you are, I think today's reality is already one where English is the official language for ATC when communicating between people of different native languages, but other than that there are many places where local language is used.
 
LH423
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:14 am

I can tell you one thing. Pilots and aviation personnel would make even more than they do now because adding in pilot and ATC training costs most would also have to add on language training costs as well.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Ken777
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:09 am

I'm lucky enough to be able to take TRW trips on business and max out the places I visit. I am continually impressed with the ability of shopkeepers in various countries to be able to obtain my money by speaking English with no problem. If the shopkeepers can do it then pilots (which we consider to be more intelligent) should be able to do it.

In terms of multiple languages used for ground control - that might work until there is the first accident based on confusion by those that don't speak the local language. Same in crowded skies. I'm simply a pax, but I believe that all planes in the area (in the air or on the ground) should be aware of what instructions are being given to the other planes.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:33 am

The whole thing traces back to the Chicago convention of 1944. Back then the US realised that the end of WW2 was coming closer and invited it´s allied plus neutral countries to a conference about startingair traffic after the war. As a result the ICAO was founded.
There are several official aviation languages, among them English and Russian. I think French is also one. German and Japanese are not included, because these two countries were not invited.
Concerning America invented aviation, this is a big BS. Pre war Britain, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and France had a much bigger aviation industry each than the US. The only reason is that the European aviation industry got more or less clobbered during WW2 and the US one survived, due to their homefront being far away from the fighting. As a result much production of planes and other goods was done in the US, leading to a technological advance.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:12 am

In the end I suppose the key issue, regardless of language, is to have a standardised vocabulary (remember Tenerife 1977). This obviuously doesn't solve the issue of having more than one language, but if, theoretically, you would have selected one language with managable grammar and pronounciation, it would work.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
gigneil
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:15 am

If the official language was French, then very few US flag carriers would still fly outside the United States.

The US education system just doesn't properly emphasize foreign language, nor are many people here bilingual. Being physically distant from most of the other countries in the world, as opposed to Europe where everyone is nearby, dilutes the absolute need for people to speak anything but English.

N
 
MaverickM11
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:43 am

"If the official language was French"

...then that accident in CDG where an MD-80 sliced through a Shorts 360 killing the copilot would not have occurred.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Marambio
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:12 am

Well, in Argentina as everywhere else in Latin America, ATC communications are done in Spanish. ATC guys also speak English, and they speak in Shakespeare's language when the plane isn't from a Spanish-speaking country.

Example: EZE ATC is going to speak in Spanish with the pilot of an Avianca plane coming from Bogotá. On the other side, the same ATC will speak English with a Lufthansa plane coming from Frankfurt.

I know that AR pilots also speak portuñol (a mixture of Portuguese and Spanish) when they ask for clearance at POA, GRU or GIG. Same happens with RG pilots when they communicate with an Argentine ATC.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
anxebla
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:24 am

I wonder if on the Spain-Portugal-Spain flights pilots/ATC speak "portuñol"  Laugh out loud
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
meister808
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:46 am

I think a big part of having English as a common language in many technical fields, including aviation, is the fact that English seems to be the most concise of the major languages. I speak French fairly well and know a small amount of German, and it seems that, with English, plain-out sentence structure is a lot cleaner i.e. in English an approach clearance would be something like

Cessna four four two Golf turn right heading zero eight zero maintain three thousand to the outer marker

and in another language it simply wouldn't be possible to say that without having a lot of excess words in there like

the cessna four four two(with number-words that have more syllables, thereby taking longer) golf turn yourself to right heading zero eight zero maintain yourself three thousand until at the outer marker.

That is probably a poor example, but English just seems simpler.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
legendDC9
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:03 am

Actually, the fact that the official international language is English was a close vote by the league of nations in the 1920's that nearly declared German as the official one. The entire world history since that time could have changed had that gone through.
 
PPVRA
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:03 am

Anxebal,

Likely not... sometimes is easier for me to understand Spanish than Portuguese w/ a Portugal accent.... Strange? yes, but it's true. I think it would be much harder for you to understand someone from portugal than me.

PPVRA

BTW: It took me about 4-5 days to be able to truly understand "Madrileños" (spell?), they speak so fast...but I did it!

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Areopagus
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:31 am

"The sun never sets on the British Empire." That was the saying when Britain governed trade routes and colonies around the globe. Launched from those small home islands, English became the 3rd most widely spoken first language, after Mandarin and Spanish. But most of those Mandarin speakers were concentrated in one place, and the Spanish speaking countries were not so industrialized. I suspect English was the most widely spoken second language even before WWII.

MD11Engineer points out that several European countries had bigger aviation industries before WWII, and that the US home industry didn't get clobbered. Besides that, during and after WWII, the US built loads of airfields around the world, and propagated the VOR navigation systems and other infrastructure.

In a US-Britain agreement, the US produced transport aircraft during the war, to let Britain concentrate on fighters and bombers. This gave the US a leg up on the postwar generation of piston-engined airliners, although this fact doesn't affect the question of English vs. other languages.

But, if the worldwide language of trade had turned out to be something else, there would be a lot more need for Americans to learn a 2nd language. For non-English speakers, there is an obvious advantage to learning English as a second language. For Americans, the choice of 2nd language is not obvious. (Mine is German; my wife and daughters speak Spanish; my son speaks Portuguese; my daughter in law speaks Japanese.)


[Edited 2004-12-02 22:34:47]
 
n506cr
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 am

Hi all.

this is my first post here btw.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
English being the common language for aviation at my opinion is simply a global necessity issue. And the fact that it's spoken in United States has to do a lot with it. I mean, let's say we have a Costa Rican, an Indian and a Japenese. The guy from Costa Rica might never go to India or vice versa, same thing with Japan. But probably all 3 of them might at some point in their life go to United States. Just to come up with an example. If the 'center of the world' was somewhere else, or other language than English had been adopted in the US, probably that'll be the one language spoken. It's just the realistic way to see it.
Now, talking about the native language spoken in some countries, it's no other thing than national proud. I mean, is your backyard bud, you'll do what you're used to. And it's completely fine.
Let's go with an example again:
let's say this world was quite a bit different and the 'center of the world' was... France. The world therefore will 'move' in French. Would an American pilot like to call New York Clearance delivery and ask him for a flight plan approval to Miami in French? I bet no. Therefore, a French pilot wouldn't like to call CDG Clearance and ask the controller if he can go to Nice... in English? definitely no.

In my case, I'd speak Spanish if I was flying in Costa Rica. Though I'm enough open-minded (and hopefully most pilots are) to switch to English if the situation requires so.

The English deal won't change... neither the speaking of the native language in other countries.

Something I want to do if someday become an internatinal pilot is learn the way to make the introduction to the tower in the native language and after that specify to please give further instructions in English. I think that'll be cool.

"Milano suolo buongiorno il American Airlines uno-nove-sete a la cancello cinque presto a... good morning, further instructions in English please" That'll be nice.

We have only one world and we had to find a way to get it together... and due to circustamces, English was the answer. Reminds me of the prayer"grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot changee, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference".

Keep in mind that don't matter where you are, where you fly, or what language you speak, remember that a warm smile is the universal language of kindness.

just my two cents worth here.

saludos;
-Adolfo .:capt_moralesg:.
 
pilottj
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:14 am

Thank you all for your insight,
I think one way to imagine the implications, imagine yourself as a ground school instructor with a class full of non native english speakers, such as a non US airline training center based in the US...ie JAL at KAPC. Those of you who have taught ground classes, please chime in. If you could, would you use Japanese to help explain the use of a GPS or how a localizer beacon works or explaining the FARs. I am sure you would, but would they have to think in their native language to understand the technicalities or can they understand it in english. Perhaps those of you who are not native language speakers can enlighten us too, do you find it is easier to understand the technical aviation stuff in your own language or in english?

CHeers
TJ
God was my copilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him...
 
n506cr
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:10 am

Good question TJ.

Well first I gotta say sorry for my awful spelling last post... I'm really good in grammar but I don't know what happened (I can't believe I worthe national PROUD... I know it's national pride... and circumstances... not circustamces... you know...) ... well I was nervous... my first time replying at the a.net forums (big deal!). Next time there'll be no mistakes --promised.

I can tell you about being a non native speaker. Well even though I'm not a pure native speaker, I do speak perfect English.

would they have to think in their native language to understand the technicalities or can they understand it in english.

your question is very well structured. And I can give you the answer. Yes. As a little child I learned to speak Spanish, and while in the transition to English, and now that I experience it, I know you do need to understand things in your language. And there's a reason: because you THINK in that language. Your brain works with that. So yes, you do understand English, but the key is to know what does that mean in your language, so your brain (you) understands. Is kinda hard to explain. In my case, for example, you tell me something. I do understand you, but that is because I'm able to translate in a fraction of a second what you told me in English to Spanish. Same thing if I want to say something. I'll think something in Spanish, translate it, and say it. It's cool being able to speak two languages, and even though you have to do that every time you hear a single word or you want to say something, it takes the same amount of time to do it. Is also natural and you get used to it.
It's funny because I notice how I think in Spanish, is just natural, a 24 hour thing, even handling English at a 100%. I always wondered what it'd be like to think in English.

I hope this helps. Is really the overall idea of what the language 'deal' is.
Do you speak any other languages?

.:capt_moralesg:.
 
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sebolino
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:40 pm

Well first I gotta say sorry for my awful spelling last post... I'm really good in grammar but I don't know what happened

You mean syntax, not grammar, don't you ?  Big thumbs up
 
N1120A
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:50 pm

>About English: Yes, it's widely spoken. The problem is that real English is not. The English spoken by Asians or even common Europeans is awful, and at the minimum very different from the English from London for example.<

The English spoken by "common" europeans is often better than that of "common" Americans or Brits.

>In fact, I think English is one of the most difficult language to be correctly pronounced, for foreigners, because of the vowels shifted by a half aperture degree.
It's easy to speak bad English and to be understand, but then is it still English or English words with a bad pronouciation ?<

English does have pronounciation issues, particularly with silent letters and the sort, but it is very easy to understand the language when pronounced incorrectly. Also, the more simple gramatical structure makes English much easier to learn than languages like French, German and certainly Russian, and much more suited to the nature of ATC terminology.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fraT
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:39 pm

N506CR,

welcome to a.net!

I agree that in situations, in which no other pilot is involved, ATC might speak in the native language. But as soon as other pilots might be involved the language should be English. As said before LH pilots speak English with German ATC. If they can do that, all other pilots/ATC could do it as well. Especially at international airports. The mentioned accident at CDG could have been avoided if the British pilot would have understood the conversation between ATC and the French pilot. Unfortunately it was in French.
 
quebecair727
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:58 pm

Ground and air-to-air communications are done in both French and English in the province of Québec without any problems since many years and so far I haven't seen any planes falling from the sky likes flies. I even heard anglophone pilots making communications in French with a little accent I must say.

 
EZEIZA
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:37 am

"The US education system just doesn't properly emphasize foreign language, nor are many people here bilingual. Being physically distant from most of the other countries in the world, as opposed to Europe where everyone is nearby, dilutes the absolute need for people to speak anything but English."

i agree with you on the US education system not caring too much on a foreign languaje, but regarding the other part, no offense, but you are forgetting a huge border with Mexico and another one with Canada and yet the average US citizen could care less about learning spanish or french.


[Edited 2004-12-03 21:48:34]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:45 am

This phenomenon is highly region-dependent, I think. I know in my schools (Indiana), we were required to take a foreign language. Choices were French, Spanish, German, Greek, Japanese, and a couple others.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
zrs70
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:21 am

The irony here is that the thread title itself uses poor grammar!

Should be, "If Aviation's Language WERE...."
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
n506cr
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:38 am

"Well first I gotta say sorry for my awful spelling last post... I'm really good in grammar but I don't know what happened"

You mean syntax, not grammar, don't you ?  Big thumbs up
**

not really  Big grin

Gram-mar (n.) - The system of inflections, SYNTAX, and word formation of a language.

By the way, I spelled 'wrote' wrong on that last post. But before I promised no more mistakes  Innocent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

'i agree with you on the US education system not caring too much on a foreign languaje, but regarding the other part, no offense, but you are forgetting a huge border with Mexico and another one with Canada and yet the average US citizen could care less about learning spanish or french."

Believe me that it's not about the US education system EZEIZA. I'm in an AP- (Advanced Placement--gives you college credits while in high school in some states of USA) Honors Spanish IV class at my school. Being the higher level class in the whole school, all the guys there are seniors. And they don't know nothing. Four years in Spanish class (if not 7... some take it since middle school!) and the only thing they know is 'puedo ir al baño' and that really basic stuff. I mean that's totally justifiable, you don't learn a language just by going to your 45-minute class every day. Definitely no. Did you ever happened to have a classmate who learned English in school's English class? In my case I've met only one (a really good friend of mine-me and him were luckily enough to learn). But that's rare cases. Learn a language is something hard for most of the people (I'd say really hard).
Btw I remember my only widebody jumpseating experience being in a SCL-EZE flight. Awesome. Argentina is a really nice country.

"This phenomenon is highly region-dependent, I think. I know in my schools (Indiana), we were required to take a foreign language. Choices were French, Spanish, German, Greek, Japanese, and a couple others."

N328KF, yes. I think in most of the states must be something like that. Here in Pennsylvania you are required to take at least 2 years of a foreign language to be able to graduate. As of my school, French, Italian, German and Spanish are the options. I take Spanish and Italian. And English  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

"N506CR,

welcome to a.net!"


thank you very much FraT!

.:capt_moralesg:.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:39 am

The language of ATC is English numbers and basic aviation terms. A pilot probably only needs to learn the numbers and about 50 words. I don't think the costs would be significant if another language had been chosen. It is the same as regular aviation terminology... you don't use most of the terms until you get involved with aviation, the only different is that instead of learning to say "Flight Level two five zero" you would say "niveau de vol deux cinq zero". English speakers would probably integrate int'l flight speak into the english sentences. What niveau de vol are we at? Deux-cinq-zero.

No big deal in my opinion.
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5025
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:32 am

Det skulle va kanonbra om A.net var på svenska t.ex men då skulle ju ingen begripa vad man skrev.....förutom dansker og normän.

Translation:
Should be great if A.net was in swedish, but no one would understand a word U wrote......maybe danes and norse.

Micke//SE  Big thumbs up
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
ozglobal
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:51 am

>In fact, I think English is one of the most difficult language to be correctly pronounced, for foreigners, because of the vowels shifted by a half aperture degree. - Sebolino

What the...?? Whatever this means, it would surely depend on what 'foreign' language those 'foreigners' natively speak?  Nuts

Does this mean I should be "shifting back by a half aperture degree" to improve my French pronunciation??  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Ozglobal
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:20 am

As much as I love Spanish, it wouldn't make sense to replace English with it or any other language. English speaking crews/ATC make aviation safer and that should be the only important thing to consider. What happened at CDG a few years ago shouldn't happen again. Just my two cents...
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:38 am

"Well first I gotta say sorry for my awful spelling last post... I'm really good in grammar but I don't know what happened"

Believe me that it's not about the US education system EZEIZA. I'm in an AP- (Advanced Placement--gives you college credits while in high school in some states of USA) Honors Spanish IV class at my school. Being the higher level class in the whole school, all the guys there are seniors. And they don't know nothing. Four years in Spanish class (if not 7... some take it since middle school!) and the only thing they know is 'puedo ir al baño' and that really basic stuff. I mean that's totally justifiable, you don't learn a language just by going to your 45-minute class every day. Definitely no. Did you ever happened to have a classmate who learned English in school's English class? In my case I've met only one (a really good friend of mine-me and him were luckily enough to learn). But that's rare cases. Learn a language is something hard for most of the people (I'd say really hard).


After reading your second paragraph, where many grammatical errors occur, I would disagree with your first paragraph. I am a high school teacher and I was also born in a Spanish speaking country. I also teach Spanish in a high school here in California. I have a Spanish III class that would blow your socks off by their ability to speak the language. I am in an area that has very few hispanics so that's not the reason for their success. This kids just try very hard.
The main language for ATC is English because the United States is the birthplace of modern, commercial aviation and they were able to impose their linguistic muscle to their benefit. But, as others have said, I find that the average American could care less about learning another language. I even know many who like to say "you are in America, speak American", which is a comical statement.
A new factor that gives further muscle to the English language is the advent of the internet. While many sites are in other languages, most of the commercially successful websites are in English, including the one we are all writing on, airliners.net.
FLY2LIM

Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
wdleiser
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:40 am

It would probably be German as the United States almost voted German as its official language back when it was created.
 
tnsaf
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:37 am

As an English speaker I have had the opportunity to fly in Quebec where ATC communications were being conducted in French and English simultaneously. Being comfortable in French (though not officially bilingual) it was not too big of an issue to deal with. I quickly caught on to the terminology and felt comfortable with being able to monitor things,

I did have a chance to take one of our Southern neighbors, a pilot, up for a trip in Northern Quebec. The flight went quite well, but at the end of the flight he turned to me and said thanks, but next time he hoped my radio would be working because he couldn't understand a thing! I explained the bilingual ATC and he just walked away shaking his head.

Living down south now I have had more trouble understanding some of the accents around DFW than I ever did with the French ATC!

700 hours and counting...
 
n506cr
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:18 am

FLY2LIM

I definitely have to watch my writing more carefully. I seriously don't know what is going on with me, but every time I write something here (yeah sounds like an excuse but it isn't) I just mess it up. I read it now and I'm surprised how even paragraph structure is a mess. Sorry for that. Seriously, I'm so nervious to make mistakes that I make more (I'm that kind of -afraid to make mistakes- person). It's a.net man... it gets me nervous. I'm sorry on that but I'll try to settle myself so this weird thing stops. Is something I do perfectly everyday so I don't see why I have to make of this forums the exception.

I agree with you that there are guys good at languages. I don't intend to say that kids in school don't learn the language. I just meant that it's not the 'US education system' fault. For most of the people, learning a language is something difficult and, if we talk about high school level, many of the kids take it just because it's required for graduation. I was really dissapointed when I noticed how bad were the guys in my Hon Sp IV class. The 'top class' in school (right...). I hoped to find, as you say, guys that like it and try hard. Well I realized very quickly that I was wrong.
Happening to learn a language is not something usual without a specific reason. Therefore, it's not the fact that the "average AMERICANS could care less about learning a language", average people of any nationality anywhere in the world could care less about learning a language if they don't need it for a specific purpose.

Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes on this post (did I???)

.:capt_moralesg:.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2537
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:41 am

N506CR,

Your English is pretty good - No need to be defensive.

(FLY2LIM made a typo at the end of the paragraph he used to critique your English, so let's see him reply in Spanish and you correct that  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1540
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:41 pm

Concerning America invented aviation, this is a big BS. Pre war Britain, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and France had a much bigger aviation industry each than the US. The only reason is that the European aviation industry got more or less clobbered during WW2 and the US one survived, due to their homefront being far away from the fighting. As a result much production of planes and other goods was done in the US, leading to a technological advance.

Jan

Heard of the Wright Brothers from Dayton, Ohio USA  Smile
 
EZEIZA
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RE: If Aviation's Language Was Other Than English

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:58 am

"Therefore, it's not the fact that the "average AMERICANS could care less about learning a language", average people of any nationality anywhere in the world could care less about learning a language if they don't need it for a specific purpose."

I agree completely, and the average American could care less of learning another languaje because the average American does not have the need of learning. Like it or not, English is the "languaje of the world", even if not the most spoken, so it makes sense that Amercians don't take their time to learn another languaje. On the other hand, in many non-english speaking countries, being fluent in English is a must if you want to have a good job. This, by no means is a criticism to Americans or anyoe else, just an opinion.

Concerning English as the languaje for aviation, I don't see the need of changing it since everyone has adapted to it. If changed now, it will only cause confusion.

regards



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...

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